Are they demanding too much?

05-09-2014 11:55AM

smash wrote: »

Yep, fixed.

Every country in the world has a religion at it's core. There's not one who doesn't and while I don't follow or even like the catholic church it's a necessary evil which puts barriers in place to stop more extremist religions to take over or throw their weight around, which would happen.

What

smash · 05-09-2014 11:58AM

bluewolf wrote: »

What

The demands of more extreme religions are capped by the fact that we have a 'catholic' society.

Dravokivich · 05-09-2014 12:02PM

smash wrote: »

Yep, fixed.

Every country in the world has a religion at it's core. There's not one who doesn't and while I don't follow or even like the catholic church it's a necessary evil which puts barriers in place to stop more extremist religions to take over or throw their weight around, which would happen.

I dunno man, that sounds a lot like "Better the devil you know."

Also, to me it's not about opinions on the Catholic Church. It has nothing to do with who they, what they represent or the scandals that have come to light over the last 20+ years. It's that the manner in which it's being presented and endorsed as a Public/National institution. It's that I'm being told "This is it, like it or lump it, this is it. Because that's what Irish is."

smash wrote: »

Then they'd have to impose a non-religious dress code which would include that students can't wear a hijab or burka.

Nope. The freedom of Religion has nothing to do with you being prevented from expressing yourself. The issue with Catholic Schools is not to impose it on others.

MichaelR · 05-09-2014 12:06PM

If my son's classmate wears a burqa I'm giving him a balaclava. Equality, huh?
.

smash · 05-09-2014 12:09PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

I dunno man, that sounds a lot like "Better the devil you know."

Also, to me it's not about opinions on the Catholic Church. It has nothing to do with who they, what they represent or the scandals that have come to light over the last 20+ years. It's that the manner in which it's being presented and endorsed as a Public/National institution. It's that I'm being told "This is it, like it or lump it, this is it. Because that's what Irish is."

But it's not what Irish is. The catholic church is dying off fast and nobody really cares about it any more. They don't have the respect or power like they used to at all. There are non dom schools all over the place now, with more coming every year but change takes time.

Dravokivich wrote: »

Nope. The freedom of Religion has nothing to do with you being prevented from expressing yourself. The issue with Catholic Schools is not to impose it on others.

They don't impose it on others. You choose to have it taught to you because you're entering a Catholic school! If a catholic girl went to a Muslim school she'd be made wear the Muslim dress code for girls and if she wanted to put up a Christmas tree she'd be told to fcuk off. The same way Muslims going to a catholic school should follow the rules of the school!

Dravokivich · 05-09-2014 12:14PM

smash wrote: »

They don't impose it on others. You choose to have it taught to you because you're entering a Catholic school! If a catholic girl went to a Muslim school she'd be made wear the Muslim dress code for girls and if she wanted to put up a Christmas tree she'd be told to fcuk off. The same way Muslims going to a catholic school should follow the rules of the school!

You choice is impacted by the availability of what you've to choose from. It's not as extreme, but it's about as optional as Death or Snu Snu.

Irish Stones · 05-09-2014 12:21PM

seamus wrote: »

Interesting BTW that you draw a difference between "Irish" and "Muslim". Are you sure Dr. Selim isn't Irish?

In my point of view being naturalized to a new citizenship isn't the same that being born by parents who have been of that citizenship for generations.
Whoever becomes Italian over here is not Italian in my point of view, they only have "turned into" Italian.
This is my opinion, be it right or wrong.

smash · 05-09-2014 12:27PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

You choice is impacted by the availability of what you've to choose from. It's not as extreme, but it's about as optional as Death or Snu Snu.

Then home school or just suck it up and deal with it. The schools will fill the positions either way so it's the parent's choice of giving their child a good education where they have to deal with the school rules of a crucifix on a uniform and a few religion classes, or hold back their education because they need to pray 5/6 times a day and wear specific clothing!

Siipina · 05-09-2014 12:33PM

Ah now they start over here as well. In Germany they actually managed to ban Christmas markets in some cities and other kind of christian celebrations. Of cause the Germans still feel so guilty that they do everything to make them happy and you know what? They dont integrate, they just demand more.
They have "honor killings" now and they demand that they should be treated like in the sharia.
German kids are getting abused because they are not Muslim, the girls are told in school to keep their mouth shut as a woman should not speak in public. And nobody is saying a word against it because if so they will be called a racist and nazi directly. Please dont let that happen here.

whisky_galore · 05-09-2014 12:36PM

This is Ireland - get used to it. You don't like it, sod off elsewhere.

Dravokivich · 05-09-2014 12:37PM

smash wrote: »

Then home school or just suck it up and deal with it. The schools will fill the positions either way so it's the parent's choice of giving their child a good education where they have to deal with the school rules of a crucifix on a uniform and a few religion classes, or hold back their education because they need to pray 5/6 times a day and wear specific clothing!

That's exactly the issue I have with the "Like it or lump it." And it's not just a few religion classes and a bit of a pray. Catholic primary schools have regular activities preparing for the Sacraments. This is education time being preferentially set aside for the religion. You can't just deal with it, if it is all encompassing about what the school does and there's no other realistic alternatives available.

conorhal · 05-09-2014 12:43PM

pickarooney wrote: »

What he said was

which is not unreasonable. There's be no harm adding in a few songs that don't refer to Christianity (Frosty the snowman? hard enough to think of any with no santy or jesus references) so that the Muslim kids can join in; the Christian/non-Muslim children don't lose out any there, and it's important for them to be able to share activities with their friends.

A lot of what he's asking for would be of benefit to non-Muslim children who find themselves surrounded by state-sanctioned religious iconography and teaching which is of no relevance to them - a huge number of boards posters are in opposition to the current Catholic-themed classrooms which dominate the Irish education system and should see this man more as an ally than anything else in that respect.

As regards what the kids can wear, a bit of even-handedness is not much to ask for. If crosses and pioneer pins are allowed, a hajib is no harm. Otherwise ban the lot, French style.
The water bottle thing for the toilets - I can't see how that would impinge on anyone and it sounds like good hygiene.

I just can't see how the kind of practices which are highly offensive to Western culture (overt sexual discrimination) and divisive in the extreme could fit in an Irish context.

All that is what the pont is not.

Selim isn't looking for inclusivity, in fact he looking for the very opposite, exclusivity. What he is describing is exactly the regime in practice down in clonskeagh, a school the frequetly flaunts department of education guidelines, the department is just too craven to crack down on them.

smash · 05-09-2014 12:46PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's exactly the issue I have with the "Like it or lump it." And it's not just a few religion classes and a bit of a pray. Catholic primary schools have regular activities preparing for the Sacraments. This is education time being preferentially set aside for the religion. You can't just deal with it, if it is all encompassing about what the school does and there's no other realistic alternatives available.

Only if the child is going to part take in the Sacrament. I have a friend who's son was not baptised and was not going to be making his communion and he was not forced to part take in any of the activities, either were a number of other children from the class!

Siipina · 05-09-2014 12:47PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's exactly the issue I have with the "Like it or lump it." And it's not just a few religion classes and a bit of a pray. Catholic primary schools have regular activities preparing for the Sacraments. This is education time being preferentially set aside for the religion. You can't just deal with it, if it is all encompassing about what the school does and there's no other realistic alternatives available.

But why is no other religion complaining? Or the so called atheist? Funny enough they are grand with it only Muslims what everything their way. For example this sentence is written in the " book about islam" "For children encounters with giaours are to be discouraged" Giaours are non Muslims

Dravokivich · 05-09-2014 01:03PM

smash wrote: »

Only if the child is going to part take in the Sacrament. I have a friend who's son was not baptised and was not going to be making his communion and he was not forced to part take in any of the activities, either were a number of other children from the class!

They may not be taking part in the prep work, but they are sitting aside doing something else. Wasting their education time.

Siipina wrote: »

But why is no other religion complaining? Or the so called atheist? Funny enough they are grand with it only Muslims what everything their way. For example this sentence is written in the " book about islam" "For children encounters with giaours are to be discouraged" Giaours are non Muslims

Other Religions as a body are able to get funding for their schools. Such as Protestants. This is what I meant earlier by the options available being limited. It's either a few schools that aren't Religious, Catholic, or a few schools of another Religion.

The so called Atheist, is.

http://www.atheist.ie/2014/08/children-have-a-human-right-to-a-neutral-studying-environment-even-in-denominational-schools/

http://www.atheist.ie/2014/08/un-asks-ireland-about-religious-discrimination-in-irish-schools-video-and-transcript/

I can't seem to find them at the moment, but there have been other articles posted on other news websites similar to this over the last couple of months.

pickarooney · 05-09-2014 01:11PM

Irish Stones wrote: »

In my point of view being naturalized to a new citizenship isn't the same that being born by parents who have been of that citizenship for generations.
Whoever becomes Italian over here is not Italian in my point of view, they only have "turned into" Italian.
This is my opinion, be it right or wrong.

Tweet it to Balotelli, see if he agrees.

I am Italian, I feel Italian, I will forever play with the Italy national team.

The_Captain · 05-09-2014 01:11PM

Meanwhile, in Australia, Irish emigrants are wearing GAA jerseys and getting Tayto sent over instead of eating Marmite and watching cricket

smash · 05-09-2014 01:12PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

They may not be taking part in the prep work, but they are sitting aside doing something else. Wasting their education time.

No they're not, they're doing other activities like art!

Dravokivich · 05-09-2014 01:19PM

smash wrote: »

No they're not, they're doing other activities like art!

Well, far be it from me to not want a kid to do something fun.

I don't think they should be put in a position where they are the exception though. Particularly in a Public/National school.

Irish Stones · 05-09-2014 01:24PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Tweet it to Balotelli, see if he agrees.

Balotelli plays in Italy and feels Italian, but he's not Italian, whatever he says.
He was born to non Italian parents, he's been naturalized.
I was born in Italy to Italian parents, who were born to Italian parents and so on. I live in Italy and I am and feel Italian, of course.
I live in Northern Italy, but my parents emigrated from the south of Italy in the 60's, so they are "southern" and so am I, though I was born here where I lived all my life.
I don't consider myself a "northern", and I cannot claim to be, because my origins weren't from here. Nobody who has been "northern" for generations would accept me being "northern". And I agree with them.
So, doesn't matter where you are born or whether you received a new citizenship, you are what your origins are.

Grayson · 05-09-2014 01:27PM

smash wrote: »

No they're not, they're doing other activities like art!

There were three protestant kids in my school. two of them were girls in the same year. Every day during religion class they sat outside in the cloakroom.

It was a little country school. the classrooms were filled with religious stuff and events like confirmation and communion took up a lot of time.

Grayson · 05-09-2014 01:29PM

Irish Stones wrote: »

Balotelli plays in Italy and feels Italian, but he's not Italian, whatever he says.
He was born to non Italian parents, he's been naturalized.
I was born in Italy to Italian parents, who were born to Italian parents and so on. I live in Italy and I am and feel Italian, of course.
I live in Northern Italy, but my parents emigrated from the south of Italy in the 60's, so they are "southern" and so am I, though I was born here where I lived all my life.
I don't consider myself a "northern", and I cannot claim to be, because my origins weren't from here. Nobody who has been "northern" for generations would accept me being "northern". And I agree with them.
So, doesn't matter where you are born or whether you received a new citizenship, you are what your origins are.

So Dev was an american? And I'm English. Even though my parents, grand parents etc are Irish and I just happened to be born abroad because my parents just happened to be there at the time.

Nice to see such a simple world view. You've got the little boxes to put everyone into and one simple rule to apply.

osarusan · 05-09-2014 01:31PM

Irish Stones wrote: »

Balotelli plays in Italy and feels Italian, but he's not Italian, whatever he says.
He was born to non Italian parents, he's been naturalized.
I was born in Italy to Italian parents, who were born to Italian parents and so on. I live in Italy and I am and feel Italian, of course.
I live in Northern Italy, but my parents emigrated from the south of Italy in the 60's, so they are "southern" and so am I, though I was born here where I lived all my life.
I don't consider myself a "northern", and I cannot claim to be, because my origins weren't from here. Nobody who has been "northern" for generations would accept me being "northern". And I agree with them.
So, doesn't matter where you are born or whether you received a new citizenship, you are what your origins are.

Il Duce, you're alive!

I thought you were dead.

smash · 05-09-2014 01:31PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't think they should be put in a position where they are the exception though. Particularly in a Public/National school.

Then you'd agree that in a national school, catholic or otherwise, Muslims should not be allowed were a burka or hijab? Because these articles make them the exception! Only by starting to remove such things they will allow themselves to become part of a non discriminative society. But you see, they won't remove them, they'll expect others to bend their rules to accommodate. And by doing so, they'll always be the exception.

FTA69 · 05-09-2014 01:32PM

smash wrote: »

Yep, fixed.

Every country in the world has a religion at it's core. There's not one who doesn't and while I don't follow or even like the catholic church it's a necessary evil which puts barriers in place to stop more extremist religions to take over or throw their weight around, which would happen.

Then they'd have to impose a non-religious dress code which would include that students can't wear a hijab or burka.

And what about indigenous Irish Protestants? How are they supposed to feel about our alleged republic being a "Catholic" society?

Similarly we need to drop this nonsense notion that Muslims are somehow an invading horde. In the UK, the majority of Muslims were born in the UK and are British citizens. What are you going to do, have blood and faith tests to determine who truly belongs in the state?

osarusan · 05-09-2014 01:35PM

smash wrote: »

Then you'd agree that in a national school, catholic or otherwise, Muslims should not be allowed were a burka or hijab? Because these articles make them the exception! Only by starting to remove such things they will allow themselves to become part of a non discriminative society. But you see, they won't remove them, they'll expect others to bend their rules to accommodate. And by doing so, they'll always be the exception.

You can have non-denominational schools where children of any religion can wear whatever religious clothes/accessories they want.

Or you can have non-denominational schools where any religious clothes/accessories of any kind are prohibited.

What you seem to want is one where Catholics are allowed religious clothes or accessories, but other religions are not.

smash · 05-09-2014 01:38PM

FTA69 wrote: »

And what about indigenous Irish Protestants? How are they supposed to feel about our alleged republic being a "Catholic" society?

Their faith is based on mostly the same beliefs and practices so why would they kick up a fuss? There's Protestant schools and churches scattered all over Ireland. They never let a state based catholic schooling system get in the way if their daily lives or their children's education. And they never asked for special circumstances.

Can you imagine a Catholic or Protestant going to Israel and demanding change in the schooling system?

smash · 05-09-2014 01:39PM

osarusan wrote: »

What you seem to want is one where Catholics are allowed religious clothes or accessories, but other religions are not.

I never once ever said that... Tell me where I even hinted that it's what I want!

c_man · 05-09-2014 01:40PM

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

Dr Ali Salem has written a book. That book gives an alarmist view of muslims in Ireland. The book is being publicised on white Irish media....

Ughh, and we're done.

bodice ripper · 05-09-2014 01:43PM

Religion out of schools. Problem solved.

Are they demanding too much?

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