Are they demanding too much?

smash

Dravokivich wrote: »

I have an issue primarily with Public/National schools being utilised as training centres for a Religious grouping.

But it's an opt in system. The children don't have to take part. A lot of schools don't even have a nativity play any more, they'll do something like the grinch who stole christmas because lets face it, it's not about 'christ' any more, it's about Santa Clause and presents!

TwoShedsJackson

smash wrote: »

But it's an opt in system. The children don't have to take part. A lot of schools don't even have a nativity play any more, they'll do something like the grinch who stole christmas because lets face it, it's not about 'christ' any more, it's about Santa Clause and presents!

How 'opt in' is it when 93% of the schools in this State are Catholic?

Dravokivich

smash wrote: »

But it's an opt in system. The children don't have to take part. A lot of schools don't even have a nativity play any more, they'll do something like the grinch who stole christmas because lets face it, it's not about 'christ' any more, it's about Santa Clause and presents!

It's more of an opt out. when we are talking of kids needing to be excused from something.

If it was opt in, you'd be excused to take part.

smash

FTA69 wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself on a number of levels.

On one hand you're arguing about a "Catholic society" and how people should put up with a Catholic ethos in schools and on the other you're arguing for a secular system and glad that religious fervour in Ireland is fading.

No, I'm saying that it's fading out fast and communion etc is an opt in system and that while it's in a transition period the minorites should deal with it. Because there's no point replacing one with another.

FTA69 wrote: »

And on another point, Catholic dominance in the Irish education system is not gradually fading away. Like other examples of religion embedded in the fabric of the state, it only gets removed when people struggle and campaign against it. Yours is an attitude that prevents change from taking place.

No it's not. I have zero interest in the church and couldn't care less about it's practices. It is fading fast and within the schooling system it's practices are opt in, not opt out! Like it or not, it's part of our history as a nation and a lot of people still practice so while it's being phased out I don't think introducing new practices is acceptable.

FTA69 wrote: »

Lastly, you are not under attack by Muslims or anything. Most of them want to peacefully get on in Irish society and are doing that on a daily basis.

And there's a large group who still think they have religious rights when they don't, so why give them an opportunity to continue it?

Irish Stones

Grayson wrote: »

So Dev was an american? And I'm English. Even though my parents, grand parents etc are Irish and I just happened to be born abroad because my parents just happened to be there at the time.

De Valera was Irish, he was born in New York to Irish parents, so he was Irish.
If your whole family is Irish you are Irish, even though you were born in Liverpool.
This I said.
Have I misunderstood something of your post?

smash

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

How 'opt in' is it when 93% of the schools in this State are Catholic?

Because the children don't have to engage in the practices!

Dravokivich wrote: »

It's more of an opt out. when we are talking of kids needing to be excused from something.

If it was opt in, you'd be excused to take part.

It's opt in. Are you making your communion? No? ok then. It's not like "You're going to mass unless your parents excuse you"

Siipina

FTA69 wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself on a number of levels.

On one hand you're arguing about a "Catholic society" and how people should put up with a Catholic ethos in schools and on the other you're arguing for a secular system and glad that religious fervour in Ireland is fading.

And on another point, Catholic dominance in the Irish education system is not gradually fading away. Like other examples of religion embedded in the fabric of the state, it only gets removed when people struggle and campaign against it. Yours is an attitude that prevents change from taking place.

Lastly, you are not under attack by Muslims or anything. Most of them want to peacefully get on in Irish society and are doing that on a daily basis.

Are you sure our society is not under attack? Why are they demanding in every country in Europe to change laws and complain about their christian culture? It doesn't matter if it is catholic, protestant or Lutheran. Our laws and way of life are since thousand years in the way of christian belief. If you like it or not or think it is good or not. This is the culture. Now they come and demand a whole culture to chance and on the same time the kill Christians in Islamic states because they are not muslim. You know in the Koran are 1800 orders of Mohammed to kill non Muslims ? And that every country in the world should be an Islamic state? For sure they are working on it.

FTA69

Again you're peddling the notion that Catholicism is gradually falling away as a result of some natural process. It isn't. It is occurring because people have campaigned for decades in order to force numerous referendums on the subject. Removing the church from Irish education will entail significant political change that will be brought about by action. It isn't 'just happening'.

It is fading fast and within the schooling system it's practices are opt in, not opt out!

That's not the case at all mate. It's definitely opt-out and priests still sit on numerous governing bodies all over the country.

Irish Stones

osarusan wrote: »

Il Duce, you're alive!

I thought you were dead.

If a boy is born in Milan to two parents from Rome, that boy can't define himself as a "milanese", he will be always of Roman origins.
It's not only me thinking this way.
Where I work we are all Italians, all born here in Turin but from different origins because our parents came here in Turin from all over the country many years ago. Our parents, hence, weren't native.
Some colleagues of mine were born to native parents.
None of these collegues would accept me, or other persons born to non-native parents, as "torinesi", and would surely laugh if I defined myself as such.
So, it's not a matter of Duce or else, it's history of the family.

Dravokivich

smash wrote: »

It's opt in. Are you making your communion? No? ok then. It's not like "You're going to mass unless your parents excuse you"

The default answer to your question is generally expected to be and considered Yes, particularly in a Catholic school. You have to make a point of No, meaning you are opting out. You are requesting to be excused and excluded from the activities set out by the Catholic school.

You opt in to be removed?

jaykay74

Irish Stones wrote: »

Balotelli plays in Italy and feels Italian, but he's not Italian, whatever he says.
He was born to non Italian parents, he's been naturalized.
I was born in Italy to Italian parents, who were born to Italian parents and so on. I live in Italy and I am and feel Italian, of course.
I live in Northern Italy, but my parents emigrated from the south of Italy in the 60's, so they are "southern" and so am I, though I was born here where I lived all my life.
I don't consider myself a "northern", and I cannot claim to be, because my origins weren't from here. Nobody who has been "northern" for generations would accept me being "northern". And I agree with them.
So, doesn't matter where you are born or whether you received a new citizenship, you are what your origins are.

If you stay in the north and have kids in Northern Italy are they "northern" or "southern" ?

osarusan

smash wrote: »

Because it boils down to the fact that like I've just mentioned: if you want no religions in schools then don't let the minorities creep in while you're trying to take down the main one because by the time Catholicism is faded out, there'll be others there who'll then refuse to change because they have their own religious rights!

The notion that the inevitable consequence of eliminating Catholic religion from the curriculum will be that other, more extreme religions will creep in, is complete nonsense.

The consequence of eliminating religion from the curriculum is that there will be no religious classes of any kind, and no reason for people of other religions to mention discrimination.

FTA69

Siipina wrote: »

Are you sure our society is not under attack?

Pretty positive yeah. There are plenty damaging influences in Irish society and I wouldn't rank the Islamic community as particularly high on that list. What this man has said is a load of crap no doubt, but at the end of the day what he's asking for is that Muslim students in schools be afforded religious respect the same way Catholic students in schools are. He pointed out that one religion is prioritised over the other and is saying "us too."

Now I disagree with him because I think none of it has a place there; not because Catholicism is inherently more positive or anything.

Why are they demanding in every country in Europe to change laws and complain about their christian culture?

Who are they? The country I live in has a substantial Muslim population and the vast, vast majority live their lives normally and make a huge contribution to society in a variety of fields.

It doesn't matter if it is catholic, protestant or Lutheran. Our laws and way of life are since thousand years in the way of christian belief.

So what? I shouldn't be allowed to get divorced or use condoms because Ireland was "traditionally" a Catholic country? B*llocks to that. That isn't a republic, that's something else entirely. No republic or state of the people should be infused with religion and no one church should be placed at the heart of the state or its constitution. That goes for Islam, Christianity or whatever else.

If you like it or not or think it is good or not. This is the culture

Who says? I'm Irish born and raised and I think Catholicism is a load of crap. I resent that a supposed pluralist republic has a history of banning books, criminalising gays and forcing women to quit their jobs and refused them contraception. And make no mistake, that's what your "Christian culture" has traditionally entailed in Ireland until very recently.

You know in the Koran are 1800 orders of Mohammed to kill non Muslims ?

More nonsense. I have a copy of the Qu'ran on my desk and can't find anywhere near 1800 surahs going on about murdering non-believers. Traditionally Islam has been more tolerant of differing faiths than Christianity has if you want to go back to that period of time.

Siipina

osarusan wrote: »

The notion that the inevitable consequence of eliminating Catholic religion from the curriculum will be that other, more extreme religions will creep in, is complete nonsense.

The consequence of eliminating religion from the curriculum is that there will be no religious classes of any kind, and no reason for people of other religions to mention discrimination.

That wont work, humans always need religion. Its doesnt matter which one but there will always be one. Even Neanderthals had some kind of religion. If you take it away some other one will be there for sure.

smash

FTA69 wrote: »

Again you're peddling the notion that Catholicism is gradually falling away as a result of some natural process.

No I'm not. There's been a lot of work for it to get this far, by stating that it's fading, it doesn't mean that I'm alluding to it happening or natural process!

osarusan wrote: »

The notion that the inevitable consequence of eliminating Catholic religion from the curriculum will be that other, more extreme religions will creep in, is complete nonsense.

No it's not, this is what's being called for. The elimination of religion in schools while Muslims get special treatment!

osarusan wrote: »

The consequence of eliminating religion from the curriculum is that there will be no religious classes of any kind, and no reason for people of other religions to mention discrimination.

Beyond junior school there are now religion classes which teach about religions, not preach about the catholic church.

The_Captain

Irish Stones wrote: »

De Valera was Irish, he was born in New York to Irish parents, so he was Irish.
If your whole family is Irish you are Irish, even though you were born in Liverpool.
This I said.
Have I misunderstood something of your post?

I'm Irish because my dad is Irish.

He's Irish because my grandad was Irish.

He's Irish because my great-grandad was Irish.

He's Irish because my great-great-grandad was Irish.

My great-great-great grandad was born in the UK and moved over here as a child, so he's not really Irish, he's English.

But then that means my great-great-grandad was English because his dad was English

And my great-grandad was English because his dad was English

And my grandad was English because his dad was English

And my dad is English because my grandad was English

And that makes me English, even though I was born here, my dad, my grandad, my great-grandad and my great-great-grandad were all born here.

Where do I get my passport?

Irish Stones

jaykay74 wrote: »

If you stay in the north and have kids in Northern Italy are they "northern" or "southern" ?

My wife's parents are from an area near Venice.
The kids would be of mixed origins and living in the north.
My mother has been living here for 52 years now. Should she consider herelf "naturalized" to "torinese"? I don't think so...

seamus

smash wrote: »

Because the children don't have to engage in the practices!

O RLY?

That is far from an isolated example. Children, parents and even teachers have been punished, ostracised, expelled and fired for "not engaging" in religious practices.

osarusan

smash wrote: »

No it's not, this is what's being called for. The elimination of religion in schools while Muslims get special treatment!

Where was this called for?

Nodin

Irish Stones wrote: »

I have to admit that I'm glad to read so many replies all oriented the same direction.
Here in Italy we had some cases of people from other countries who asked to remove all crucifixes from the schoolrooms walls because they were interfering with the education they were giving to their own children......

You've a source for that?

Irish Stones

The_Captain wrote: »

Where do I get my passport?

A non-written rule over here says that after seven generations your status changes.
Your passport is a totally different matter, it's issued by an authority, the same authority who naturalizes a person after the legal requirements are met.

Dravokivich

Siipina wrote: »

That wont work, humans always need religion. Its doesnt matter which one but there will always be one. Even Neanderthals had some kind of religion. If you take it away some other one will be there for sure.

No one posting here is looking to remove religion from soceity outright. To do so would be folly.

endacl

Siipina wrote: »

That wont work, humans always need religion. Its doesnt matter which one but there will always be one. Even Neanderthals had some kind of religion. If you take it away some other one will be there for sure.

Bollocks. Humans have always sought 'explanation'. We don't need to make stuff up any more. We know how and why thunder happens.

conorhal

I'm curious why this Dr Selim still has a job lecturing in Trinity. Has his academic employer made any comment on the matter?
This is a university who's student union demanded a boycott of all Iraeli academics and went into meltdown and threatened to riot if Nick Griffin was permitted to take part in a debate at the university, yet they seem oddly quiet on the matter of this particular viper in their nest.

Can you imagine the reaction if some conservative catholic lecturer from the theology department published a book like this and suggested that Trinity should segregate male an female students? His feet wouldn't touch the ground between his office and the front door!

FTA69

Dravokivich wrote: »

No one posting here is looking to remove religion from soceity outright. To do so would be folly.

F*ck that, I am.

smash

seamus wrote: »

O RLY?

That is far from an isolated example. Children, parents and even teachers have been punished, ostracised, expelled and fired for "not engaging" in religious practices.

Well that is very wrong but I'd wonder if the school was a state school run by teachers or one run by priests/nuns. Because there's going to be obvious differences in how they teach etc. If it's run by teachers I'd like to think you could take a case against the school but I'm sure they could easily just say "It's a catholic school". But at the end of the day it's a discussion that needed to take place before agreeing on sending the child to the school.

Like I mentioned earlier I have a friend who sent her son to a state catholic school and before doing so she spoke to the principle about her and his beliefs and was told that it wasn't an issue and there were other children in the same boat.

Irish Stones

Nodin wrote: »

You've a source for that?

For what? For the cases of the people who made such requests?
It's local (Italian) history, you can find something here
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esposizione_del_crocifisso_nelle_aule_scolastiche_italiane
but it's in Italian,
Scroll down to "Casi Giurisprudenziali"
There's something else here, in English
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautsi_v._Italy

Dravokivich

FTA69 wrote: »

F*ck that, I am.

Ok, other than you and enda, or whoever else might thank your post.

jaykay74

Irish Stones wrote: »

A non-written rule over here says that after seven generations your status changes.
Your passport is a totally different matter, it's issued by an authority, the same authority who naturalizes a person after the legal requirements are met.

When you say 7 generations if it turned out you great great great grandmother was born in Austria say would that feck things up for you being a pure bred Italian ? You would then be mixed origin I guess unless you can get the Austrian line out of the gene pool over time or...?

nukin_futs

To encourage Muslims’ participation “a portion of these activities should be neutral and avoid religious references and connotations,” he suggests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS7-jcsB_WQ

endacl

Dravokivich wrote: »

Ok, other than you and enda, or whoever else might thank your post.

Ok. Aside from government and education, I don't want it 'removed' as such. I'm happy to watch it wither on the vine though.

strobe

anncoates wrote: »

It raises conflicting reactions for me.

Personally I find the idea of children (or adults) wearing the burqa distasteful but I don't think it should be banned. Ideally I'd like to see a secular democracy and education system where expression of faith is tolerated. He has a point though whereby you can hardly criticize when the education system here gives such blatant favour to anther religion.

Personally, I'd defend the right of people to practice their fault and have it accommodated t a certain extent but I really would not be happy about interactions with Muslim adults (as outlined in the article) being governed by what are basically sexist principles at the behest of religion.

Freudian slip?

Nodin

Irish Stones wrote: »

For what? For the cases of the people who made such requests?
It's local (Italian) history, you can find something here
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esposizione_del_crocifisso_nelle_aule_scolastiche_italiane
but it's in Italian,
Scroll down to "Casi Giurisprudenziali"
There's something else here, in English
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautsi_v._Italy

ty.

smash

osarusan wrote: »

Where was this called for?

Crucifix should be removed from school uniforms. But Muslims should be allowed wear a Burka or Hijab. I also know of large companies based in Ireland who are not allowed put up christmas trees because it's offensive to other religions, yet these religions protested to get their own prayer rooms! wtf like....

Nodin

endacl wrote: »

Ok. Aside from government and education, I don't want it 'removed' as such. I'm happy to watch it wither on the vine though.

Indeed.

No religion in schools = no need to accommodate any religion.

Religion in schools = everybody has to be accommodated to some extent or other.

Were it the former case, the good Dr would be wasting his time.

Irish Stones

jaykay74 wrote: »

When you say 7 generations if it turned out you great great great grandmother was born in Austria say would that feck things up for you being a pure bred Italian ? You would then be mixed origin I guess unless you can get the Austrian line out of the gene pool over time or...?

Can't answer your question, I said that it's a non written rule that applies in several situations, I haven't said that I know how it works
It's something that I always heard of.

endacl

Nodin wrote: »

Indeed.

No religion in schools = no need to accommodate any religion.

Religion in schools = everybody has to be accommodated to some extent or other.

Were it the former case, the good Dr would be wasting his time.

He's wasting his time anyway. He has a doctorate in fairytales.

Siipina

FTA69 wrote: »

Siipina wrote: »

Pretty positive yeah. There are plenty damaging influences in Irish society and I wouldn't rank the Islamic community as particularly high on that list. What this man has said is a load of crap no doubt, but at the end of the day what he's asking for is that Muslim students in schools be afforded religious respect the same way Catholic students in schools are. He pointed out that one religion is prioritised over the other and is saying "us too."

Yep and you give them a finger and they take the whole hand. There are cities in Germany were they dont have a Christmas market anymore because its offending Muslims.

Now I disagree with him because I think none of it has a place there; not because Catholicism is inherently more positive or anything.





So what? I shouldn't be allowed to get divorced or use condoms because Ireland was "traditionally" a Catholic country? B*llocks to that. That isn't a republic, that's something else entirely. No republic or state of the people should be infused with religion and no one church should be placed at the heart of the state or its constitution. That goes for Islam, Christianity or whatever else.

I dont think this threat is here to discuss what kind of things in are good or bad. For sure its not only about Ireland. The way we all were bought up are our culture, with the good and bad things.

Who says? I'm Irish born and raised and I think Catholicism is a load of crap. I resent that a supposed pluralist republic has a history of banning books, criminalising gays and forcing women to quit their jobs and refused them contraception. And make no mistake, that's what your "Christian culture" has traditionally entailed in Ireland until very recently.

yeah great so just remove the one religion and put the other one on its place.


More nonsense. I have a copy of the Qu'ran on my desk and can't find anywhere near 1800 surahs going on about murdering non-believers. Traditionally Islam has been more tolerant of differing faiths than Christianity has if you want to go back to that period of time.

Oh yeah they are so tolerant, sure. You can see it now in Irak and Syria oh and the Sharia, such a very tolerant law. Thank god that they dont have a history of banning books, criminalising gays and forcing women to quit their jobs and refused them contraception. Oh sorry thats was your words to describe Catholicism.

osarusan

smash wrote: »

Crucifix should be removed from school uniforms. But Muslims should be allowed wear a Burka or Hijab.

When you talked about calls for the elimination of Catholicism from schools but giving muslims special treatment, is this your evidence?

Do you equate removing crucifixes from uniforms with eliminating Catholicism from schools?

Irish Stones

Nodin wrote: »

ty.

Do these two letters mean anything?

endacl

Irish Stones wrote: »

Do these two letters mean anything?

Plen

The_Valeyard

FTA69 wrote: »

F*ck that, I am.

The above post is just as bad as extreme dogmatic religious people who wish to impose there views on society. More or less bigotry.

The_Captain

conorhal wrote: »

I'm curious why this Dr Selim still has a job lecturing in Trinity. Has his academic employer made any comment on the matter?
This is a university who's student union demanded a boycott of all Iraeli academics and went into meltdown and threatened to riot if Nick Griffin was permitted to take part in a debate at the university, yet they seem oddly quiet on the matter of this particular viper in their nest.

Can you imagine the reaction if some conservative catholic lecturer from the theology department published a book like this and suggested that Trinity should segregate male an female students? His feet wouldn't touch the ground between his office and the front door!

Trinity of course being famous for its progressive stance on women's rights and strong Catholic roots

Nodin

Siipina wrote: »

Oh yeah they are so tolerant, sure. You can see it now in Irak and Syria oh and the Sharia, such a very tolerant law. ............

Course. All of them are mad for the Sharia and the beheadin.

smash

osarusan wrote: »

When you talked about calls for the elimination of Catholicism from schools but giving muslims special treatment, is this your evidence?

Do you equate removing crucifixes from uniforms with eliminating Catholicism from schools?

I'll quote this then when talking about Christmas:

He asks: “Can Muslim children be part of this fun and entertainment? Can this atmosphere be inclusive?”

Dr Selim suggests that “Muslim children can be included in the above-mentioned activities and others, provided that the songs, plays and works of art do not include any words or messages that conflict with Islamic beliefs and ethics.”

To encourage Muslims’ participation “a portion of these activities should be neutral and avoid religious references and connotations,” he suggests.

It's CHRISTMAS!

And there's this then:

When it came to Muslim children praying during the school day he says they should be facilitated by the school with “access to water facilities” as they must “perform Wudu, or ablution, prior to praying.” Then “ a clean, quiet room is needed as a prayer room.” This could be a temporary space in “any room or even the library,” he says.

So basically, fcuk your christmas activities... and give us our prayer room and time off class!

Sure I'll quote this too:

More generally,and where Muslim parents in particular are concerned, Dr Selim points out that “when it comes to shaking hands with members of the opposite sex, most Muslims are reluctant and many of them may refuse. This behaviour does not imply a lack of respect or that the other person is not clean.”

For some Muslims to do so would be “a clear breach Muslim teaching” or “is inconsistent with their culture.” Similarly, “Muslims do not believe in eye contact between members of the opposite sex.” This was “significant for teachers when dealing with Muslim parents.”

So going beyond the teachings of the school, there's an element of making the teachers feel like they're lesser human beings!

Fcuk religious beliefs and cultural beliefs. If you want to be part of a society that is not based around your culture, then adapt!

Irish Stones

endacl wrote: »

Plen

Alright, I got it, I think... it means Thank You...
Please, be patient with me, I am not mother language, not everything is immediately clear to me

FTA69

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The above post is just as bad as extreme dogmatic religious people who wish to impose there views on society. More or less bigotry.

So I'm a bigot because I don't think religion should be embedded in the state's constitution, health or education? Not a chance.

I couldn't care less what religion people decide to believe in, I just believe it should be independent of the state and that ultimately, society in general would be better off without it.

The_Valeyard

FTA69 wrote: »

So I'm a bigot because I don't think religion should be embedded in the state's constitution, health or education? Not a chance.

I couldn't care less what religion people decide to believe in, I just believe it should be independent of the state and that ultimately, society in general would be better off without it.

Thats not what you said, you said you were calling for its removal from society. Unless you wish to retract your comment and clarify what you mean.

jimgoose

As much as they occasionally annoy me he has a point, about the school uniforms and other bits-and-peices. All he's really saying can be distilled down to this bit: "To encourage Muslims’ participation “a portion of these activities should be neutral and avoid religious references and connotations,”...".

FTA69

Siipina wrote: »

FTA69 wrote: »

Oh yeah they are so tolerant, sure. You can see it now in Irak and Syria oh and the Sharia, such a very tolerant law. Thank god that they dont have a history of banning books, criminalising gays and forcing women to quit their jobs and refused them contraception. Oh sorry thats was your words to describe Catholicism.

So have you any point to make or is your response to justify all the nonsense that went on in Ireland in the name of Catholicism because "the Muslims are at it too."

Personally I wouldn't want to base an Irish Republic on what goes on out in Syria or Iraq.

As I said above, you trying to portray ordinary average Muslims as some sort of "threat" is simply a load of hyped up sh*te in my experience.