The English and their weird fascist nationalism again.

weldoninhio · 19-07-2015 07:51PM

mrsoundie wrote: »

If my memory serves me right, I do remember a certain Mr Martin Johnson standing on the wrong side of a bit of carpet, which caused some righteous indignation.

Quite a difference between bowing your head and not facing a flag, and making the effort to be awkward and force the dignitaries of the country you are playing against to walk through the mud to be introduced to you.

Quite a few ignorant, stupid and ridiculous posts in this thread so I'll try and go through a few of them.
1) England don't have a national anthem.
2) the British army murdered, in cold blood, innocent civilians in the Creggan. The estate McClean comes from.
3) the war dead etc who James "dishonours" by not wearing a poppy were fighting against forced beliefs, fascism and their sacrifice gave us the option of freedom of expression. Jumping on someone who expresses an opinion different to your own is the dishonourable act here.

Ave Sodalis · 19-07-2015 07:56PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yawn, predicable attempt at wit and humour. This is correct, however the poppy celebrates war of 100 years ago, so why would he wear it for something that was not in his name?

weldoninhio wrote: »

3) the war dead etc who James "dishonours" by not wearing a poppy were fighting against forced beliefs, fascism and their sacrifice gave us the option of freedom of expression. Jumping on someone who expresses an opinion different to your own is the dishonourable act here.

But we're not discussing the poppy...

Eugene Norman · 19-07-2015 07:58PM

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Bloody Sunday was 17 years before he was even born...

Well within the memory of people on the estate he lived on, then.

darkpagandeath · 19-07-2015 08:00PM

Anyway I'm out Predictable outcome is predictable. This is why I generally give these type of threads a miss.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 19-07-2015 08:02PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

It wasn't the British flag, it was the St George's cross.

There's people that stand by their principles no matter how right or wrong they are (and that's fair enough), and there's attention seeking clowns.

People also forget that not many years ago the national anthem was played at the end of every night in clubs, dancehalls and nightclubs up and down this country and woe betide anybody that did what McClean did here. It's a cringeworthy and jingoistic tradition at American sports events alright, but he'd have been better off not travelling with the club than doing what he did imo.

Bollix Backwards Man, if someone didn't stand and face where the national anthem was coming from in a club/pub it wouldn't be national (UK) news and you know it.

Guy:Incognito · 19-07-2015 08:04PM

Hammer89 wrote: »

I don't have a view, but please watch the first minute of that match. The commentator describes Tony Pulis as "one of the best in Europe" and repeatedly refers to them as "the West Bromwich Albion".

At least they wont have to play the Queensh Park Raisins this season anyway, so thats something.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 19-07-2015 08:05PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Anyway I'm out Predictable outcome is predictable. This is why I generally give these type of threads a miss.

Give them a miss all you want but you've posted in it 9 times already ffs. :pac:

Eugene Norman · 19-07-2015 08:06PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Anyway I'm out Predictable outcome is predictable. This is why I generally give these type of threads a miss.

The thread is running fine and it's gotten better as McClean's personal relationship with the Union Jack has been explained. He isn't a radical republican, he's from an estate where people were killed for marching for civil rights

Although your contribution to it -- as with all your arguments -- is a mixture of daily express sentiment, whataboutary and bad logic.

Eugene Norman · 19-07-2015 08:08PM

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Bollix Backwards Man, if someone didn't stand and face where the national anthem was coming from in a club/pub it wouldn't be national (UK) news and you know it.

I started clubbing on tail end of the anthem being played and I often ignored it.

Memnoch · 19-07-2015 08:10PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

3) the war dead etc who James "dishonours" by not wearing a poppy were fighting against forced beliefs, fascism and their sacrifice gave us the option of freedom of expression. Jumping on someone who expresses an opinion different to your own is the dishonourable act here.

I think the greatest dishonour to those who fought for freedom of expression is to bully and castigate someone for simply not wanting to wear a symbol that may represent things that they don't personally want to support.

We're not talking about hate speech, or someone going out of their way to cause insult. But refusing to wear a poppy? And the response of a free society is to browbeat someone into partaking in a show of support that they clearly don't agree with or believe in deep down?

Those crying hypocrisy should perhaps consider the irony inherent in their own position first.

Ave Sodalis · 19-07-2015 08:12PM

Memnoch wrote: »

I think the greatest dishonour to those who fought for freedom of expression is to bully and castigate someone for simply not wanting to wear a symbol that may represent things that they don't personally want to support.

We're not talking about hate speech, or someone going out of their way to cause insult. But refusing to wear a poppy? And the response of a free society is to browbeat someone into partaking in a show of support that they clearly don't agree with or believe in deep down?

Those crying hypocrisy should perhaps consider the irony inherent in their own position first.

We're not talking about the poppy...

HellboundIRL · 19-07-2015 08:12PM

Nothing wrong with what he did. He respectfully bowed his head and didn't turn towards the flag as its not his.

If an English player did the same here then I wouldn't see a problem with it either. If he turned his back on it completely then I'd see it as disrespectful.

19-07-2015 08:15PM

sup_dude wrote: »

But we're not discussing the poppy...

Correct but this is very closely related to this incident in tone and symbolism.

Ave Sodalis · 19-07-2015 08:17PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Correct but this is very closely related to this incident in tone and symbolism.

And I think this is where the biggest division in this thread is coming from. I think they're two seperate incidents.

equivariant · 19-07-2015 08:18PM

john.han wrote: »

But they'd have no reason to do the same... the Irish nation never did what the British army did in Derry, you've kinda missed the point.

I see. I must have imagined those thousands of civilians murdered by the IRA during the 70s and 80s. My bad. I guess it's ok since it wasn't the "Irish nation" - whatever the f**k that is.

Lemming · 19-07-2015 08:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Correct but this is very closely related to this incident in tone and symbolism.

Not really. The "poppy mafia" will hound anyone who is a public personality for not wearing a poppy whether the person in question draws attention to their not wearing one or not. What McClean has done is of his own making on this one. He could have turned with everyone else out of civility and a polite token respect and either just stood there or bowed his head, but instead choose not to. What he did was very deliberate and very obvious to all there that he did not respect the flag and was showing his disrepect for his club, its fans, and his team-mates.

I live in the UK. I've never once felt the need (nor pressure) to sing along to God save the Queen or whatever, or to wear a poppy, but out of courtesy and respect for my friends and colleagues I would at least stand and be polite for something that they themselves believe in.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 19-07-2015 08:21PM

mjsc1970 wrote: »

There's 2 minutes of my life ill never get back after reading this thread

I thanked your post.

But it took you 2 minutes to read my op.

19-07-2015 08:22PM

equivariant wrote: »

I see. I must have imagined those thousands of civilians murdered by the IRA during the 70s and 80s. My bad. I guess it's ok since it wasn't the "Irish nation" - whatever the f**k that is.

The Irish military didn't commit any murders of innocent British civilans during the Troubles.

You don't know what the Irish nation is? In that case you don't really have much validity making any arguments in this thread.

dundalkfc10 · 19-07-2015 08:24PM

Lemming wrote: »

Not really. The "poppy" mafia will hound anyone who is a public personality for not wearing a poppy whether the person in question draws attention to their not wearing one or not. What McClean has done is of his own making on this one. He could have turned with everyone else out of civility and a polite token respect and either just stood there or bowed his head, but instead choose not to. What he did was very deliberate and very obvious to all there that he did not respect the flag and was showing his disrepect for his club, its fans, and his team-mates.

I live in the UK. I've never once felt the need (nor pressure) to sing along to God save the Queen or whatever, or to wear a poppy, but out of courtesy and respect for my friends and colleagues I would at least stand and be polite for something that they themselves believe in.

That's were you and James differ

Junkyard Tom · 19-07-2015 08:24PM

tonycascarino wrote: »

I'd guarantee you he doesn't have a problem getting his wages with Liz's face on it.

The money he gets comes from the public. It's not as if Liz prints it in the basement of Buckingham Palace.

circadian · 19-07-2015 08:26PM

Sammy Morow done the same when he played for Derry I don't think there was much outrage here about it.

The Backwards Man · 19-07-2015 08:27PM

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Bollix Backwards Man, if someone didn't stand and face where the national anthem was coming from in a club/pub it wouldn't be national (UK) news and you know it.

It might if someone newsworthy did it for the sole purpose of provoking a reaction, as is the case here. Sticking by what you believe in is one thing, stirring the pot is another thing entirely.

Eugene Norman · 19-07-2015 08:30PM

equivariant wrote: »

I see. I must have imagined those thousands of civilians murdered by the IRA during the 70s and 80s. My bad. I guess it's ok since it wasn't the "Irish nation" - whatever the f**k that is.

He should probably have said Irish State. And yes, that matters. Your argument is a mixture of whataboutary and well poisoning. McClean is probably anti terrorist. He's just hostile to British nationalism.

tomwaterford · 19-07-2015 08:36PM

equivariant wrote: »

I see. I must have imagined those thousands of civilians murdered by the IRA during the 70s and 80s. My bad. I guess it's ok since it wasn't the "Irish nation" - whatever the f**k that is.

You must have as they killed nowhere near thousands of civilians

equivariant · 19-07-2015 08:36PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Irish military didn't commit any murders of innocent British civilans during the Troubles.

Ah yes. That old bait and switch. So the IRA weren't an official army. Right. So then they were just a bunch of murderous psychopaths. No no they were fighting for the Irish people. But ....

You'll have to do a lot better I'm afraid

You don't know what the Irish nation is? In that case you don't really have much validity making any arguments in this thread.

I'll spell it out for you. Nationalism in any form is a pile of s**t. That includes Irish nationalism. It is just as fascist as the English variety. Of course the official narrative that is drummed into Irish people is that Irish nationalism is somehow the 'good' kind and the 'Irish nation' is something to be celebrated. Of course when you actually think about it you realise that is hogwash

19-07-2015 08:38PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

It might if someone newsworthy did it for the sole purpose of provoking a reaction, as is the case here. Sticking by what you believe in is one thing, stirring the pot is another thing entirely.

What do you mean by "as is the case here". McClean is sticking by what he believes in not stirring the pot for the sake of it.

weldoninhio · 19-07-2015 08:39PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

It might if someone newsworthy did it for the sole purpose of provoking a reaction, as is the case here. Sticking by what you believe in is one thing, stirring the pot is another thing entirely.

It was a nothing preseason friendly against a 2nd or 3rd division US team in America. If certain factions hadn't blown this out of proportion there would have been no reaction.

The Backwards Man · 19-07-2015 08:39PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What do you mean by "as is the case here". McClean is sticking by what he believes in not stirring the pot for the sake of it.

Aye.

Eugene Norman · 19-07-2015 08:41PM

equivariant wrote: »

Ah yes. That old bait and switch. So the IRA weren't an official army. Right. So then they were just a bunch of murderous psychopaths. No no there were fighting for the Irish people. But ....

They weren't the Irish state. They didn't represent the Irish state. Most were in fact not from the Republic. Unless you have any proof that McClean is an IRA supporter that has no relevance to this thread.

I'll spell it out for you. Nationalism in any form is a pile of s**t. That includes Irish nationalism. It is just as fascist as the English variety. Of course the official narrative that is drummed into Irish people is that Irish nationalism is somehow the 'good' kind and the 'Irish nation' is something to be celebrated. Of course when you actually think about it you realise that is hogwash

What's been drummed into people on the last two decades is that "nationalism all bad, mkay" but that doesn't make Ghandi the equivalent of Hitler.

And as you are such a strong anti- nationalist surely you would celebrate somebody ignoring a flag representing a nation and urge others to also ignore the flag. That doesn't seem to be your position.

19-07-2015 08:44PM

equivariant wrote: »

Ah yes. That old bait and switch. So the IRA weren't an official army. Right. So then they were just a bunch of murderous psychopaths. No no they were fighting for the Irish people. But ....

You'll have to do a lot better I'm afraid

I'll spell it out for you. Nationalism in any form is a pile of s**t. That includes Irish nationalism. It is just as fascist as the English variety. Of course the official narrative that is drummed into Irish people is that Irish nationalism is somehow the 'good' kind and the 'Irish nation' is something to be celebrated. Of course when you actually think about it you realise that is hogwash

Your ramblings are nonsensical. 'Bait and switch'? You were the one that brought up the IRA and equated them to the Irish military

If you feel nationalism is a pile of sh*t then surely you would be condemning the people attacking McClean in the name of English nationalism no?

The English and their weird fascist nationalism again.

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