Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

iguana

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I want what the guy who set up the petition wants - an investigation.

Have you signed and shared the petition yet?

SpaceTime

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Does a mass burial in an unmarked grave = unlawful disposing of body?

Thanks for making the petition Cabaal.

Obviously every single person here wants this matter investigated. This thread is a good thing- anything to create awareness

There is (and always was) a lot of regulation and legislation about disposal of bodies, death certification and all of those things here.

So, legislation even 100 years ago was certainly not lacking in that period when it comes to this issue.

robindch

iguana wrote: »

[...]

Here's my proposed text:

We, the undersigned, call for an judicial investigation into the circumstances surrounding the deaths of 796 children whose bodies lie in a mass grave in Tuam, Co Galway. We understand that the children died while they were in the custody of the Bon Secours Sisters between approximately 1925 and 1961. We are concerned that evidence suggests that the mortality rate for these children was significantly higher than the national rate of infant mortality at the time. And we are shocked at reliable, contemporaneous accounts that the children were malnourished and seemingly uncared-for, when the Irish State was paying the Bon Secours to look after them.

We request that the investigation begin at the earliest possible date and that the final report is made public, in full, when it is complete. We also request that any individual or organization which fails to co-operate fully, and in a timely fashion, with the investigation should be charged with the obstruction of justice.

Flippyfloppy

SeaDaily wrote: »

I would imagine that any remaining parents of these dead children would be significantly more upset by your defence of the RCC than they would by people being justifiable outraged. It is posters such as yourself who are trying to play down this findings as if the RCC was, by some miracle, not directly involved in this atrocity. You are desperately trying to land the blame elsewhere where it just does not belong.

The thing is, these numbers may be few. 800/1600(??) people is not that much when against the government or the catholic church. These children seemed to have been mistreated by those caring for them at the time, and seem to only have a historian speaking for them now.

vibe666

even waterford whispers have a story on it now.

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2014/06/03/bodies-of-800-children-were-just-resting-in-mass-grave-claims-catholic-church/

i was ready to have a go at them for the headline, but when i read the article itself, it's pretty much spot on.

I Heart Internet

iguana wrote: »

Have you signed and shared the petition yet?

No. Will review and announce it to the world here the moment I do.

iguana

I've changed the wording to Robindch's, if anyone knows of a non-copyrighted photo which I can use to illustrate the petition can they let me know.

I Heart Internet

bumper234 wrote: »

Ok

From the details you have so far, making an educated guess, would you still say they were buried? Or dumped?

Did I not just answer this question?

bumper234

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Did I not just answer this question?

So you think the nuns buried them? Ok, Do you think they were buried in a dignified manner? Was a mass said and the child placed in a coffin and buried correctly? Or were they wrapped in a sheet and dropped through a hole in the round?

ryan101

robindch wrote: »

Here's my proposed text:

We, the undersigned, call for an judicial investigation into the circumstances surrounding the deaths of 796 children whose bodies lie in a mass grave in Tuam, Co Galway. We understand that the children died while they were in the custody of the Bon Secours Sisters between approximately 1925 and 1961. We are concerned that evidence suggests that the mortality rate for these children was significantly higher than the national rate of infant mortality at the time. And we are shocked at reliable, contemporaneous accounts that the children were malnourished and seemingly uncared-for, when the Irish State was paying the Bon Secours to look after them.

We request that the investigation begin at the earliest possible date and that the final report is made public, in full, when it is complete. We also request that any individual or organization which fails to co-operate fully, and in a timely fashion, with the investigation should be charged with the obstruction of justice.

Galway County Council requested the Bon Secour order to run the home, and it was run under their supervision. All the records for the home were handed over to the Galway County Council when it closed. So all those records should still be available. Qualified medical staff should also be involved in checking the records.

Flippyfloppy

iguana wrote: »

I've changed the wording to Robindch's, if anyone knows of a non-copyrighted photo which I can use to illustrate the petition can they let me know.

Just looking on Google Images, and came acorss this pic & story. I'm not saying to use this pic, but is this the same grounds I wonder? http://historicgraves.com/blog/miscellanea/probable-workhouse-famine-burials-tuam

A picture of the building could suffice? http://www.globalpost.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/default/photos/2014-June/childrens_home_bodies.jpg

Renegade Mechanic

vibe666 wrote: »

even waterford whispers have a story on it now.

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2014/06/03/bodies-of-800-children-were-just-resting-in-mass-grave-claims-catholic-church/

i was ready to have a go at them for the headline, but when i read the article itself, it's pretty much spot on.

Clever parody of the infamous "Father Ted".
Tbh, even now, Im genuinely stuck for words to say about this. Granted it was almost "the done thing" around the world back then and still is in some places but its a bloody awful thing.

Cabaal

ryan101 wrote: »

Galway County Council requested the Bon Secour order to run the home, and it was also run under their supervision. All the records for the home were handed over to the Galway County Council when it closed. So those records should still be available.

You hope,
Lets hope a random bonfire fire didn't start at some stage....you know, like Sean Ross Abbey had.

Tabnabs

ryan101 wrote: »

Galway County Council requested the Bon Secour order to run the home, and it was run under their supervision. All the records for the home were handed over to the Galway County Council when it closed. So all those records should still be available. Qualified medical staff should also be involved in checking the records.

Have you a source for this information? Because it's at odds with what the researchers have found to date.

ryan101

Cabaal wrote: »

You hope,
Lets hope a random bonfire fire didn't start at some stage....you know, like Sean Ross Abbey had.

Then Galway County Council, and the officials that done so, will also have to face the courts as well.
But it still won't prevent an examination of the bodies and interviewing the former residents and any lay staff still alive.
Nor should it prevent any prosecutions and trials being held to establish guilt, nor should it prevent anyone found guilty from being sent to prison.

shruikan2553

Its amazing how the bible manages to exist. The RCC seems to cause spontaneous combustion to anything written around them.

Cabaal

ryan101 wrote: »

Then Galway County Council, and the officials that done so, will also have a lot of questions to answer.
But it still won't prevent an examination of the bodies and interviewing the former residents and any lay staff still alive.

You know what I meant,
"accidental" fires happening before any records were handed over (if they even were), nuns are very careless with matches it seems.

I Heart Internet

bumper234 wrote: »

So you think the nuns buried them? Ok, Do you think they were buried in a dignified manner? Was a mass said and the child placed in a coffin and buried correctly? Or were they wrapped in a sheet and dropped through a hole in the round?

I'd only be guessing on the details, but I dont think they were buried correctly (without a coffin or grave marker).

ryan101

Cabaal wrote: »

You know what I meant,
"accidental" fires happening before any records were handed over (if they even were), nuns are very careless with matches it seems.

Records have already been found as per the press reports, in the HSE (who took over health from the Council's in the 70's)
The Bon Secours order and Galway County Council, still won't escape their obligations. It still won't prevent an examination of the bodies and interviewing the former residents and any lay staff still alive. Nor should it prevent any prosecutions and trials being held to establish guilt, nor should it prevent anyone found guilty from being sent to prison.

bumper234

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I'd only be guessing on the details, but I dont think they were buried correctly (without a coffin or grave marker).

So they were for all wants and purposes dumped.

I Heart Internet

bumper234 wrote: »

So they were for all wants and purposes dumped.

If you want to use that word, know yourself out. I don't.

mrsbyrne

SeaDaily wrote: »

I would imagine that any remaining parents of these dead children would be significantly more upset by your defence of the RCC than they would by people being justifiable outraged. It is posters such as yourself who are trying to play down this findings as if the RCC was, by some miracle, not directly involved in this atrocity. You are desperately trying to land the blame elsewhere where it just does not belong.

Please direct me to the post on this thread in which I made any defence or made any excuses.

bumper234

I Heart Internet wrote: »

If you want to use that word, know yourself out. I don't.

So if your child were to die tomorrow you would be ok with their body being wrapped in a sheet and dropped into a hole with a load of other bodies? That would be a fitting "burial" for your child?

SeaDaily

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Please direct me to the post on this thread in which I made any defence or made any excuses.

In this thread you have been trying to make out that the church was not involved in this by saying that an investigation has to be carried out before any conclusions can be made. I would view that as a defence of the RCC. I think you would have to be a fool to believe the RCC isn't to blame and I wonder how many cases such as this and how much evidence you need to see to realise that the RCC is at fault here and has been at fault for countless other atrocities in Ireland over the last many decades.

I Heart Internet

bumper234 wrote: »

So if your child were to die tomorrow you would be ok with their body being wrapped in a sheet and dropped into a hole with a load of other bodies? That would be a fitting "burial" for your child?

No. What have I said that would lead you to think that? Are you reading my replies?

marienbad

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No. What have I said that would lead you to think that? Are you reading my replies?

Well your replies just consist of a one liner on repeat , so it is hard to miss them .

I Heart Internet

SeaDaily wrote: »

In this thread......

Mrs B asked for an example post where she defended or offered excuses for what is emerging from Tuam.

SeaDaily wrote: »

..........by saying that an investigation has to be carried out before any conclusions can be made. I would view that as a defence of the RCC.

I would view it as a defence of due process and the search for truth. I would view it as the very least that people in an unmarked grave deserve.

I Heart Internet

marienbad wrote: »

Well your replies just consist of a one liner on repeat , so it is hard to miss them .

So where did I suggest that an unmarked burial, sans coffin was appropriate?

Flippyfloppy

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No. What have I said that would lead you to think that? Are you reading my replies?

Why exactly are you disagreeing with everyone anyway? You seem to want the same thing as everyone else is outraged at the lack of, an investigation.

Yet you don't seem to have written to TD's, reported to the Gardai or created a petition even.

If anything you seem to think that there isn't anything to report.

You just seem to be nit picking everything everyone you perceive to be an atheist says, which comes across that you condone the mass grave to be honest.

bumper234

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No. What have I said that would lead you to think that? Are you reading my replies?

You keep saying these children were buried there, They were not buried in any way shape or form they were DUMPED!