Top London employers discriminate agains't working class people

mikemac1

If you want to hire a hard worker for your business than hire a farmers son or daughter

steddyeddy

Menas wrote: »

I would imagine it is a lot more expensive to get a law degree than a science degree too. Further making it more difficult for working class kids.

On the converse I would say science is a far more difficult subject making it more difficult for kids who are in it for the wrong reasons.

steddyeddy

PARlance wrote: »

For someone that is working/helping out kids in this area, I amazed by your amazement. It doesn't take much to realise that:

If an employer is hiring someone who is going to be stuck in a room splitting atoms all day... then they are obviously going to be less inclined to care what that persons skin colour, sex, accent, upbringing is and they will be more focused on raw talent/skill etc.
For an accountant, solicitor etc. they will be required to be the public face of the company within a few years once they have been worked like a dog and have gotten their qualification. So whilst they are an accountant, solicitor by trade, they are also a sales person for their employer, they represent their employer during meetings, projects etc with clients.

I'm not saying it's right, but it doesn't require a rocket scientist (from either Blackrock or Tallaght) to figure out why there is differences in selection preferences between them. Society and the business community need to change before the big law, accountancy firms will follow.

I'll write a long post when I'm finished work but the majority of science grads hired by companies like Pfizer are not hired for actual research.

steddyeddy

PARlance wrote: »

For someone that is working/helping out kids in this area, I amazed by your amazement. It doesn't take much to realise that:

If an employer is hiring someone who is going to be stuck in a room splitting atoms all day... then they are obviously going to be less inclined to care what that persons skin colour, sex, accent, upbringing is and they will be more focused on raw talent/skill etc.
For an accountant, solicitor etc. they will be required to be the public face of the company within a few years once they have been worked like a dog and have gotten their qualification. So whilst they are an accountant, solicitor by trade, they are also a sales person for their employer, they represent their employer during meetings, projects etc with clients.

I'm not saying it's right, but it doesn't require a rocket scientist (from either Blackrock or Tallaght) to figure out why there is differences in selection preferences between them. Society and the business community need to change before the big law, accountancy firms will follow.

Right back to this Parlanace. Biotech and Pharm companies hire plenty of scientists. Contrary to the "according to my calculations" view of scientists they aren't just hired to be research scientists.

Most of the scientists are not hired in such positions rather they become sales reps, global product reps or enter management. I.e they deal with the public. The top 25 most profitable drugs alone made over 140 billion alone last year globally. So it's fair to there's a lot of money riding on who you hire.

It might seem unusual that they hire science graduates as reps and managers but who better to explain products than a scientist. We had an interesting paradigm shift in the pharmaceutical sector a while back. What used to happen is that commerce grads used to run pharm companies. What happened is they laid out a company directive it got directed towards the scientists who said no that won't work like that and they designed the appropriate directive which became the new one. Eventually the commerce middle man was replaced and scientists began to become CEOs of companies. Other times scientists who were let go throughout this period started their own pharm companies which were eventually bought back by the same company that let them go.

That's an interesting off topic history of pharmaceutical companies but it illustrates my point. Science job requires you not only to understand science but to be able to communicate that effectively.

Maybe science is less about the abstract, charm and sleight of hand than finance but I don't think so. If you can explain the science to me and convince me it's accurate than that's enough. I see no reason why a large proportion of the finance students need to come from Eton or wherever.

steddyeddy

In other words some of you have rationalised* the discriminatory behaviour of finance, law and accounting by saying these companies have a public face to keep. They may rationalise their discrimination against certain backgrounds based on the fact they need to uphold their public image but the fact is it's bigotry to think that hiring people of working class background will damage your public image. I don't know what some people were taught by their parents but people born to parents with not much money can carry themselves are well as the rest of them.





*To be clear I said and meant rationalise not defend.

I work in large accountancy firm and this doesn't ring true at all

steddyeddy

I asked this on the Legal forum before and they said NO way did that happen here. They got angry at the suggestion.

steddyeddy

mikemac1 wrote: »

If you want to hire a hard worker for your business than hire a farmers son or daughter

That's true alright . Although I was warned to stay away from plenty of farmer's daughters

Permabear

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awec

MattD1349 wrote: »

Anyone who says class & snobbery doesn't exist in this country is either deluded or middle class themselves. There's assholes everywhere.

True.

Inverse snobbery is just as annoying as snobbery though.

Dyr

Permabear wrote: »

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In all fairness, with the exception of a very small number of jobs that's absolute bollocks

anncoates

Permabear wrote: »

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Top hats too. Don't forget the top hats.

Rough Sleeper

Permabear wrote: »

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Sounds like a genuine meritocracy.

Dyr

Permabear wrote: »

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Actually, this post needs to be read in Swiss Tonys voice.

Mesrine65

BattleCorp wrote: »

My missus applied for loads of jobs that she was well qualified for. She kept putting down our home address and she kept getting nowhere.

I told her to put down her Aunt's address in Dalkey. First job that she applied to using that address, she got the job.

I'm not saying that the address got her the job but.......................

I remember as a teenager growing up in Darndale, applying for jobs that I never heard back from.

Employed the same tactic & used my uncle's address in Rathgar...voila, gainfully employed & this was the early 80's, nothings changed

anncoates

To be fair, it's a bit ridiculous to imply that a 'working class' person that has attained an education and a high professional position cannot as adults master the kind of tastes, etiquette and social skills normally associated with a person of the same education and professional position from a middle class upbringing.

I think what's being implied is that their background in itself isn't acceptable which may be the case but at least admit that instead of portraying it almost as a regrettable law of nature.

A similar point was made earlier in the thread as if a person is indelibly destined to emerge from years of university, career and middle class life as some kind of cartoon Howaya figure purely by dint of where they spent their childhoods.

Permabear

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Mesrine65

anncoates

Permabear wrote: »

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I presumed we were talking about progressing in professions in Ireland rather than trying to gain admittance to a monarchy.

Permabear

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steddyeddy

Guys my original point remains everyone in Ireland is either two or generations away from either working or farming class bar a small percentage of the population. Do we import toffs into our country?

anncoates

Permabear wrote: »

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Do they have to negotiate a menu, give a DNA sample, order wine and organize a golf outing during the interview?

They just ask about work experience and skill set here. I'm in the wrong sector.

steddyeddy

anncoates wrote: »

To be fair, it's a bit ridiculous to imply that a 'working class' person that has attained an education and a high professional position cannot as adults master the kind of tastes, etiquette and social skills normally associated with a person of the same education and professional position from a middle class upbringing.

I think what's being implied is that their background in itself isn't acceptable which may be the case but at least admit that instead of portraying it almost as a regrettable law of nature.

A similar point was made earlier in the thread as if a person is indelibly destined to emerge from years of university, career and middle class life as some kind of cartoon Howaya figure purely by dint of where they spent their childhoods.

This. If you think every middle class person acts with class then you need to hang around UCD more.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Roquentin

in fairness i agree with permabear. the mechanics of how one is chosen for a job and how a woman chooses a man lets say at a date are strikingly similar. you have the big things like personality or career but you also have small things that can influence the final decision.

with regards the cv, an employer looks through it and makes a decision: he either accepts it or he rejects it. its the same as if someone were going out to buy a new brand of coffee. you look at the choices and you unconsciously accept or reject particular brands based on how they look, cost, size etc. it all comes together. decision theory is powerful

i new a guy who went for an interview wherein part of the interview was a night out in the local pub (friday night). basically they were trying to ascertain what this guy was really like. trying to find out more about his character etc.

anncoates

Permabear wrote: »

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Has anybody ever slipped under the radar?

For example, a candidate shows the requisite social polish (albeit cleverly acquired and not innate) but is eventually unmasked as being from a council estate.

Or would prescience thankfully always detect this in the interview?

steddyeddy

I'd agree you only hire people with etiquette and manners. The discrimination comes in when people think you cannot acquire these skills because you are working class.

It's like Tim Hunt's comments about women crying in the lab. He maintains women wouldn't traditional have been found in the lab environment so wouldn't have the breeding for it. The same is true of finance and law. Not traditional working class environments but nothing says your background or sex excludes you from picking up the necessary skills.

steddyeddy

Roquentin wrote: »

in fairness i agree with permabear. the mechanics of how one is chosen for a job and how a woman chooses a man lets say at a date are strikingly similar. you have the big things like personality or career but you also have small things that can influence the final decision.

with regards the cv, an employer looks through it and makes a decision: he either accepts it or he rejects it. its the same as if someone were going out to buy a new brand of coffee. you look at the choices and you unconsciously accept or reject particular brands based on how they look, cost, size etc. it all comes together. decision theory is powerful

i new a guy who went for an interview wherein part of the interview was a night out in the local pub (friday night). basically they were trying to ascertain what this guy was really like. trying to find out more about his character etc.

No one is arguing character isn't important. Where the discrimination comes in when you dismiss people from a certain class when you think they won't have it.

Permabear

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Roquentin

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'd agree you only hire people with etiquette and manners. The discrimination comes in when people think you cannot acquire these skills because you are working class.

It's like Tim Hunt's comments about women crying in the lab. He maintains women wouldn't traditional have been found in the lab environment so wouldn't have the breeding for it. The same is true of finance and law. Not traditional working class environments but nothing says your background or sex excludes you from picking up the necessary skills.

people are inherently prejudice though. a lot of their decisions are instinctive and unconscious in nature. so lets say someone has an address from a disadvantaged part of a city. they the employer simply sees the address and say no in an instinct. theres no thinking about it.

another example is attractiveness. a man or a woman looks at another man or woman and instinctively decides whether they are attractive. they are either attractive or not. the decision process is instinctive and unconscious that then feeds into a conscious decision.

steddyeddy

Roquentin wrote: »

people are inherently prejudice though. a lot of their decisions are instinctive and unconscious in nature. so lets say someone has an address from a disadvantaged part of a city. they the employer simply sees the address and say no in an instinct. theres no thinking about it.

another example is attractiveness. a man or a woman looks at another man or woman and instinctively decides whether they are attractive. they are either attractive or not. the decision process is instinctive and unconscious that then feeds into a conscious decision.

Again this isn't a defense. Tim Hunt the Nobel laureate grew up in a time where women weren't traditionally in a lab. Based on their lack of experience in the lab he made a judgement based on that. We have to move past discrimination though.

Permabear

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steddyeddy

anncoates wrote: »

Has anybody ever slipped under the radar?

For example, a candidate shows the requisite social polish (albeit cleverly acquired and not innate) but is eventually unmasked as being from a council estate.

Or would prescience thankfully always detect this in the interview?

I mean this is crackers to me. In science people (mostly) don't slip under the radar because we hire on merit.

Rough Sleeper

Permabear wrote: »

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This sounds incredibly vulgar to be honest. It seems that a culture has developed where importance is attached to insignificant things to bestow a sense of exclusivity on its members. Other sectors seem to get along just fine without this ostentatious nonsense. Some very successful and well-funded labs in Ireland have their investment secured by researchers who look like they're fed out of soup kitchens.

P_1

Interesting, I suppose soft skills like knowing what wine to pick and the like are somewhat important for a job that involves taking in money. Not quite sure what one's upbringing has to do with it mind

Roquentin

steddyeddy wrote: »

Again this isn't a defense. Tim Hunt the Nobel laureate grew up in a time where women weren't traditionally in a lab. Based on their lack of experience in the lab he made a judgement based on that. We have to move past discrimination though.

im not trying to defend it. im trying to explain it through decision theory.

IMO as long as you have the merit and the skill set to work where ever, your social class shouldnt come into it. but this is not what happens. employers are human and they make decisions, often irrational

anncoates

Permabear wrote: »

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So he attained his position on the basis of his ability, education and skills, including the distinct (if not exactly hard professional) social skills for the position, despite his social class which we can all agree is how it should be.

steddyeddy

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

This sounds incredibly vulgar to be honest. It seems that a culture has developed where importance is attached to insignificant things to bestow a sense of exclusivity on its members. Other sectors seem to get along just fine without this ostentatious nonsense. Some very successful and well-funded labs in Ireland have their investment secured by researchers who look like they're fed out of soup kitchens.

I agree. Labs around Europe attract millions in funding even when the researcher looks like he eats out of bins.

steddyeddy

Roquentin wrote: »

im not trying to defend it. im trying to explain it through decision theory.

I'm not saying you are but I don't think we can rationalise sexism, discrimination ect. Just label it in the hope it will die out.

Dyr

Permabear wrote: »

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The funny thing is that I've worked for one of the biggest finance bodies in the country for over decade and most of the senior figures would be from the old boy network but have no clue about ordering wine or correct golf attire or how to address a duchess or such nonsense.

It actually sounds just like swiss tonys guide to women. Somebody fantasizing about things they have no real experience of.

steddyeddy

P_1 wrote: »

Interesting, I suppose soft skills like knowing what wine to pick and the like are somewhat important for a job that involves taking in money. Not quite sure what one's upbringing has to do with it mind

Indeed. No one is denying these skills ate important. When working class people can learn hard skills such as engineering and rocket science I don't think it would be hard to learn these.

Permabear

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road_high

Ireland is a very class based society. I think anyone that thinks otherwise is deluded.

steddyeddy

road_high wrote: »

Ireland is a very class based society. I think anyone that thinks otherwise is deluded.

Looking at the genetics of the Irish it's clear we all come from the same stock unlike the English. We may have a class system but anyone who thinks they're descended from different classes is deluded for the last part.

K4t

Permabear wrote: »

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Thank you, I will! Quite sad more than anything else.

Permabear wrote: »

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Or maybe he had already learnt it from his postal worker father? I suppose you think private school secondary students in Ireland are more well mannered and refined than their vocational and public school counterparts? Or that one must attend Trinity to learn some social polish?

I hate wine

Roquentin

K4t wrote: »

Thank you, I will! Quite sad more than anything else.

Or maybe he had already learnt it from his postal worker father? I suppose you think private school secondary students in Ireland are more well mannered and refined than their vocational and public school counterparts? Or that one must attend Trinity to learn some social polish?

i think his social polish is being taken out of context. i think hes talking about these little things that one must learn that make the difference. it all adds up to give ones projection to society.

for instance i remember when working in a hotel i was told to keep my head up and my hands out of my pockets. for that kind of job you need certain mannerisms.

Rough Sleeper

bluewolf wrote: »

I hate wine

Hope you're ready to hit the glass ceiling when you don't know what vintage one should order along with pan-fried hake.

I'm doomed
Can I order a cocktail instead