Rush for Irish passports brought on by Brexit fears

Cool_CM

Rattser wrote: »

None of these people have any interest in becoming part of Irish society. They are obtaining citizenship for purely selfish reasons.

Yes.
They see the opportunity to take advantage of the situation.
They are going about it in a 'cute hoor-ish' way.
That would make them 'cute hoors'.

P_1

Nationalism is such a ridiculous prospect. I see no reason why someone should not take the means of ensuring they get the benefit of an EU passport particularly if the English right wing get their way and the person concerned did not want to follow their madness.

LeeLooLee

Rattser wrote: »

Born in Britain, so I guess she would be considered British. I consider Irish people to be people who actually live here for a significant amount of time, born or raised here. How can one claim to be Irish otherwise?

That's such an ignorant attitude. Not everyone is born in Ballywherever, to parents who met at secondary school and have never lived anywhere else. I was born in Germany because my dad was working there and spent my early years in various European countries. What nationality am I, then? I'm certainly not German. I don't even speak the language.

Must have an easy life to find issue with this.

Rattser

LeeLooLee wrote: »

That's such an ignorant attitude. Not everyone is born in Ballywherever, to parents who met at secondary school and have never lived anywhere else. I was born in Germany because my dad was working there and spent my early years in various European countries. What nationality am I, then? I'm certainly not German. I don't even speak the language.

It's not an ignorant attitude. Yours is. Anyway, if someone was not born here, raised here or has never lived in Ireland, how can they realistically claim to be part of Irish society? What's the purpose of citizenship, if not that?

It certainly shouldn't be 'back up' for someone who has never lived here. It's ridiculous giving them citizenship.

Chain Smoker

If these people get Irish passports, will their grandchildren be eligible to play for Ireland in World Cup 2058?

LeeLooLee

Rattser wrote: »

It's not an ignorant attitude. Yours is. Anyway, if someone was not born here, raised here or has never lived in Ireland, how can they realistically claim to be part of Irish society? What's the purpose of citizenship, if not that?

It certainly shouldn't be 'back up' for someone who has never lived here. It's ridiculous giving them citizenship.

You don't need to live in Ireland to be Irish. Am I not Irish just because I was born in another country and lived abroad? Again, what nationality am I, then? There are plenty of people in Britain and other countries who feel Irish and hold Irish passports despite never having lived in Ireland.

endacl

Ruu wrote: »

I dislike the use of phrase 'Brexit'!!

Also 'Bread'. As in 'Brexit thread'.

riffmongous

I agree OP, I think there should have to be some sort of basic knowledge about Ireland exam before you are entitled to a passport, and it has to be sat in Ireland.

Questions could include naming all the counties and picking which one you are to be affiliated with, extra credit if you wear the gaa jersey to the exam

Singing a ballad, wearing of the green or the rising of the moon

riffmongous

I agree OP, I think there should have to be some sort of basic knowledge about Ireland exam before you are entitled to a passport, and it has to be sat in Ireland.

Questions could include naming all the counties and picking which one you are to be affiliated with, extra credit if you wear the gaa jersey to the exam

Singing a ballad, wearing of the green or the rising of the moon

Hasschu

The Irish/EU passport is very useful for the children and grandchildren of Irish emigrants. In the first place they are well disposed towards Ireland and are in Facebook and other groups with their relatives. In my case the children are Irish-German and the German Gov't does not confer citizenship on the offspring of German women. I notice that when the children are in Ireland they are Irish, in Germany they are German (they speak German) and in Canada they are Canadian. The Irish/EU passport is useful to me because the US and Canada impose Visa restrictions on all of South America and those countries retaliate by charging a $250 entry fee on US/Cdn passport holders. The children travel to France/Germany/Italy and the Middle East on business where there is some hostility toward US/Cdn passport holders depending on who bombed whom recently.
There are 70 to 80 million Irish descendants around the globe most of whom know where they came from. On balance it is good for Ireland to keep a good relationship with the Irish diaspora. Particularly when the Irish economy has been unstable since 1922 and the last nationwide famine was in 1879. The present political situation has been played out many times in Ireland. We are an exceptional people broken up into groups of true believers who are incapable of cooperating with each other and where the "common good" is an idea not yet entrenched in the public consciousness.
Or perhaps a lot of you think that an "ourselves alone" policy on our little island on the edge of Europe is appropriate. Where only the virgin white and lily pure born of two Irish parents on an Irish bog in the rain are entitled to a passport. We are masters of the art of grossly exaggerating minor differences including race, religion, class and more recently education. As a matter I have noticed that race is frequently referred to as breed (as in dem Brennans are a bad breed, bad cess to dem).

suicide_circus

We should charge 800 euro for a passport.

ONE FOR EVERY YEAR THE BASTARDS OPPRESSED US.

EDit

It's surprising that some of the examples given above of those considering this are what you would expect to be intelligent people (eg, a professor from Oxford poly) when this is clearly scaremongering. The idea that British people working/living in the EU will instantly become illegal immigrants and have to get visas to continue to work is ridiculous. Likewise, the concern (which I have seen banded around on the web) that all the British expats on the Costa del Sol and Algarve are suddenly going to get taxed to the hilt to live in Spain/Portugal is equally ridiculous.

For one thing large numbers of British people worked and lived in various European countries way before the European Union existed, so any move to penalise Brits abroad after a Brexit would be extremely regressive (and would come across a pretty petulant). Secondly, the knock on effect of any move to penalise Brits abroad by an EU country would be that the UK would retaliate and penalise people from that country living and working in the UK. Even if the UK does leave, no one wants this to turn into a tit-for-tat cluster**** and deals will be done to try to maintain as much of the status quo as possible.

RDM_83 again

EDit wrote: »

It's surprising that some of the examples given above of those considering this are what you would expect to be intelligent people (eg, a professor from Oxford poly) when this is clearly scaremongering. The idea that British people working/living in the EU will instantly become illegal immigrants and have to get visas to continue to work is ridiculous. Likewise, the concern (which I have seen banded around on the web) that all the British expats on the Costa del Sol and Algarve are suddenly going to get taxed to the hilt to live in Spain/Portugal is equally ridiculous.

For one thing large numbers of British people worked and lived in various European countries way before the European Union existed, so any move to penalise Brits abroad after a Brexit would be extremely regressive (and would come across a pretty petulant). Secondly, the knock on effect of any move to penalise Brits abroad by an EU country would be that the UK would retaliate and penalise people from that country living and working in the UK. Even if the UK does leave, no one wants this to turn into a tit-for-tat cluster**** and deals will be done to try to maintain as much of the status quo as possible.

I do think this actually has a potential to be quite costly too Ireland if Brexit occurs as Rattser mentioned its the health thing that may be an issue, there is a lot of British with Irish descent (6 million mentioned) if say 100,000 of them are retirees in continental Europe that would be a huge health care cost to the Irish state for people that have never made contributions to pensions etc

That said I am a dual citizen myself (Can claim through multiple channels) and I do think people having an emotional connection to Ireland has a lot of advantages to us due to a positive image abroad and tourism.

My solution would be to retain the right to citizenship but change the procedure for application for those claiming by descent (NI thing is different to this), make it so that one has to apply in person within Ireland for citizenship and that the relevant documentation has to be collected in person in a months time in person.

This would boost tourism, mean that those claiming citizenship experience Ireland in person but also wouldn't be a huge barrier for those that place an importance on being an Irish citizen.

Your Face

Entertaining narrative.

Rattser

LeeLooLee wrote: »

There are plenty of people in Britain and other countries who feel Irish and hold Irish passports despite never having lived in Ireland.

And that is absolutely ridiculous. How can can one seriously claim to be Irish if they've never even lived here? They're not Irish. They're not part of Irish society. They're of Irish descent or ancestry.

LeeLooLee

Rattser wrote: »

And that is absolutely ridiculous. How can can one seriously claim to be Irish if they've never even lived here? They're not Irish. They're not part of Irish society. They're of Irish descent or ancestry.

Heavy sigh.

OK, so I should give up my Irish passport, then, because I've lived outside Ireland far longer than I've lived in it.

Please do tell me which passport I should apply for. Or am I not entitled to any?

Rattser

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Heavy sigh.

OK, so I should give up my Irish passport, then, because I've lived outside Ireland far longer than I've lived in it.

Please do tell me which passport I should apply for. Or am I not entitled to any?

Sigh, indeed. I don't think that you're reading my posts. You took offence and jumped right in.

Anyway, if someone was not born here, raised here or has never lived in Ireland, how can they realistically claim to be part of Irish society? What's the purpose of citizenship, if not that? 

I consider Irish people to be people who actually live here for a significant amount of time, born or raised here. How can one claim to be Irish otherwise?

Irish citizenship should be for those who are a part of Irish society. By birth, parentage, being raised here or by moving and living here for a significant amount of time.

I've no quarrel with you having Irish citizenship. I do have an issue with those born and raised abroad, to parents born and raised abroad, who has never lived here, being given citizenship. They're patently not Irish.

LeeLooLee

Rattser wrote: »

Sigh, indeed. I don't think that you're reading my posts. You took offence and jumped right in.







I've no quarrel with you having Irish citizenship. I do have an issue with those born and raised abroad, to parents born and raised abroad, who has never lived here, being given citizenship. They're patently not Irish.

It's not always that simple. I live abroad now, because I had to emigrate because there were no jobs in Ireland. Not my fault. If I have a child while still living abroad, are they not allowed to be Irish because I wasn't born in Ireland?

Rattser

LeeLooLee wrote: »

It's not always that simple. I live abroad now, because I had to emigrate because there were no jobs in Ireland. Not my fault. If I have a child while still living abroad, are they not allowed to be Irish because I wasn't born in Ireland?

Depends where they're born and raised. Not born and raised here and their parents were not born and raised here, then it's a stretch to call them Irish.

As things stand they'll get it due to having an Irish born granny.

Rattser

P_1 wrote: »

Nationalism is such a ridiculous prospect. I see no reason why someone should not take the means of ensuring they get the benefit of an EU passport particularly if the English right wing get their way and the person concerned did not want to follow their madness.

I see no reason as to why this concerns us or why we should give them citizenship if their country decides to leave the EU. That is the British people's business. Not ours.

Our nations passport should not be mere 'back up' for people who have never lived here and have no interest in living here. They're not part of Irish society and therefore should not hold citizenship of this country.

Rattser

suicide_circus wrote: »

We should charge 800 euro for a passport.

ONE FOR EVERY YEAR THE BASTARDS OPPRESSED US.

We should definitely charge them a four figure sum. If they want an EU passport, then let them pay for it.

Fratton Fred

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Heavy sigh.

OK, so I should give up my Irish passport, then, because I've lived outside Ireland far longer than I've lived in it.

Please do tell me which passport I should apply for. Or am I not entitled to any?

You need to win an Oscar, or a Nobel prize or something. You'd be as Irish Brian Boru then.

LeeLooLee

Rattser wrote: »

Depends where they're born and raised. Not born and raised here and their parents were not born and raised here, then it's a stretch to call them Irish.

As things stand they'll get it due to having an Irish born granny.

Not really a stretch. My parents both live in Ireland now. All my aunts and uncles and cousins have always lived there. We're a very culturally Irish family. It annoys me that leaving Ireland to find work means you're not considered Irish. We are a nation of emigrants after all. Would you rather we all just sat on the dole? If I give up my job here and go home and have a child born on Irish soil, is that better? If I had a child, I would most likely give them an Irish name and I'd like them to learn Irish, even if we lived here on the continent or elsewhere. They'd probably speak English with an Irish accent like mine. So I would definitely consider them Irish.

jeamimus

I don't mind expats having passports and not living here.

Its the ones that live here and think they're still living in a place five hundred years away that i have issues with...

Rattser

jeamimus wrote: »

I don't mind expats having passports and not living here.

Its the ones that live here and think they're still living in a place five hundred years away that i have issues with...

They're not 'expats' if their last Irish relative was a grandparent. They're not ex anything. They're foreigners of Irish descent.

Rattser

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Not really a stretch. My parents both live in Ireland now. All my aunts and uncles and cousins have always lived there. We're a very culturally Irish family. It annoys me that leaving Ireland to find work means you're not considered Irish. We are a nation of emigrants after all. Would you rather we all just sat on the dole? If I give up my job here and go home and have a child born on Irish soil, is that better? If I had a child, I would most likely give them an Irish name and I'd like them to learn Irish, even if we lived here on the continent or elsewhere. They'd probably speak English with an Irish accent like mine. So I would definitely consider them Irish.

Consider them what you want. If the parent wasn't born and raised here and neither was the child, then they're stretching it a bit by claiming that they're as Irish as people born, raised and who lived here for a considerable length of time.

People born and raised abroad to parents born and raised abroad, are not Irish. They're of Irish descent. I don't know why me saying this annoys you.

Unless they spend a considerable amount of time Iiving here, they should not hold citizenship. Citizenship should be for those who are part of Irish society. What is the point of citizenship, if not that? It's definitely not so people can queue in the EU line instead of the non EEA line.

LeeLooLee

Rattser wrote: »

Consider them what you want. If the parent wasn't born and raised here and neither was the child, then they're stretching it a bit by claiming that they're as Irish as people born, raised and who lived here for a considerable length of time.

People born and raised abroad to parents born and raised abroad, are not Irish. They're of Irish descent. I don't know why me saying this annoys you.

Unless they spend a considerable amount of time Iiving here, they should not hold citizenship. Citizenship should be for those who are part of Irish society. What is the point of citizenship, if not that? It's definitely not so people can queue in the EU line instead of the non EEA line.

Because I don't think you need to live in Ireland to feel, or be, Irish! Your point of view is incredibly narrow-minded. It's not some sort of competition as to who is more Irish. I didn't live in Ireland as a child, but I spoke with an Irish accent, ate Irish food, and my identity was that of an Irish person. I lived in Belgium for a good few years as a kid and I never felt Belgian and I certainly was never treated as Belgian. I now live in Spain, and if I had a child here, the child would NOT be entitled to a Spanish passport unless their father was Spanish. So they would have an Irish passport like I do. Even though they weren't born in Ireland and I wasn't born in Ireland.

I'm far from a unique case. What you're proposing would leave thousands of people with no nationality and no identity. And even if my child's father were Spanish, I would still like the child to have an Irish passport, simply because I am Irish and it's an important part of their identity.

Rattser

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Because I don't think you need to live in Ireland to feel, or be, Irish! Your point of view is incredibly narrow-minded. It's not some sort of competition as to who is more Irish. I didn't live in Ireland as a child, but I spoke with an Irish accent, ate Irish food, and my identity was that of an Irish person. I lived in Belgium for a good few years as a kid and I never felt Belgian and I certainly was never treated as Belgian. I now live in Spain, and if I had a child here, the child would NOT be entitled to a Spanish passport unless their father was Spanish. So they would have an Irish passport like I do. Even though they weren't born in Ireland and I wasn't born in Ireland.

I'm far from a unique case. What you're proposing would leave thousands of people with no nationality and no identity. And even if my child's father were Spanish, I would still like the child to have an Irish passport, simply because I am Irish and it's an important part of their identity.

The whole purpose of citizenship is that you're part of a society. You can be super Irish if you want. You, nor your hypothetical kid born and raised abroad, will not be part of Irish society. So why should your foreign born child, born to a foreign born mother, be an Irish citizen? The point of citizenship is not how 'Irish' you feel. But that you're a part of Irish society.

You might not need to live in Ireland to feel Irish. Look at Boston. But you should have to have at least lived here for some time if you want Irish citizenship. I don't think this is unfair.

LeeLooLee

Rattser wrote: »

The whole purpose of citizenship is that you're part of a society. You can be super Irish if you want. You, nor your hypothetical kid born and raised abroad, will not be part of Irish society. So why should your foreign born child, born to a foreign born mother, be an Irish citizen? The point of citizenship is not how 'Irish' you feel. But that you're a part of Irish society.

You might not need to live in Ireland to feel Irish. Look at Boston. But you should have to have at least lived here for some time if you want Irish citizenship. I don't think this is unfair.

My hypothetical kid may not be entitled to any other citizenship. Doesn't that strike you as crazy? My child has to be stateless and passportless because people like you think Irish = living in Ireland?