The English and their weird fascist nationalism again.

osarusan

Deleted User wrote: »

and then realised his family might suffer in Derry if he showed too much deference to the UK anthem.

How do you think this might happen?

katydid

Cold War Kid wrote: »

I'm referring to those who reacted fanatically though.

What is a fanatical reaction in this case?

katydid

katydid wrote: »

The British soldiers in NI who committed atrocities are not "the British Army", any more than the IRA are not the Irish people.

If the guy has a problem with that, he shouldn't be living and working in England.

Sigh, difficult to know where to begin. So the British soldiers who killed non-violent civil rights activists on Bloody Sunday are not the British army?

Difficult to argue with someone who comes up with something like that. Pretty exhausting.

Berserker

NorthStars wrote: »

Did he?

Yep, I was at the game and saw him. He was there along with the rest of the panel. MON, RK etc were all there with him.

Cold War Kid

katydid wrote: »

What is a fanatical reaction in this case?

The abuse the opening poster referred to. Criticism doesnt need to be abuse.

NorthStars

Berserker wrote: »

Yep, I was at the game and saw him. He was there along with the rest of the panel. MON, RK etc were all there with him.

Interesting, he didn't come on until half time in that one.
I must dig up some footage of the anthems.

Streetwalker

Deleted User wrote: »

... honestly, if it were an Englishman on the Irish team and they didn't do the same to the Irish anthem, there'd be a similar outcry. Let's face it - it'd be true.

Yeah look at all those atrocities Ireland have carried out on the English, oh wait a second....

barneystinson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Doesn't he have a right to make a gesture of solidarity with the people he's from as a mark of respect for the innocent victims of British military violence and intimidation.

Not at a soccer match that's got nothing to do with any of those things, no. I don't see the solidarity in it, unless he was after watching Escape to Victory and got confused about what was going on...

wp_rathead

Football silly season really is the worst season

Berserker

NorthStars wrote: »

Interesting, he didn't come on until half time in that one.
I must dig up some footage of the anthems.

I know that but he was standing at the dugout for the anthems with the rest of the squad. No shenanigans that day. And I have seen him play at under age level for NI too and he stood for the anthems too when it was played. They are not played as often at under age level.

Kiwi in IE

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

This thread reminds me of pictures of protesters objecting to the Queen's visit whilst wearing English football jerseys. Similar mentality there!

How is it similar? I don't expect environmentalists not to have a car, as if by owning a car completely invalidates their political opinions. Similarly I don't excoriate right wingers for giving to charity if they have a disdain for lower classes. The world is not black and white.

katydid

katydid wrote: »

If he's that worried about his family in Derry, he should go back there and get a job in the local McDonalds, and look after them.

Muhammed Ali he's not.

Again, I'm not comparing to Muhammad Ali in terms of relative sporting prowess. I'm comparing them in terms of suffering public flak for refusing to take part in something that contradicts their belief systems.

And we both know his wages from the Premier league would help look after his family far better than even a lifetime working in McDonald's.

barneystinson

osarusan wrote: »

How do you think this might happen?

West Brom has a huge fan base amongst hard line republicans in Derry, did you not know?! So it would be the talk of the town if McClean had simply stood facing the same direction as everyone else while a band played some music, obviously... :rolleyes:

katydid

Deleted User wrote: »

Sigh, difficult to know where to begin. So the British soldiers who killed non-violent civil rights activists on Bloody Sunday are not the British army?

Difficult to argue with someone who comes up with something like that. Pretty exhausting.

They were members of the British army. Not THE British Army. Not the same thing. Their actions were not sanctioned by THE British Army.

Titzon Toast

katydid wrote: »

Not everything one is expected to do in a job is listed in a contract.

Then how can you expect it to be enforced?

barneystinson

barneystinson wrote: »

Not at a soccer match that's got nothing to do with any of those things, no. I don't see the solidarity in it, unless he was after watching Escape to Victory and got confused about what was going on...

OK, so using your logic, the soccer match has nothing to do with either his community or the anthem, so you shouldn't have any problem with him not facing the flag for it right?

NorthStars

Deleted User wrote: »

OK, so using your logic, the soccer match has nothing to do with either his community or the anthem, so you shouldn't have any problem with him not facing the flag for it right?

Fair point to be honest.

Titzon Toast

katydid wrote: »

They were members of the British army. Not THE British Army. Not the same thing. Their actions were not sanctioned by THE British Army.

That has to be one of dumbest statements I've ever read on the Internet.
Well done.

katydid

Titzon Toast wrote: »

Then how can you expect it to be enforced?

I don't. I expect him to do it because it's the right thing to do; to show respect to his colleagues, the hosts, himself AND the country he earns his living in.

Kiwi in IE

Deleted User wrote: »

How is it similar? I don't expect environmentalists not to have a car, as if by owning a car completely invalidates their political opinions. Similarly I don't excoriate right wingers for giving to charity if they have a disdain for lower classes. The world is not black and white.

You are right! It's clearly a very grey area when getting paid big bucks to play for an English football team happens to clash with your anti English sentiment!

katydid

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, I'm not comparing to Muhammad Ali in terms of relative sporting prowess. I'm comparing them in terms of suffering public flak for refusing to take part in something that contradicts their belief systems.

And we both know his wages from the Premier league would help look after his family far better than even a lifetime working in McDonald's.

I never thought for a moment you were comparing him to Muhammed Ali as an athlete. You were making the ridiculous comparison as some kind of principled stand taker. Muhammed Ali had a genuine point, and saw it through. This twerp works in England, pays his taxes in England, so he doesn't know the meaning of taking a principled stance. He's just looking for notice.

NorthStars

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

You are right! It's clearly a very grey area when getting paid big bucks to play for an English football team happens to clash with your anti English sentiment!

Would any of the All Blacks, if they were playing club rugby in Australia, stand and sing the Aussie anthem?

katydid

Titzon Toast wrote: »

That has to be one dumbest statements I've ever read on the Internet.
Well done.

So explain how members of an army, who commit atrocities not sanctioned by the army are representative of an entire army of tens of thousands of people...

osarusan

NorthStars wrote: »

Would any of the All Blacks, if they were playing club rugby in Australia, stand and sing the Aussie anthem?

Would any of them turn away and hang their head?

This strawman that his only other option was to gaze at the flag and sing the anthem is just pointless.

Titzon Toast

katydid wrote: »

So explain how members of an army, who commit atrocities not sanctioned by the army are representative of an entire army of tens of thousands of people...

I try not to argue with stupid people, they're much better at it than me.
Good luck.

katydid

Titzon Toast wrote: »

I try not to argue with stupid people, they're much better at it than me.
Good luck.

In other words, you don't have an answer.

barneystinson

NorthStars wrote: »

Would any of the All Blacks, if they were playing club rugby in Australia, stand and sing the Aussie anthem?

Who said anything about singing?

This boils down to showing respect, or in his case disrespect. If he can't respect the flag and anthem then he shouldn't be there, it's that simple. A pre-season match for West Brom has got **** all to do with the Brit army in NI, until he makes it so and invites all this trouble on himself.

Kiwi in IE

NorthStars wrote: »

Would any of the All Blacks, if they were playing club rugby in Australia, stand and sing the Aussie anthem?

All Blacks cannot play for overseas clubs whilst they are in the team. And I have never heard of an ex All Black playing elsewhere making a public show of not acknowledging a flag or anthem of the country where they were playing. Perhaps it has happened, I am not an authority on the subject, and if it has then that person is as much a dick as this guy!

Kiwi in IE

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

You are right! It's clearly a very grey area when getting paid big bucks to play for an English football team happens to clash with your anti English sentiment!

He hasn't actually DONE anything or said anything that can be conflated with anti English sentiment. He has merely refused to endorse the anthem because to him it also represents the systematic repression of his community during the Troubles.

katydid

Deleted User wrote: »

He hasn't actually DONE anything or said anything that can be conflated with anti English sentiment. He has merely refused to endorse the anthem because to him it also represents the systematic repression of his community during the Troubles.

No one asked him to endorse anything.

Eugene Norman

katydid wrote: »

No one asked him to endorse anything.

He's doesn't like a flag because of its connection with the oppression of his people, including relatives. Not different to blacks not liking the confederate flag.

The nationalism here seems to be the flag lovers.

katydid

katydid wrote: »

So explain how members of an army, who commit atrocities not sanctioned by the army are representative of an entire army of tens of thousands of people...

This is pathetic. They were on duty and an order was given to use live rounds on the civilian population. This is pretty standard stuff.

Using your deeply flawed logic you can't say anything about Isis because the beheadings they are committing are by members of Isis but not by Isis themselves.

Can't believe I wasted my time replying to your comment :rolleyes:

NorthStars

Deleted User wrote: »

He hasn't actually DONE anything or said anything that can be conflated with anti English sentiment. He has merely refused to endorse the anthem because to him it also represents the systematic repression of his community during the Troubles.

He refused to endorse the 'British', not English anthem.
The British state committed many murderous acts in his home town.
McClean is Irish and has genuine reasons not to stand to attention for that anthem.
Can't stand it myself, normally I'd mute the tv when it's played.

barneystinson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

OK, so using your logic, the soccer match has nothing to do with either his community or the anthem, so you shouldn't have any problem with him not facing the flag for it right?

The soccer match is to do with whatever it's to do with. If it involves a pre-match ritual of facing flags and playing anthems then it's disrespectful not to just go along with it.

As I've already said, I fully accept his stance on the poppy, but this is completely different - it shows a complete lack of basic respect for the whole country, which is a bit rich when it's a portion of their public whose support pays your wages.

Smiles35

Deleted User wrote: »

In fairness I don't think this was a planned thing by McClean. I think he probably went to face the flag and then realised his family might suffer in Derry if he showed too much deference to the UK anthem.

Oh, they had the flag on the big screen as well? Ah, well.

Eugene Norman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is pathetic. They were on duty and an order was given to use live rounds on the civilian population. This is pretty standard stuff.

Using your deeply flawed logic you can't say anything about Isis because the beheadings they are committing are by members of Isis but not by Isis themselves.

Can't believe I wasted my time replying to your comment :rolleyes:

Furthermore the army and state did cover it up for generations.

barneystinson

NorthStars wrote: »

He refused to endorse the 'British', not English anthem.
The British state committed many murderous acts in his home town.
McClean is Irish and has genuine reasons not to stand to attention for that anthem.
Can't stand it myself, normally I'd mute the tv when it's played.

What is the English national anthem?

Omackeral

NorthStars wrote: »

Would any of the All Blacks, if they were playing club rugby in Australia, stand and sing the Aussie anthem?

Nobody, not even those who are against McClean's actions, are saying he should have sung the anthem. Nobody.

katydid

katydid wrote: »

I never thought for a moment you were comparing him to Muhammed Ali as an athlete. You were making the ridiculous comparison as some kind of principled stand taker. Muhammed Ali had a genuine point, and saw it through. This twerp works in England, pays his taxes in England, so he doesn't know the meaning of taking a principled stance. He's just looking for notice.

Why in your opinion was Muhammad Ali's point fair whereas McClean is "just looking for notice"?

Muhammad Ali turned against the very country he was born, raised and made his career from. Surely you would have thought of him as a hypocrite first and foremost no?

Harry Palmr

mjsc1970 wrote: »

There's 2 minutes of my life ill never get back after reading this thread

You only had 21 posts to read before you brain started screaming.

I'm catatonic!

Eugene Norman

barneystinson wrote: »

What is the English national anthem?

There isn't one.

NorthStars

barneystinson wrote: »

What is the English national anthem?

'Jerusalem' has been used a lot as the English anthem.
Depends on the situation.

barneystinson

Eugene Norman wrote: »

There isn't one.

So they usually use......??? .... for sporting events etc...?

Eugene Norman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why in your opinion was Muhammad Ali's point fair whereas McClean is "just looking for notice"?

Muhammad Ali turned against the very country he was born, raised and made his career from. Surely you would have thought of him as a hypocrite first and foremost no?

I suppose she can't do her UKIP style "he should go back to where he came from" with Ali.

Of course McClean is where he came from. The UK. He just doesn't respect the flag or anthem of where he came from, like Ali for a while.

Kiwi in IE

Deleted User wrote: »

He hasn't actually DONE anything or said anything that can be conflated with anti English sentiment. He has merely refused to endorse the anthem because to him it also represents the systematic repression of his community during the Troubles.

He was not required to sing the anthem or endorse anything. He made an intentional show of standing the opposite direction to the rest of his team with intent to show disrespect.

Nodin

katydid wrote: »

They were members of the British army. Not THE British Army. Not the same thing. Their actions were not sanctioned by THE British Army.

It was standard practice all over the world by the BA - shoot down any leaders and men of arms bearing age. They were caught here because they did it on their own doorstep in view of modern world media. Arabs, Asians and Africans had to put up with that kind of thing for centuries. The people in command in the North in the early period had previously held command in Cyprus, various parts of Africa and Asia where that kind of thing was the bread and butter of colonial rule. Do you think they rant the empire on hugs and being friends on facebook?

katydid

Deleted User wrote: »

Why in your opinion was Muhammad Ali's point fair whereas McClean is "just looking for notice"?

Muhammad Ali turned against the very country he was born, raised and made his career from. Surely you would have thought of him as a hypocrite first and foremost no?

Because Ali had a point,and stood by it. Ali was born in a country where he was a second class citizen, and he owed them nothing. This eejit works in England, pays his tax to her Majesty's government, and then "takes a stand" by disrespecting his team mates, his club, and the country that give him a good living.

Eugene Norman

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

He was not required to sing the anthem or endorse anything. He made an intentional show of standing the opposite direction to the rest of his team with intent to show disrespect.

Yes it was deliberate disrespect for a flag he considers oppressive. Get over it.

barneystinson

NorthStars wrote: »

'Jerusalem' has been used a lot as the English anthem.
Depends on the situation.

How do you know that, don't you usually mute the TV...

katydid

Nodin wrote: »

It was standard practice all over the world by the BA - shoot down any leaders and men of arms bearing age. They were caught here because they did it on their own doorstep in view of modern world media. Arabs, Asians and Africans had to put up with that kind of thing for centuries. The people in command in the North in the early period had previously held command in Cyprus, various parts of Africa and Asia where that kind of thing was the bread and butter of colonial rule. Do you think they rant the empire on hugs and being friends on facebook?

Can you cite the regulations which detail this standard practice?