Zwarte Piet

Tail Docker

Is it not a bit off that Christmas and the western traditions that go along with that, and have done for such a long time, start coming under pressure due to "PC" constraints? Christmas is brilliant, I wish they'd feck off and concentrate on the shape of fruit and putting up signs.

wexie

MagicMarker wrote: »

No it doesn't.

oh so you can't be racist to itinerants then?
You should go tell Pavee point

Beaner1

You can't hide behind tradition to justify everything. It's a racist tradition. The character is representative of a 19th century view of a bumbling negro.

bodice ripper

Tail Docker wrote: »

Is it not a bit off that Christmas and the western traditions that go along with that, and have done for such a long time, start coming under pressure due to "PC" constraints? Christmas is brilliant, I wish they'd feck off and concentrate on the shape of fruit and putting up signs.

It's not Christmas, they have Christmas when we do. This is for Sinterklaas, on the 5th of December.

Zwarte Piet was created by one individual in a book in 1850, and according to Wikipedia

"Until 1920 there were several books giving him other names, and in contemporaneous appearances the name and looks still varied considerably."

So it's not an old tradition at all.

bodice ripper

Grayson wrote: »

i was going to ask why the face is black. If they're parodying a race it's probably not ok. If it's something like a chimney sweep, it's probably ok.

It's fairly disingenuous to say it's from a chimney, when it accompanied by an Afro wig, big red lips and big gold earrings.

Whether or not I thought the character is racist, when people here try the chimney line I feel like spitting on the ground.

_Kaiser_

Beaner1 wrote: »

You can't hide behind tradition to justify everything. It's a racist tradition. The character is representative of a 19th century view of a bumbling negro.

And Santa Claus is a fat white guy which is taking a pop at the obese, encourages child abuse, and perpetuates the idea of the White man being superior :rolleyes:

This whole politically correct "racist" nonsense has gone way too far in my opinion. It's the late 20th/21st century's version of witch burning or Christian fundamentalism and it's damaging our society and cultures as a result in everything from harmless traditions like this, to humour, to parenting, as those who buy into it do their utmost to keep their heads down and conform to the herd - ultimately resulting in a shirking of responsibilities we take on as adults

- Guy gives a description of a road traffic accident and mentions that the other driver was a black woman/non-national. Sure it probably never happened at all, he's just a big racist and sexist too!!
- Little Johnny steals.. bless him, he's from a broken home or disadvantaged area
- Johnny's parents are crippled with debt because they overextended themselves on the mortgage. Not their fault - the banks/their friends/the government "bullied" them into it

It's long past time that some people stopped looking to be offended at every opportunity, realised that the INTENT of something is what determines if it's offensive or "wrong", and frankly copped the fook on to themselves and minded their own business.

Grayson

bodice ripper wrote: »

It's fairly disingenuous to say it's from a chimney, when it accompanied by an Afro wig, big red lips and big gold earrings.

Whether or not I thought the character is racist, when people here try the chimney line I feel like spitting on the ground.

the red lips could be from sucking on firelighters and for all you know he could have a ginger fro under all that soot

wexie

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's long past time that some people stopped looking to be offended at every opportunity, realised that the INTENT of something is what determines if it's offensive or "wrong", and frankly copped the fook on to themselves and minded their own business.

It nearly seems that 'finding offence' has become a hobby for some people. Even finding offence on behalf of other groups they have no relationship with whatsoever.

I'm telling you it won't be long until Santa can't have elves anymore because it's considered offensive to little people.

Birneybau

HELLOOO DAVE.

J Mysterio

wexie wrote: »

I dunno, but certainly after the whole Korean 'we can't hire you because your people are all alcoholics) there were certainly plenty of cries of racism.

What?

J Mysterio

bodice ripper wrote: »

It's fairly disingenuous to say it's from a chimney, when it accompanied by an Afro wig, big red lips and big gold earrings.

Whether or not I thought the character is racist, when people here try the chimney line I feel like spitting on the ground.

Haha. Spitting on the ground.

newmug

bodice ripper wrote: »

It's fairly disingenuous to say it's from a chimney, when it accompanied by an Afro wig, big red lips and big gold earrings.

Whether or not I thought the character is racist, when people here try the chimney line I feel like spitting on the ground.

Woo-HOO ya big mad rebel ya!

bodice ripper

newmug wrote: »

Woo-HOO ya big mad rebel ya!

well, I have to maintain my reputation...

wexie

J Mysterio wrote: »

What?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-teacher-denied-job-in-korea-due-to-alcoholism-of-your-kind-30722989.html

J Mysterio

Ho ho ho. Holy ****.

Pinch Flat

Gas thread. I found baron samedi in live and let die wholly offensive as white person

http://youtu.be/gX3wGWHRlXQ

suicide_circus

"I find xyz offensive"

"Ok, and?"

"You should stop doing xyz"

"No"

bodice ripper

you'll note I didn't say it should stop. I have Dutch friends who are very passionate in their defense of Zwarte Piet, and I do not think less of them for it.

I also am not that fond of restricting anyone's freedoms, even if it is causing offence.

However, the way in which it is defended is frequently more distasteful than the character itself, and the particularly pig headed way in which some Dutch people refuse to even see how it could be offensive to someone other than themselves does their point no favours...

RobYourBuilder

bodice ripper wrote: »

you'll note I didn't say it should stop. I have Dutch friends who are very passionate in their defense of Zwarte Piet, and I do not think less of them for it.

I also am not that fond of restricting anyone's freedoms, even if it is causing offence.

However, the way in which it is defended is frequently more distasteful than the character itself, and the particularly pig headed way in which some Dutch people refuse to even see how it could be offensive to someone other than themselves does their point no favours...

Other countries have some self respect and appreciation for their cultural heritage. The Dutch don't give a flying windmill what foreigners think of Zwarte Piet.

"It is an old Dutch children's tradition, Saint Nicolas and Black Pete. It is not about a green or brown Pete and I cannot change that. I can only say that my friends in the Netherlands Antilles are very happy with the Saint Nicolas celebration, because they don't have to paint their faces. When I play Black Pete, I am for days trying to get the grime off my face," Rutte stated when confronted with a question by Dutch-American journalist Kevin Roberson of the US news blog Examiner.com at a press conference on Sunday, preceding the Nuclear Security Summit.

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, meanwhile, has sided with tradition. "Black Pete is black. There's not much I can do to change that," he said.

http://mashable.com/2014/07/03/black-pete/

http://www.thedailyherald.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46779:rutte-criticised-for-black-pete-remark&catid=1:islands-news&Itemid=54

No f*cks given and rightfully so.

bodice ripper

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Other countries have some self respect and appreciation dor their cultural heritage. The Dutch don't give a flying windmill what foreigners think of Zwarte Piet.





http://mashable.com/2014/07/03/black-pete/

http://www.thedailyherald.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46779:rutte-criticised-for-black-pete-remark&catid=1:islands-news&Itemid=54

No f*cks given and rightfully so.

I am entitled to an opinion, even if no one else cares.

Its exactly as old as Minstrel shows in the US, would we defend that as tradition?

RobYourBuilder

bodice ripper wrote: »

I am entitled to an opinion, even if no one else cares.

Its exactly as old as Minstrel shows in the US, would we defend that as tradition?

Of course I wouldn't. Minstrel shows were intended to demean the Afro-American population of the time. That's unacceptable.

Black Pete is a tradition that started well before there was a sizeable black population in the Netherlands. There is no malice behind it.

You're looking at this through a very American-centric prism. Just because blackface has bad connotations in America, doesn't make that true for Zwarte Piet. Would you be an American, by any chance?

bodice ripper

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Of course I wouldn't. Minstrel shows were intended to demean the Afro-American population of the time. That's unacceptable.

Black Pete is a tradition that started well before there was a sizeable black population in the Netherlands. There is no malice behind it.

You're looking at this through a very American-centric prism. Just because blackface has bad connotations in America, doesn't make that true for Zwarte Piet. Would you be an American, by any chance?

One of my parents is american, and this character was created by an individual in 1850, and the blackface/earrings/wig/lips became popular in the 1920's, so it is entirely contemporary with the minstrel image. there is a massive movement against Piet amongst the black population here, who strenuously object to Piet in schools. this is generally met with "go back to your own country", despite these people having been in the Netherlands for generations. Which is why the denfense is creepier than the character.

the Netherlands has a history of slaving, the just sold to other people.

Why not hire black people to play the character?

bodice ripper

bodice ripper wrote: »

you'll note I didn't say it should stop. I have Dutch friends who are very passionate in their defense of Zwarte Piet, and I do not think less of them for it.

I also am not that fond of restricting anyone's freedoms, even if it is causing offence.

However, the way in which it is defended is frequently more distasteful than the character itself, and the particularly pig headed way in which some Dutch people refuse to even see how it could be offensive to someone other than themselves does their point no favours...

Quouted for those with selective reading...

wexie

bodice ripper wrote: »

One of my parents is american, and this character was created by an individual in 1850, and the blackface/earrings/wig/lips became popular in the 1920's, so it is entirely contemporary with the minstrel image. there is a massive movement against Piet amongst the black population here, who strenuously object to Piet in schools. this is generally met with "go back to your own country", despite these people having been in the Netherlands for generations. Which is why the denfense is creepier than the character.

the Netherlands has a history of slaving, the just sold to other people.

Why not hire black people to play the character?

eerrr.....because that would be considered racist (hiring people based on skin colour is bad hmmmkay?)



just because it is contemporary with the minstrel image doesn't mean it's comparable, Zwarte Piet, overall, portrays a pretty positive image of friendly and happy helpers to St. Nick. (aside from the whole 'if you're bad they're going to bring you back to spain' thing).

bodice ripper

wexie wrote: »

eerrr.....because that would be considered racist (hiring people based on skin colour is bad hmmmkay?)



just because it is contemporary with the minstrel image doesn't mean it's comparable, Zwarte Piet, overall, portrays a pretty positive image of friendly and happy helpers to St. Nick. (aside from the whole 'if you're bad they're going to bring you back to spain' thing).

surely you jest

http://www.animaatjes.nl/cliparts/speciale-dagen/zwarte-piet/animaatjes-zwarte-piet-50067.jpg

wexie

bodice ripper wrote: »

surely you jest

http://www.animaatjes.nl/cliparts/speciale-dagen/zwarte-piet/animaatjes-zwarte-piet-50067.jpg

okay yes, in appearance, however the intent and meaning behind it aren't even remotely comparable.

I find this whole notion that 'blackface' by definition is racist absolutely laughable. This discussion seems to come up every year and apparently if I wanted to dress up as Mr. T for Halloween that would have been racist.

To me the mere fact that people attach quite so much meaning to skin colour is worrying on it's own. It's just a physical attribute, no more than freckles, red hair or floppy ears. There shouldn't be a value attached to it.

Nodin

wexie wrote: »

just because it is contemporary with the minstrel image doesn't mean it's comparable, Zwarte Piet, overall, portrays a pretty positive image of friendly and happy helpers to St. Nick. (aside from the whole 'if you're bad they're going to bring you back to spain' thing).

Alas no.

"The transformation, however, is not complete with the outfit and greasepaint. The character must speak poor Dutch with a stupid accent, and must act childlike and mischievous when performing. And from mid-November, when Sintaklass and his servants arrive, you can see Zwarte Pieten all over, on television programmes and commercials and on the streets, acting the fool.
At schools across the country, children sing songs referring to the skin tone and character of the black servant "...even if I'm black as coal I mean well…", "Saint Nicolas, enter with your black servant", etc, and there are other old songs about Zwarte Piet in which he's made out to be a little bit stupid, a little bit clumsy, more akin to a child than an adult, the same generalisations previously applied to black people, but which can no longer be made explicitly."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/05/black-pete-race-netherlands

wexie

Nodin wrote: »

Alas no.

"The transformation, however, is not complete with the outfit and greasepaint. The character must speak poor Dutch with a stupid accent, and must act childlike and mischievous when performing. And from mid-November, when Sintaklass and his servants arrive, you can see Zwarte Pieten all over, on television programmes and commercials and on the streets, acting the fool.
At schools across the country, children sing songs referring to the skin tone and character of the black servant "...even if I'm black as coal I mean well…", "Saint Nicolas, enter with your black servant", etc, and there are other old songs about Zwarte Piet in which he's made out to be a little bit stupid, a little bit clumsy, more akin to a child than an adult, the same generalisations previously applied to black people, but which can no longer be made explicitly."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/05/black-pete-race-netherlands

and you get this information from an English newspaper.....right...I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

rozeboosje

I think the whole hoopla around "Zwarte Piet" is utterly bizarre.

Why anybody would think that that character is "racist" is beyond me; in fact I think that those who make the loudest noise about how "racist" Zwarte Piet is should take a long hard look at themselves. What makes them connect this clearly fictitious character who has a skin colour that can't be observed in any actual human being, who wears makeup that nobody in their right mind would ever wear, and who wears the kind of attire that you'd only ever see on stage with any living human being?

It reminds me of Doug Loates, who wrote a letter to Coca Cola. Coca Cola had printed combinations of English and French words on the inside of bottle caps for people to discover as they opened their bottles. On one occasion, the English word in question was "YOU" and the French word was "RETARD", but of course that is also well known as an English word. But this is where the story gets bizarre, as Doug happened to have a daughter called Fiona with Cerebral Palsy....

Doug had a hissy fit over this. What if Fiona had opened that bottle? How would YOU feel if you had a daughter like that and you opened that bottle? What if SHE had opened that bottle!?

But here's the rub... The combination of those two particular words in that order was a random occurrence caused by an impersonal piece of software. Nobody in Coca Cola deliberately set out to insult anyone. The fact that that particular bottle ended up coming to the attention of Doug was, also, the result of a totally random sequence of events. Nobody set out to insult Doug or anybody in his family deliberately.

But most importantly, when Doug DID become aware of the bottle cap and what it said, HE immediately thought of his daughter Fiona.

Let that sink in for a moment.

I think the whole furore about Zwarte Piet is not all that different. If one sees a Zwarte Piet character and one immediately connects that character to "black people", maybe one should examine one's own prejudices rather than play the Political Correctness game.

RobYourBuilder

bodice ripper wrote: »

One of my parents is american, and this character was created by an individual in 1850, and the blackface/earrings/wig/lips became popular in the 1920's, so it is entirely contemporary with the minstrel image. there is a massive movement against Piet amongst the black population here, who strenuously object to Piet in schools. this is generally met with "go back to your own country", despite these people having been in the Netherlands for generations. Which is why the denfense is creepier than the character.

the Netherlands has a history of slaving, the just sold to other people.

Why not hire black people to play the character?

Bringing slavery into it now. How very American. With the Zwarte Piet character there wasn't any intent of creating an offensive racial stereotype, let alone create a representation of slavery. After all, in Holland, it would make more sense for the character to be of Indonesian descent if that were the case. Perhaps his character originated as a Moor in order to scare children into thinking he would take you away if you misbehaved, but there's no confirmed reason as to why exactly Zwarte Piet is black, which is probably because there isn't one.

There is a history of these type of characters all across Europe: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_Man

As far as most people are concerned, Zwarte Piet is Sinterklaas' servant that according to an old children's book, simply happens to be a Moor because he lived in Spain and it would make for a pretty distinguishable character.

Wearing blackface in America, however, while bearing similarity to the Zwarte Piet character in facial make-up, has completely different origins. Instead of originating from a children's book as a character that simply happens to be black, it originated as a theatric, exaggerated racial stereotype of an African slave worker. That's a big difference.