Zwarte Piet

bodice ripper · 07-11-2014 06:29PM #1

So, today I bought this kit for blacking yourself or your children up for Sinterklaas. We're coming into the season.

Zwarte Piet (pronounced [ˈzʋɑrtə ˈpit]; English: Black Peter) is the companion of Saint Nicholas (Dutch: Sinterklaas) in the folklore of the Low Countries. The character first appeared in its current form in an 1850 book by Jan Schenkman and is commonly depicted as a blackamoor. Actors portraying Zwarte Piet typically put on blackface make-up and colourful Renaissance attire, in addition to curly wigs, red lipstick and earrings. In recent years, the character has become the subject of controversy, especially in the Netherlands.[1][2]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

I have to say it is quite jarring to watch as a foreigner, especially as some people take exception to foreigners having an opinion on it. My Facebook feed is alive with angry debate this time of year. You should see the faces of American tourists as they encounter grown men in the full regalia.

I'd have to admit that I bought the kit in part because I can't imagine this could continue in perpetuity and it seemed like a cultural souvenir worth having.

So, any thoughts? I hate to see the Dutch outshine the Irish in online bickering, even on a homegrown topic like this...

RobYourBuilder · 07-11-2014 06:33PM

I have to say it is quite jarring to watch as a foreigner, especially as some people take exception to foreigners having an opinion on it

Well, you are a guest in The Netherlands and it is a cultural tradition of theirs, so what do you expect?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-11-2014 06:37PM

bodice ripper wrote: »

So, today I bought this kit for blacking yourself or your children up for Sinterklaas. We're coming into the season.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

I have to say it is quite jarring to watch as a foreigner, especially as some people take exception to foreigners having an opinion on it. My Facebook feed is alive with angry debate this time of year. You should see the faces of American tourists as they encounter grown men in the full regalia.

I'd have to admit that I bought the kit in part because I can't imagine this could continue in perpetuity and it seemed like a cultural souvenir worth having.

So, any thoughts? I hate to see the Dutch outshine the Irish in online bickering, even on a homegrown topic like this...

You're not this mythical pc-brigade I keep hearing about , are you?

J Mysterio · 07-11-2014 06:38PM

Whats interesting is that in Germany at this time of year they have Schwarze Peter (black peter). Schwarze peter is a chimney sweep though, not a negroid.

Zwarte Piet is definitely outdated and is probably racist.

bodice ripper · 07-11-2014 06:38PM

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Well, you are a guest in The Netherlands and it is a cultural tradition of theirs, so what do you expect?

Oh, nothing less of course. Everyone is like that, everywhere.

And I am not a guest, no more than Poles in Ireland are guests.

bodice ripper · 07-11-2014 06:41PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You're not this mythical pc-brigade I keep hearing about , are you?

Nope, card carrying offensive joke merchant.

crockholm · 07-11-2014 07:31PM

I'd walk a million miles for one of those smiles........

stimpson · 08-11-2014 09:25AM

There's only two things I hate - intolerance of other people's cultures, and the Dutch.

evolving_doors · 08-11-2014 09:54AM

Is it racist to make your face darker?

Well soldiers use camouflage and they are not being racist!

Is this darker colour specifically to represent a person of darker skin (from Africa for example!).

I think so?

What if this is an effort to imitate a black saint.. (which I think from the german take on it is it would be).

If I were to venerate say nelson mandela by taking on his likeness would I be racist?
I don't think so!

Although if I were to paint my face to imitate a race as foolish (like minstrels) then I think I would be a racist as Im perpetuating a stereotype.... although Eddie Murphy does that to the nth degree and it passes as harmless fun.

was it bad that Noddy had a black friend but folk got nervous and he became a bit of 'the doll that dare not speak its name'.

Wow this is just to complicated OP... what exactly was your question?

Some people buy Nazi memerobelia.. but I think the motivation behind it is the question.

Chunners · 08-11-2014 10:00AM

**** me that image is hilarious

kneemos · 08-11-2014 10:04AM

Armelodie wrote: »

Is it racist to make your face darker?

If I were to venerate say nelson mandela by taking on his likeness would I be racist?
I don't think so!

Yes and yes.

Uncle Ruckus · 08-11-2014 10:05AM

Armelodie wrote: »

was it bad that Noddy had a black friend but folk got nervous and he became a bit of 'the doll that dare not speak its name'.
.

You mean this guy in the bottom left? I can't remember him but I only watched the t.v series.

Robbo · 08-11-2014 10:07AM

bodice ripper wrote: »

So, today I bought this kit for blacking yourself or your children up for Sinterklaas. We're coming into the season.

You disappoint me by not ending it with "...gets earlier every year, doesn't it?"

old_aussie · 08-11-2014 10:11AM

By any chance is your name Al Jolson

dissed doc · 08-11-2014 10:17AM

Robbo wrote: »

You disappoint me by not ending it with "...gets earlier every year, doesn't it?"

Not in Holland, as everything has a precise schedule for it starts and stops!

Grayson · 08-11-2014 10:17AM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Whats interesting is that in Germany at this time of year they have Schwarze Peter (black peter). Schwarze peter is a chimney sweep though, not a negroid.

Zwarte Piet is definitely outdated and is probably racist.

i was going to ask why the face is black. If they're parodying a race it's probably not ok. If it's something like a chimney sweep, it's probably ok.

Idleater · 08-11-2014 10:24AM

Grayson wrote: »

i was going to ask why the face is black.... If it's something like a chimney sweep, it's probably ok.

Something in between, santa claus arrives by boat from Spain with his helpers and gives spiced sweets from the colonies to the children of the house.

Hermy · 08-11-2014 10:26AM

Grayson wrote: »

If they're parodying a race it's probably not ok.

Right so. No more Irish jokes, no more leprechaun suits and no more Darby O'Gill and the Little People.

wexie · 08-11-2014 10:31AM

Grayson wrote: »

i was going to ask why the face is black. If they're parodying a race it's probably not ok. If it's something like a chimney sweep, it's probably ok.

Idleater wrote: »

Something in between, santa claus arrives by boat from Spain with his helpers and gives spiced sweets from the colonies to the children of the house.

Depends on who you ask really, Zwarte Piet would traditionally be a Moor however they also deliver presents down the chimney

MagicMarker · 08-11-2014 10:32AM

Hermy wrote: »

Right so. No more Irish jokes, no more leprechaun suits and no more Darby O'Gill and the Little People.

Are Irish people a race now?

Hermy · 08-11-2014 10:34AM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Are Irish people a race now?

I have no idea.
It's a bit early for technicalities.

Grayson · 08-11-2014 10:35AM

Hermy wrote: »

Right so. No more Irish jokes, no more leprechaun suits and no more Darby O'Gill and the Little People.

I can live with that. Even Connery pretends he was never in it.

wexie · 08-11-2014 10:35AM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Are Irish people a race now?

I dunno, but certainly after the whole Korean 'we can't hire you because your people are all alcoholics) there were certainly plenty of cries of racism.

Beaner1 · 08-11-2014 10:37AM

There is no talking to the dutch on this. Reasonable, liberal types and that all goes out the window when people suggest it's a bit racist.

They will tell you he's black because of chimney soot. Then please explain the red lip paint and golliwog hair.

Idleater · 08-11-2014 10:47AM

wexie wrote: »

however they also deliver presents down the chimney

Agreed, when I was growing up, I asked how children in houses with no fireplaces got visited, so that story in our house was boat and Spain.

I followed the unesco cultural envoy threatening not to list the Netherlands in some new ranked listing of culturally aware countries because of this last year. The response was as only the Dutch would : we didn't ask to be listed, nor do we care, it's our tradition for longer than you have existed.

MagicMarker · 08-11-2014 10:54AM

Hermy wrote: »

I have no idea.
It's a bit early for technicalities.

We'll you're not technically wrong, you're just wrong.

FTA69 · 08-11-2014 10:56AM

MagicMarker wrote: »

We'll you're not technically wrong, you're just wrong.

Racism includes discrimination based on nationality and ethnicity as well.

MagicMarker · 08-11-2014 11:01AM

FTA69 wrote: »

Racism includes discrimination based on nationality and ethnicity as well.

No it doesn't.

_Kaiser_ · 08-11-2014 11:06AM

Having lived over there for a few years when I was a kid, I remember this alright.

It's just harmless traditional fun for the kids, like Santa Claus here. FFS guys will be dressing up as a fat white guy who gives out toys to young impressionable kids while they sit on his knee - does that mean that they're slagging off fat people, or promoting pedeophilia?

Bloody PC nonsense as usual.. Looking to be offended when there's no reason to be. Some people really need to get over themselves.

FTA69 · 08-11-2014 11:08AM

MagicMarker wrote: »

No it doesn't.

I'm afraid it does.

"the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.[25]"

The UN definition as above:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Legal

wexie · 08-11-2014 11:10AM

Idleater wrote: »

I followed the unesco cultural envoy threatening not to list the Netherlands in some new ranked listing of culturally aware countries because of this last year. The response was as only the Dutch would : we didn't ask to be listed, nor do we care, it's our tradition for longer than you have existed.

It's entirely true, personally I don't quite see how it can be considered racist if it's been a tradition for so long and, importantly, there is absolutely no negative intent whatsoever.

Having said that it's probably a somewhat pointless discussion as it seems opinions are pretty well divided and never the twain shall meet

Zwarte Piet

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