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The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

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    #992
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Timmyctc wrote: »
    Pretty sure you can open PDFs on a PS4. Doesn't make it a game.

    You're misrepresenting the argument there, unless the PDF was created specifically as a choose your own adventure text story using links which would be possible. A normal pdf by itself wouldn't constitute a game.


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    #993
    Timmyctc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭Timmyctc


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    You're misrepresenting the argument there, unless the PDF was created specifically as a choose your own adventure text story using links which would be possible. A normal pdf by itself wouldn't constitute a game.

    If I write several hyperlinked PDFs and market it as a game is it a game?


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    #994
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Timmyctc wrote: »
    If I write several hyperlinked PDFs and market it as a game is it a game?


    yes

    at it's core dungeons and dragons is just paper a pen and a series of rules. Sure it got expanded later with a dice and a lot more rules (the d20 the most common form today was only introduced in 2000)


    depression quest belongs to a long and well established genre. Some of which were originally sold as full on games but can now be played on your browser (http://iplayif.com/?story=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.douglasadams.com%2Fcreations%2Fhhgg.z3)

    Others are still sold via the traditional games route

    which includes steam

    Depression quest is not the first title of this sort to be released on steam yet it's the one that gets ridiculed as *not a game*

    One company specializes in it and charges for its games

    http://store.steampowered.com/app/318310/

    yet they have neither had the attention nor the sheer amount of negative press of depression quest but it does highlight that when you do look at the negative reviews they are mostly tied to the story (http://store.steampowered.com/app/299540/) with almost no *not a game* negative reviews

    Clearly there is an audience and most of them are not questioning if this is a game or not? So frankly one needs to ask why is this a debate that comes up with depression quest but it doesnt pour out into all these other titles (I'll point out they all share a common "choose your own adventure* tag so it's very easy if one was offended by it not being a game to find these titles, yet none of that has happened))

    It may not be *for you* but it's still a game.


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    #995
    Timmyctc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭Timmyctc


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    yes

    at it's core dungeons and dragons is just paper a pen and a series of rules. Sure it got expanded later with a dice and a lot more rules (the d20 the most common form today was only introduced in 2000)


    depression quest belongs to a long and well established genre. Some of which were originally sold as full on games but can now be played on your browser (http://iplayif.com/?story=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.douglasadams.com%2Fcreations%2Fhhgg.z3)

    Others are still sold via the traditional games route

    which includes steam

    Depression quest is not the first title of this sort to be released on steam yet it's the one that gets ridiculed as *not a game*

    One company specializes in it and charges for its games

    http://store.steampowered.com/app/318310/

    yet they have neither had the attention nor the sheer amount of negative press of depression quest but it does highlight that when you do look at the negative reviews they are mostly tied to the story (http://store.steampowered.com/app/299540/) with almost no *not a game* negative reviews

    Clearly there is an audience and most of them are not questioning if this is a game or not? So frankly one needs to ask why is this a debate that comes up with depression quest but it doesnt pour out into all these other titles (I'll point out they all share a common "choose your own adventure* tag so it's very easy if one was offended by it not being a game to find these titles, yet none of that has happened))

    It may not be *for you* but it's still a game.

    No one said a "Choose your adventure" game doesn't exist. Depression Quest isn't one of those.


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    #996
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Timmyctc wrote: »
    No one said a "Choose your adventure" game doesn't exist. Depression Quest isn't one of those.

    Then neither are any of the games by Choice of Games because they unsurprisingly use the exact same system as depression quest.

    But no one is in uproar about them being on steam.

    Go on download the demo for Choice for deathless (http://store.steampowered.com/app/318320/)


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    #997
    Augmerson
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,162 ✭✭✭Augmerson


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    The guy's a complete arsehole. Gives out about the ethics of journalism while spouting whatever sh¡te he feels like whether it has any basis in reality or not. You need to get out more if you think he's where it's at.

    I was hoping you'd reply to me asking about why you thought Internet Aristocrat is full of ****e and is lying. Any chance? I'm curious.


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    #998
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,364 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Timmyctc wrote: »
    If I write several hyperlinked PDFs and market it as a game is it a game?

    Myst was pretty much built on a web browser engine.
    Untitled Image




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    #999
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Augmerson wrote: »
    I was hoping you'd reply to me asking about why you thought Internet Aristocrat is full of ****e and is lying. Any chance? I'm curious.

    Basically, it seems he can say whatever he likes, no matter how potentially libellous, in that video without feeling the need to follow the ethics of journalism that he thinks should be the cornerstone of the games websites he castigates. The guy is a total hypocrite.


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    #1000
    Status Offline
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭Status Offline


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Basically, it seems he can say whatever he likes, no matter how potentially libellous, in that video without feeling the need to follow the ethics of journalism that he thinks should be the cornerstone of the games websites he castigates. The guy is a total hypocrite.

    ...and if challenged about not upholding journalistic ethics, these guys respond by saying that they aren't journalists, so the same standards shouldn't apply to them. The irony of the whole thing is that no one involved in any of this could even slightly be considered a journalist. "Games Journalism" doesn't exist.It's an industry made up of promotional writers, commentators, bloggers and wanna be writers.Not saying that that's a bad thing, just that they aren't journalists,at least in the general sense of the word.....maybe reporters at a push but really covering the marketing of toys or giving your opinion on something isn't journalism.


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    #1001
    K.O.Kiki
    Registered Users Posts: 18,707 ✭✭✭✭K.O.Kiki


    Quit focusing on whether Depression Quest is a game.

    Focus on whether it's actually good, and should have been given such press coverage & praise.


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    #1002
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    K.O.Kiki wrote: »
    Quit focusing on whether Depression Quest is a game.

    Focus on whether it's actually good, and should have been given such press coverage & praise.

    It's a weird one, COYVB thinks the writing is excellent but doesn't think it's a game whereas I think it is a game but I felt that the writing was slightly clumsy and inauthentic and while I understood the increasingly linear narrative of the game, I found myself becoming less involved in the game as the it didn't resonate for me.


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    #1003
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    K.O.Kiki wrote: »
    Quit focusing on whether Depression Quest is a game.

    Focus on whether it's actually good, and should have been given such press coverage & praise.
    When looking at the press coverage and praise it received I think it's important to draw a distinction between what it received based upon its own merit and what it received as a consequence of its appearance on Greenlight and more recent events.

    I mean, if you look at the Press & Testimonials section of the game's website, the links available point to coverage from the games initial release back in 2013. Most of the articles are fairly reasonable and the responses wholly measured. Rather than more traditional reviews, they mainly take the form of either short pieces focusing on the existence of a game with such an unfamiliar subject matter and the writers reaction to both the subject matter and its treatment of it. Others focus on its existence as part of a wider array of games dealing with similarly abstract topics, commenting quite briefly on the game itself. What's also worth doing, and I rarely say this, is reading the comments attached to these articles. They appear to be overwhelming positive in their support for not only the game in the context of its handling of depression but also on the various publications for choosing to cover such titles. Granted there are some negative opinions too but given the rather personalized nature of the subject matter in question, that's a perfectly reasonable thing to happen.

    On the other hand, most of the coverage the game has received since the Greenight process has been a byproduct of the criticism of Quinn herself. While it did lead to the game getting exposure from a few additional publications, it appears to have been significantly offset by the highly negative and often far from relevant user feedback on both Metacritic and Steam, the bulk of the former coming, unsurprisingly enough, after August 19th.


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    #1004
    Generic Dreadhead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    ^ This is a fair point IMHO


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    #1005
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    Jim has words on the topic of is/is not a game.


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    #1006
    COYVB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,660 ✭✭✭COYVB


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    It's a weird one, COYVB thinks the writing is excellent but doesn't think it's a game whereas I think it is a game but I felt that the writing was slightly clumsy and inauthentic and while I understood the increasingly linear narrative of the game, I found myself becoming less involved in the game as the it didn't resonate for me.

    I think I found the narrative to be well executed because my wife suffers with bi-polar disorder, so I can certainly see the accuracy and heartfeltness of the whole thing across the board


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    #1007
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    COYVB wrote: »
    I think I found the narrative to be well executed because my wife suffers with bi-polar disorder, so I can certainly see the accuracy and heartfeltness of the whole thing across the board

    Obviously everyone's experience of depression is different and I understand why they probably went for the narrative that they did but I felt it was soulless and didn't really convey the experience of depression very well imo. It felt worthy without having much value.

    I have different family members suffer from depression over the years and helped as best I could through it - one telling me in particular everything they suffered through. I remember reading this linked from boards a little while ago and thinking 'This conveys everything that she was telling me about!'

    http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.ie/2011/10/adventures-in-depression.html

    http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.ie/2013/05/depression-part-two.html

    I was knocked sideways by reading that. Depression Quest just didn't hit me on any level, I'll be honest.


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    #1008
    Generic Dreadhead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    kunst nugget wrote: »

    http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.ie/2011/10/adventures-in-depression.html

    http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.ie/2013/05/depression-part-two.html.

    These articles made me buy her book :o


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    #1009
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Cormac... wrote: »
    These articles made me buy her book :o

    I honestly didn't know she had a book. I think I'll be picking that up.


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    #1010
    Generic Dreadhead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    I honestly didn't know she had a book. I think I'll be picking that up.

    Just an FYI it's just a collection of her other blog posts (plus a few bonus exclusive ones), which while funny, have literally nothing to do with depression, so don't expect more of the same, but **** me if it ain't just god damn laugh out loud funny

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hyperbole-Half-Unfortunate-Situations-Mechanisms/dp/0224095374/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412095100&sr=8-1&keywords=hyperbole+and+a+half

    So technically you can read it all online via the dates on the right hand side, but sometimes it's nice to have the book itself

    In face i truly believe the depression is what stopped her being the great creative force she was.
    There was a BIG gap before her 1st depression post, a big one before the 2nd and she's only done 1 more since and it was a bit forced.
    (check the dates)


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    #1011
    COYVB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,660 ✭✭✭COYVB


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Depression Quest just didn't hit me on any level, I'll be honest.

    Nor I, however I don't necessarily think it was supposed to. I took it that it was meant to feel completely detached. You're supposed to be experiencing it from the sufferer's viewpoint, rather than as a non-sufferer, so the distance, coldness and sense of irrelevance really ticked the boxes for me.

    Of course that's just my own personal view on it. In that respect I thought it did a fine job. I don't think you're SUPPOSED to really feel anything while working through it


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    #1012
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    COYVB wrote: »
    Nor I, however I don't necessarily think it was supposed to. I took it that it was meant to feel completely detached. You're supposed to be experiencing it from the sufferer's viewpoint, rather than as a non-sufferer, so the distance, coldness and sense of irrelevance really ticked the boxes for me.

    Of course that's just my own personal view on it. In that respect I thought it did a fine job. I don't think you're SUPPOSED to really feel anything while working through it

    I think that's fair enough. Stuff that experiments with narrative like is going to resonate with some people and not with others - I was one of the others. It's an interesting enough concept but didn't quite pull it off for me.


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    #1013
    Augmerson
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,162 ✭✭✭Augmerson


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Basically, it seems he can say whatever he likes, no matter how potentially libellous, in that video without feeling the need to follow the ethics of journalism that he thinks should be the cornerstone of the games websites he castigates. The guy is a total hypocrite.

    He includes photos of conversations, posts and messages in all of his videos as evidence, he does back up his statements, or else links to videos or soundcloud. Is there a specific point you think he has lied on? Maybe that would help


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    #1014
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Augmerson wrote: »
    He includes photos of conversations, posts and messages in all of his videos as evidence, he does back up his statements, or else links to videos or soundcloud. Is there a specific point you think he has lied on? Maybe that would help

    He suggests that she used sexual favours to suppress negative publicity, takes a tweet as proof that she sexually harassed someone, throws out the notion that hey, maybe she fooked Phil Fish and the editor of Kotaku is fooking Anita Sarkeesian. And I'm totally unsure what he was trying to get at with the Wizardchan thing being a Hocus Pocus site... was it a gentle pisstake or what?

    I'll be honest, after forcing myself to listen to it again, I get a fierce bang of Tea Party off it and with what I've been reading about that Breitbart site, there's something very odd going on in that end of things.

    I'll be honest - I spun around this issue like a revolving door, trying to weigh up all the good points that have been raised from both sides from the likes of Johnny Ultimate and COYVB and I don't really believe anyone that's involved at the centre of the whole controversy and I dislike the appropriation of the facts by the different sides to push whatever agenda they choose, be it sexism, ethics, feminazis, etc. But I really dislike that IA guy - he is utterly repellent.


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    #1015
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,320 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    He suggests that she used sexual favours to suppress negative publicity, takes a tweet as proof that she sexually harassed someone, throws out the notion that hey, maybe she fooked Phil Fish and the editor of Kotaku is fooking Anita Sarkeesian. And I'm totally unsure what he was trying to get at with the Wizardchan thing being a Hocus Pocus site... was it a gentle pisstake or what?

    I'll be honest, after forcing myself to listen to it again, I get a fierce bang of Tea Party off it and with what I've been reading about that Breitbart site, there's something very odd going on in that end of things.

    I'll be honest - I spun around this issue like a revolving door, trying to weigh up all the good points that have been raised from both sides from the likes of Johnny Ultimate and COYVB and I don't really believe anyone that's involved at the centre of the whole controversy and I dislike the appropriation of the facts by the different sides to push whatever agenda they choose, be it sexism, ethics, feminazis, etc. But I really dislike that IA guy - he is utterly repellent.

    She accused that site of herassing her. He links their response which seems to be that they have no idea what shes on about or why they would. Thats a really odd one as there seems to be no motivation or connection between the site and her.

    His accusations are intentionally over the top to highlight the unknown relationship/friendship between the people involved.


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    #1016
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    She accused that site of herassing her. He links their response which seems to be that they have no idea what shes on about or why they would. That a really odd one as there seems to be no motivation or connection between the site and her.

    His accusations are intentionally over the top to highlight the unknown relationship/friendship between the people involved.

    I was confused that he called Wizardchan a website for Hocus Pocus fanatics and doctored the homepage for some reason. What was that about?

    It doesn't matter if they are intentionally over the top, they are purposely being used to further the notion that women involved in tech are fooking to get ahead and being hypocrites. A paper could not print them because it would leave them wide open to libel and claims of defamation. Websites would also shut down conversation like this because of how it leaves them open to legal action and not because of some conspiracy. Boards has had the threat of legal action in the past because of some of the threads on the likes of After Hours - Alison O'Riordan was at the centre of some of them iirc. The fact of the matter is that for all his bs about journalist ethics, he has no problems with defaming people and making insinuations that are most likely completely false to get across whatever point he's raving about.


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    #1017
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    The fact of the matter is that for all his bs about journalist ethics, he has no problems with defaming people and making insinuations that are most likely completely false to get across whatever point he's raving about.


    Is he a journalist though? Should he be subject to the same expectation of integrity?

    Yes his suggestions are probably false and he knows this. He was using hyperbole to point out how ludicrous he felt the situation is.


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    #1018
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,320 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    I was confused that he called Wizardchan a website for Hocus Pocus fanatics and doctored the homepage for some reason. What was that about?

    It doesn't matter if they are intentionally over the top, they are purposely being used to further the notion that women involved in tech are fooking to get ahead and being hypocrites. A paper could not print them because it would leave them wide open to libel and claims of defamation. Websites would also shut down conversation like this because of how it leaves them open to legal action and not because of some conspiracy. Boards has had the threat of legal action in the past because of some of the threads on the likes of After Hours - Alison O'Riordan was at the centre of some of them iirc. The fact of the matter is that for all his bs about journalist ethics, he has no problems with defaming people and making insinuations that are most likely completely false to get across whatever point he's raving about.

    Didnt she accuse wizardchan of attacking her too without proof? Didnt she attack FYCs project on very shakey grounds.

    No one deserves to be subject to harasment but I find her own actions as pretty low too.


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    #1019
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    Is he a journalist though? Should he be subject to the same expectation of integrity?

    Yes his suggestions are probably false and he knows this. He was using hyperbole to point out how ludicrous he felt the situation is.

    So he expects integrity from others that he wouldn't expect from himself and then calls others hypocrites for not upholding that integrity? Seems very odd to me…


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    #1020
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    Didnt she accuse wizardchan of attacking her too without proof? Didnt she attack FYCs project on very shakey grounds.

    No one deserves to be subject to harasment but I find her own actions as pretty low too.

    No doubt she's a tool. She wouldn't be someone I'd want to hang around with and some of her actions have been questionable at best but some of the claims in the IA videos are pretty ludicrous and his manner of presenting the information is really sh¡tty.


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    #1021
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    So he expects integrity from others that he wouldn't expect from himself and then calls others hypocrites for not upholding that integrity? Seems very odd to me…

    Well if someone presents themselves as a journalist they should be expected to adhere to that set of ethics.

    Does IA present himself as one, and if not he can't be a hypocrite for not living up to standards that don't apply to him.


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