Why should a man offer a seat to a woman on train/bus?

Alf Veedersane

Foxtrol wrote: »

If he’s offering his seat to women and not men on public transport he is clearly being more mannerly to women.

It’s a cop out because if you’re taught as a child it’s ok to hit your partner, be sexist towards women, or racist I would hope he would reconsider it. If he’s never reflected on it then this is his opportunity. Does he do it because he feels women aren’t able to stand as long as men? Does it make him feel good to give a woman his seat, when it wouldn’t feel as good if he offered it to a man?

I said previously I’d see myself as polite/mannerly but there’s a logic behind them. I hold a door open because it saves someone going through the effort of opening it again a second later or risk it hitting them as it closes, I give my seat to injured/pregnant/frail people as they wont be able to stand as long as me.

Outside of personal gratification or thinking women are weaker than the men on the bus are, I just don’t see the logic in giving a youthful, fit woman a seat.

You've now decided to lump his behaviour in with violence? His crime, alongside being mannerly to everyone, is to offer up a seat to someone elderly or a lady.

If that's what you have picked out of his post where he says he was brought up to be mannerly to everyone, and you have an issue with the part where he says that he was taught to offer up a seat to an elderly person or a lady, you're making a huge mountain out of a molehill. There's nothing questionable about his behaviour and to suggest it's sexist is a stretch.

El_Duderino 09

Foxtrol wrote:

I get universal good manners but I don’t understand how people justify being more mannerly towards a specific gender. Harking back to how you were raised is a bit of a cop out, as if you were raised in a family where you were taught it was ok to hit your partner I would presume you would reconsider it.

If everyone simply adopted their parents morals and never adapted them to the changing times, then where would we be? You'd give up your seat for a woman but you'd also expect her to keep quiet when the men were talking politics or business and you'd expect her to keep her trivial ideas to herself.

Times change. Women are equal now and they should be seen and treated the same as anyone.

People who need a seat should be offered a seat. End of story.

B.A._Baracus

As others have said,
I too would gladly get up off the seat for a pregnant woman/woman with newborn or any frail and eldery person. Disabled people are an automatic obvious too. But no one else. As we're all able-bodied people.

But the bus itself can be a great example of what society really is too. Sounds silly but think about.... we've all been at a busy bus stop and along comes a bus. Doesn't matter if it's packed or empty. Everyone swarms the doors trying to get in front of the next person. To the point of even blocking people from getting off the bus.

Then with the introduction of leap cards you can really see the "i want to get a seat first before you" mentality. As leapcard payers often block the isle so people who paid with change moments before cant get by. :rolleyes:

DeanAustin

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If everyone simply adopted their parents morals and never adapted them to the changing times, then where would we be? You'd give up your seat for a woman but you'd also expect her to keep quiet when the men were talking politics or business and you'd expect her to keep her trivial ideas to herself.

Times change. Women are equal now and they should be seen and treated the same as anyone.

People who need a seat should be offered a seat. End of story.

That's not what's happening though. Of course people shouldn't just blindly accept their parent's morals and beliefs.

Offering a seat to a woman doesn't hurt anyone. It's a victimless gesture. Excluding someone from a conversation based on gender does hurt that person. I'd imagine that's the differentiation the poster would make.

blade1

Offer my seat to a woman?
That's verwy sexist, verwy verwy sexist!

thegreatgonzo

colossus-x wrote: »

Is standing up on a bus more difficult physically for a woman than a man all other things being equal? No - obviously. And I'm sure any woman would feel insulted if one suggested otherwise.

Well actually, for me personally I can find it really uncomfortable to remain standing when I have my period so I'd be pretty glad of the seat if it was offered. I don't take public transport though so it's not likely to happen to me.

Canterelle

Talk about first world problems. Gawd the amount of "pschoanalizing" and deeply inferred meanings here are ridiculous. A guy offers a girl his seat.....and wait, he's the biggest mysoginist ahole on the planet??? Ffs, get a life. If you can get offended by that, then I just worry. Such stupid reactions are what has given feminism a bad name. Tbh, it doesn't usually happen anymore, but if does it's just nice. Nothing more. Not him saying she's a weak helpless female. Not him asserting any superiority. Just, you know, nice.

whatismyname

Canterelle wrote: »

Talk about first world problems. Gawd the amount of "pschoanalizing" and deeply inferred meanings here are ridiculous. A guy offers a girl his seat.....and wait, he's the biggest masochistic ahole on the planet??? Ffs, get a life.

Maybe I've missed a few points, but glad to say I've not seen anyone say that :rolleyes:

Canterelle

whatismyname wrote: »

Maybe I've missed a few points, but glad to say I've not seen anyone say that :rolleyes:

Meant mysoginostic!

whatismyname

Canterelle wrote: »

Meant mysoginostic!

Same stands!

Seems the first time the word's even been used in the thread.

La Fenetre

I used to always hold doors open for other people when I was passing through, I didn't care if they are male or female, especially any heavy swing doors, but I've had a few bigoted women huff about it over the years, so now I've wised up and just hold open said doors for other men, who seem to be far politer about it all. Sad state of affairs really.

Canterelle

whatismyname wrote: »

Same stands!

Seems the first time the word's even been used in the thread.

Perhaps but the same sentiment has been expressed

Foxtrol

DeanAustin wrote: »

Ah stop. Whatever weight your point carries is undermined by you equating giving up your seat with hitting a woman.

Agree or disagree, one is done with the intention of being mannerly, the other is a power game based on deliberately hurting someone.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

You've now decided to lump his behaviour in with violence? His crime, alongside being mannerly to everyone, is to offer up a seat to someone elderly or a lady.

If that's what you have picked out of his post where he says he was brought up to be mannerly to everyone, and you have an issue with the part where he says that he was taught to offer up a seat to an elderly person or a lady, you're making a huge mountain out of a molehill. There's nothing questionable about his behaviour and to suggest it's sexist is a stretch.

Both doing a great job of trying to deflect the discussion because you’re unable to actually give a logical response to my question. I was listing out examples to show how stupid it is to explain something by ‘that’s how I was brought up’.

I’m not making a mountain out of a molehill, I’m just looking for a logical answer to the question of why someone would give their seat to a fit, young woman, especially when they wouldn’t do the same for a man. Either of you please at least try to respond to it.

whatismyname

Canterelle wrote: »

Perhaps but the same sentiment has been expressed

Not quite, but if what you somehow take out of it is that if a guy offers a girl his seat he's the biggest mysoginostic ahole on the planet, that's cool.

Canterelle

Men and women are not the same, and never will be hopefully. This has nothing to do with equality. I just hate this nitpicking over something so silly, and would hate the homogenised world where a man can't be nice to a woman because it's seen as sexist or illogical or whatever label you want to ascribe to it.

DeanAustin

Foxtrol wrote: »

Both doing a great job of trying to deflect the discussion because you’re unable to actually give a logical response to my question. I was listing out examples to show how stupid it is to explain something by ‘that’s how I was brought up’.

I’m not making a mountain out of a molehill, I’m just looking for a logical answer to the question of why someone would give their seat to a fit, young woman, especially when they wouldn’t do the same for a man. Either of you please at least try to respond to it.

If you read further on, I think I've answered you.

Giving up your seat for a woman doesn't hurt anyone.

Beating a woman does hurt someone.

People are a product of how they were brought up. You don't just blindly take everything that your parents believed and did as being right but, likewise, some of it inevitably will be. It's up to people to make the judgement on what they want to take from their parents.

Buona Fortuna

La Fenetre wrote: »

I used to always hold doors open for other people when I was passing through, I didn't care if they are male or female, especially any heavy swing doors, but I've had a few bigoted women huff about it over the years, so now I've wised up and just hold open said doors for other men, who seem to be far politer about it all. Sad state of affairs really.

Really?

I hold doors open all the time. I don't then hang about for a "How was it for you?"

I don't hold the door open at attention and salute as they pass by.

Canterelle

whatismyname wrote: »

Not quite, but if what you somehow take out of it is that if a guy offers a girl his seat he's the biggest mysoginostic ahole on the planet, that's cool.

That's not what I took out of it at all!!

whatismyname

Canterelle wrote: »

That's not what I took out of it at all!!

Apologies, wasn't meaning to do anything other than directly quote what you said!

Canterelle

whatismyname wrote: »

Apologies, wasn't meaning to do anything other than directly quote what you said!

Ah well then you just need English lessons, look at the punctuation question marks etc

La Fenetre

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

Really?

I hold doors open all the time. I don't then hang about for a "How was it for you?"

I don't hold the door open at attention and salute as they pass by.

Neither do I, but you do seem to be a bit of a woman about it.

Foxtrol

DeanAustin wrote: »

If you read further on, I think I've answered you.

Giving up your seat for a woman doesn't hurt anyone.

Beating a woman does hurt someone.

People are a product of how they were brought up. You don't just blindly take everything that your parents believed and did as being right but, likewise, some of it inevitably will be. It's up to people to make the judgement on what they want to take from their parents.

I was using it, along with several others, as an example of things you could be taught growing up that you would be stupid to go along with. I could list dozens more so I don’t know why you’re focusing on this one, especially as you seem to agree that you shouldn’t blindly take on what your parents tell you.

For him to continue doing it he must deem it as a positive thing for him and I’m asking for an explanation of the judgment to continue. The only two I can think of is that he likes thinking he’s a good guy for doing it (if so I’d like to know why he wouldn’t feel the same for giving it up to a man) or that he thinks a woman cant handle standing as well as he can. I’m open to other idea but ‘it’s what my parent taught me’ is a load of crap.

Buona Fortuna

La Fenetre wrote: »

Neither do I, but you do seem to be a bit of a woman about it.

Fail to see how you got that from my post.

I hold the door open man, woman or child.

You do some sort of mental calculation and then only hold the door open for men.

DeanAustin

Foxtrol wrote: »

I was using it, along with several others, as an example of things you could be taught growing up that you would be stupid to go along with. I could list dozens more so I don’t know why you’re focusing on this one, especially as you seem to agree that you shouldn’t blindly take on what your parents tell you.

For him to continue doing it he must deem it as a positive thing for him and I’m asking for an explanation of the judgment to continue. The only two I can think of is that he likes thinking he’s a good guy for doing it (if so I’d like to know why he wouldn’t feel the same for giving it up to a man) or that he thinks a woman cant handle standing as well as he can. I’m open to other idea but ‘it’s what my parent taught me’ is a load of crap.

Maybe because it's gotten a positive response before and he thinks it's just a nice thing to do. Why does it bother you?

Any first date I've been on, I've paid the bill. Is that something you also object to?

Alf Veedersane

Foxtrol wrote: »

Both doing a great job of trying to deflect the discussion because you’re unable to actually give a logical response to my question. I was listing out examples to show how stupid it is to explain something by ‘that’s how I was brought up’.

I’m not making a mountain out of a molehill, I’m just looking for a logical answer to the question of why someone would give their seat to a fit, young woman, especially when they wouldn’t do the same for a man. Either of you please at least try to respond to it.

Can you give me a logical answer as to why you find it so objectional if someone does.

ThinkProgress

If men and women were created exactly equal, then inequalities wouldn't exist in the first place. Many feminists think they don't need any assistance from us men to make this world a more gender equal environment.

But this is just deluded thinking. If men didn't concede some ground (by their own volition), then equality would not be possible.

Ok, perhaps some men go too far sometimes. But they still don't deserve to be heavily criticized for it.

Gender equality does not mean that men and women are identical creatures. Or that we should even be striving for that end goal.

It seems to me that some people are living in denial. And if you do or say anything that suggests men and women might have some subtle differences... well you get the angry bitter reactions.

I can treat women fairly in this world, without treating them like they're identical to men. Getting hugely offended because some well-intentioned person does something that slightly recognizes the subtle differences between men and women... that's just crazy and deluded behavior.

Foxtrol

DeanAustin wrote: »

Maybe because it's gotten a positive response before and he thinks it's just a nice thing to do. Why does it bother you?

The act itself doesn’t bother me but the cop out of ‘that’s the way I was brought up’ does. If you're going to do it then be honest as to your reasoning behind it, especially when you selecting one gender.

If it’s just a nice thing to do then why is it nice to give a seat to a woman and not to a man?

Any first date I've been on, I've paid the bill. Is that something you also object to?

If it’s a decision not driven by expectation from either side then I don’t have a problem. Can you explain why you would feel the need to do that every first date?

Ave Sodalis

ThinkProgress wrote:

I can treat women fairly in this world, without treating them like they're identical to men. Getting hugely offended because some well-intentioned person does something that slightly recognizes the subtle differences between men and women... that's just crazy and deluded behavior.

But getting of your seat isn't recognising differences. Recognising differences would be lifting something heavy because men are typically physically stronger than women.

ThinkProgress

sup_dude wrote: »

But getting of your seat isn't recognising differences. Recognising differences would be lifting something heavy because men are typically physically stronger than women.

I'm not saying giving up your seat is necessarily always the right thing to do. (it depends on the individual situation) But I think being highly critical of it, is just stupid... especially if it's well intentioned.

And btw, there are many feminist types that would react in a similar way if you tried to help them with something heavy.

Some women just get angry if you do/say ANYTHING that suggests they might be slightly different to you.

I don't think some people's reaction is even necessarily about the bus/train seat... it's more complex than that.

Ave Sodalis

ThinkProgress wrote:

And btw, there are many feminist types that would react in a similar way if you tried to help them with something heavy.

I know I said lifting something heavy is recognising differences but I think this extends more to lifting something that they can't lift. I'm not a feminist (although I'm not even sure what a feminist is these days, especially on this site) but I have got annoyed when men lift something for me, but that's because it's usually accompanied by a patronising speech before I even attempt to lift it. At work, we sell big bags of dog food and when I've said to some people that I would go get it for them, I've gotten "oh no, don't do that, I'm sure there's a stronger man about to do it" or something to that effect. That sort of stuff annoys me. It doesn't mean I'm a feminist. It means I then have to go find a male member of staff who may or may not be present. I've had people refuse to buy the dog food or compost or whatever because there just happened to be no male staff. This is despite the fact that most of the female staff are well able to lift them.

Sometimes out of the blue, a man will offer me a seat. I'm not pregnant or infirm so I don't need this, but it's not that simple. When a man offers me his seat, he's trying to extend a small courtesy to me in the form of an act of consideration. That's a very nice, random act of kindness. Sometimes I'll refuse as politely as I can, especially if the man is older, and thank them for the offer. Sometimes I'll take them up on it, if I think they've been shy or embarrassed about speaking to me. I'll always try be nice about it.

I never, ever, ever, ever, expect anyone to give me a seat. I'm young, I'm healthy, and I offer seats to the elderly, pregnant, parents with babies or anyone obviously needing a seat more than I do. I hold the door open for everyone, I don't run some kind of thanks assessment first.

Other people can behave as rudely as they want, it doesn't mean I have to join them. When anyone is nice to me, from offering me a seat to letting me into traffic, I try pay it forwards.

katydid

amdublin wrote: »

Everytime I see a seat that is vacated on a bus/train and a man taking it and leaving a woman standing it irks me. Or not offering it to the woman and just sitting it irks me.

This morning that happened amd something clicked with me. Why am I irked? I want equality in every other male/female scenario so why not this???
.

There is no reason for an able bodied man to offer an able bodiedwoman a seat. Why would they?

A man or woman should offer a seat to a man or woman who needs it because of age or disability.

I wonder why it irks you?

katydid

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it's a courtesy?

I'm sure it evolved from an era when chivalry was more relevant and ostentatious, and the reason is probably buried in here somewhere...

http://www.amazon.com/Manwatching-Field-Guide-Human-Behavior/dp/0810921847

Why is it a courtesy? What has a random woman done to deserve that a random man would give up his seat to her? Is she so feeble that she can't stand?

katydid

Isaiah wrote: »

I feel that it's more becoming of a man to be strong, capable and assertive when needed but also humble and willing to make sacrifices, however small, to benefit those around them, especially those who are physically smaller or weaker than themselves..

And women are incapable of being strong, capable and assertive? How hard do you think it is to stand on a bus? You really think women are so weak and feeble?

How patronising and insulting.

Sometimes an act of consideration is just one of those nice random acts of kindness that make the world a nice place. You can politely refuse to accept it, but there's no need to get bent out of shape about it.

katydid

Weatherproof79 wrote: »

If you want to feel patronised go ahead. I'm sure you feel a lot of inadequacies. My mother taught me to hold doors open for people and to offer my seat if a lady is standing. I don't see them as weaker in any shape or form and no one has ever reacted badly. I wouldn't offer my seat to you tho, you could quite easily remove than chip from your shoulder and sit on that.

If you don't see them as weaker, why would they need to sit down on a bus. Carry on being patronising; clearly you don't really care about the people you interact with and offer these favours to. You just want to look good in the eyes of other people.

Azalea

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

Wow

I THINK they mean in self defence (the hitting part).

I think...

katydid

Shermanator wrote: »

I was raised to believe a man gave up his seat for a woman just because he was a man. This is not about "seating etiquette". this is about what type of man you are.

You don't have to carry on doing something just because you were raised to do it. The type of man who, in this day and age, offers a perfectly healthy woman a seat is being patronising. So maybe you need to reconsider the kind of man you think it's worth being.

Canterelle

Could we get a wtf button alongside the thanks?

I just realised I'm a horrible sexist person. I make pots of tea in the office and I always say I'll be 'mother' (I'm English) and pour it for everyone. I thought I was being nice, but I suppose this is no defence.

I've just realised that I've been infantalising the men in the office, that I'm implying they can't pour their own tea, that I'm reinforcing traditional outdated gender roles and relegating myself to a menial service role. In future I'm throwing them a teabag and leaving them to fend for themselves.

It's the egalitarian thing to do.

Fat Christy

Candie wrote: »

I just realised I'm a horrible sexist person. I make pots of tea in the office and I always say I'll be 'mother' (I'm English) and pour it for everyone. I thought I was being nice, but I suppose this is no defence.

I've just realised that I've been infantalising the men in the office, that I'm implying they can't pour their own tea, that I'm reinforcing traditional outdated gender roles and relegating myself to a menial service role. In future I'm throwing them a teabag and leaving them to fend for themselves.

It's the egalitarian thing to do.

Here, here sister.

I do the same thing! What are we like?! I'll be throwing them a wet teabag, that'll learn them.

katydid

katydid wrote: »

You don't have to carry on doing something just because you were raised to do it. The type of man who, in this day and age, offers a perfectly healthy woman a seat is being patronising. So maybe you need to reconsider the kind of man you think it's worth being.

Thats only your opinion. I think it's a random act of kindness and the world needs more of them, not less. I've carried an older colleagues books to his car, though I know he's able to himself. He appreciates the gesture and the chat on the way. Consideration is a social skill.

You can politely decline a kind offer, you're not compelled to take them up on it. That's what I usually do, but I make a point of being appreciative.

myshirt

I'd always give the seat to a lady, a kid, or an older person /anyone who might favour it or need it.

I suppose just don't mind standing. Never thought it through in 'equality' terms. Maybe a bit over the top? Equality agenda gone mad?

katydid

Candie wrote: »

Thats only your opinion. I think it's a random act of kindness and the world needs more of them, not less. I've carried an older colleagues books to his car, though I know he's able to himself. He appreciates the gesture and the chat on the way. Consideration is a social skill.

You can politely decline a kind offer, you're not compelled to take them up on it. That's what I usually do, but I make a point of being appreciative.

No, it's not just my opinion. If you base your act on gender instead of need or randomness, you're being patronising. A woman doesn't automatically need to be given a seat.

If you want to do random acts of kindness, do it as the mood takes you, for men or women.

katydid

myshirt wrote: »

I'd always give the seat to a lady, a kid, or an older person /anyone who might favour it or need it.

I suppose, just don't mind standing. Never thought it through in 'equality' terms. Maybe a bit over the top? Equality agenda gone mad?

Why would a "lady" or a kid need it more than you?

If you base your act on gender instead of need or randomness, you're being patronising

Do you not think that a well intentioned act of consideration is the wrong thing to get upset about?

I've no idea if the person offering me a seat is doing so just because I'm female, maybe they think I look tired or my bag is heavy. In order to see it as you do, I have to make assumptions, ones that might be wrong. So I'll choose to see it as a random act of kindness that I'm free to decline, not some act of oppression designed to make me feel lesser.

Buona Fortuna

Azalea wrote: »

I THINK they mean in self defence (the hitting part).

I think...

You would hope so.

katydid

ThinkProgress wrote: »

If men and women were created exactly equal, then inequalities wouldn't exist in the first place. Many feminists think they don't need any assistance from us men to make this world a more gender equal environment.

But this is just deluded thinking. If men didn't concede some ground (by their own volition), then equality would not be possible.

Ok, perhaps some men go too far sometimes. But they still don't deserve to be heavily criticized for it.

Gender equality does not mean that men and women are identical creatures. Or that we should even be striving for that end goal.

It seems to me that some people are living in denial. And if you do or say anything that suggests men and women might have some subtle differences... well you get the angry bitter reactions.

I can treat women fairly in this world, without treating them like they're identical to men. Getting hugely offended because some well-intentioned person does something that slightly recognizes the subtle differences between men and women... that's just crazy and deluded behavior.

Women and men are not identical. In certain cases, lifting heavy weights, for example, it makes sense for a man to offer assistance to a woman. But standing on a bus, unless the person is clearly in need of assistance, it makes no sense to offer someone a seat simply because they are female.

myshirt

katydid wrote: »

Why would a "lady" or a kid need it more than you?

I say 'need' in respect of the people not able to stand for a bus journey, or who would have a better time sitting down. So an older person, a child with small legs who does twice the walking, a pregnant lady or so on.

The rest of people I just ask politely if they'd like the seat. I hope they don't take it as patronising. Christ, I must rethink. Never hit me that the equality agenda stretched this far. I'd just do it and think no more about it. Don't want a high five or anything. My god lads, this thread is mad.

katydid

Candie wrote: »

Do you not think that a well intentioned act of consideration is the wrong thing to get upset about?

I've no idea if the person offering me a seat is doing so just because I'm female, maybe they think I look tired or my bag is heavy. In order to see it as you do, I have to make assumptions, ones that might be wrong. So I'll choose to see it as a random act of kindness that I'm free to decline, not some act of oppression designed to make me feel lesser.

An act can be well intentioned but wrongly judged.

The question is if a man would offer another man who looked tired a seat...