Rush for Irish passports brought on by Brexit fears

Rattser

Mr.S wrote: »

Why do you have to "live" in a country to be considered that nationality?

Lets take this example below...



If they have Irish parents or grandparents, they are indeed Irish.

How can you claim to be Irish if you've never lived here? If you've never lived here, you're not part of Irish society, so why should you hold citizenship? What is the point of citizenship, if not that?

I can see the merits of giving citizenship to children born abroad to Irish parents. It would create a lot of unnecessary problems and stresses if you didn't. It makes sense giving them citizenship. But giving it to those with an Irish grandparent makes little sense. They were born and raised abroad to parents born and raised broad. They're not Irish. They're of Irish descent.

Irishmale0399

Having lived in Germany for the last 17 years I was recently faced with the option of taking a German passport. This is something I didnt do as I dont consider myself as being German and am proud of my Irish roots.

Now on the matter of giving passports to people entitled to them I am personally of the following opinion:
1. The person is born in Ireland and therefore entitled
2. A parent holds an Irish passport, lives in another state and wishes that his/her child has an Irish passport.....No problem

On the matter of my grandmother holding an Irish passport and therefore it entitles me to have one.....I have a very simple solution...
1. Grandmother and a parent hold a current Irish passport.....then No problem.
2. Grandmother has/had an Irish passport, parent has held a passport to another country for a period of time, child holds the same citizenship as the parent......then wants to be Irish....OK they can be Irish but have to either.....
1. Pay above and beyond the normal fee
2. Return to Ireland and be part of society without living off benifits

It cannot be a case of ohhh we want to be Irish now as we have European benifits, something we wont have if we are British.....lets be Irish for the craic. What the government has to remember is one very simple thing (if I remember rightly Dermot Ahern publically said something similar when minister of FA)"Every passport holder has a right to enter the country when and if they wish. When there they also have the right to basic medical and social care.......etc.etc.. Is it fair to expect the Irish tax payer to cover these costs or the EU??

Rattser

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

It cannot be a case of ohhh we want to be Irish now as we have European benifits, something we wont have if we are British.....lets be Irish for the craic. What the government has to remember is one very simple thing (if I remember rightly Dermot Ahern publically said something similar when minister of FA)"Every passport holder has a right to enter the country when and if they wish. When there they also have the right to basic medical and social care.......etc.etc.. Is it fair to expect the Irish tax payer to cover these costs or the EU??

It's not the EU making us offer very generous citizenship by descent laws, so why would they pay a cent? The law is of our own making.

Rattser

Mr.S wrote: »

Yikes :rolleyes:

Explain to me how someone who has never lived here, was born and raised abroad, to parents born and raised abroad, is Irish?

Irishmale0399

Rattser wrote: »

It's not the EU making us offer very generous citizenship by descent laws, so why would they pay a cent? The law is of our own making.

No but EU passport holders have the right to basic care in any EU country as it currently stands per EU law. So is it fair for someone working and paying taxes in London using his/her Irish passport (when it suits) they got because granny was Irish to avail of these services??? These common aggreement services are being financed by the EU as a whole.

dd972

Rattser wrote: »

I think living in Ireland makes someone more Irish than someone who has never lived here, yes. A child born and raised in Spain, and who has never lived here, is not Irish.

So their parentage, ethnicity, culture, family, upbringing and the regular trips back to Ireland count for nothing then, it's a bit akin to telling us you'd be black if you were born in Nigeria to the same parents.

steddyeddy

dd972 wrote: »

So their parentage, ethnicity, culture, family, upbringing and the regular trips back to Ireland count for nothing then, it's a bit akin to telling us you'd be black if you were born in Nigeria to the same parents.

No but you'd be Nigerian. Nigerian does not equal black.

Elemonator

I hold both passports. There is a multitude of reasons other than Brexit that people hold them. It's been very useful for me.

Asaiah

I hate this islander attitude. The Irish are a global identity and one can be Irish by descent.

Does the OP not recognise ethnicity or something? Is Irishness a political identity only ?

riffmongous

You can be Irish ethnically alright while having nothing to do with the country or state, but should you still be entitled to a passport though?

The Hill Billy

I would like to point out that the Passport processing office is in Balbriggan - not Rush as indicated in the thread title.

Hasschu

The Irish emigrants had the good luck of emigrating to countries that were and are to this day prosperous. Ireland itself had a very good run for the fifteen years prior to 2008. It is highly unlikely that children or grandchildren of Irish emigrants will return to Ireland from countries that are more prosperous and have lower unemployment rates. However, the Irish/EU passport allows the German and French speakers to enter German and French universities on the same conditions including fees as German and French born students. They can travel the world more conveniently with 2 passports than with one. This does not cost Ireland a single cent. The type of begrudgery and skulduggery that brought Ireland down in 2008 is a homegrown pestilence that might be lessened slightly by allowing people who have lived in well governed countries to vote in General Elections. Only the emigrants understand the importance of governing for the common good as opposed to what passes for good government in Ireland. A good example for what ails Ireland is the "water" question. A country where mothers forbid their children to dig holes in the back yard because the 2 year could fall in and drown is now in a turmoil over how water can be managed. I hear little that makes sense and the only consistent thread is "we will not pay for water".

It would make sense to hear.
1) The quality of water delivered in Ireland is highly variable with some of it being positively poisonous.

2) What would be the best way to manage and charge for Ireland's potable water resources. Nationally, Provincially, by County, by watershed.

3) Should water charges be incorporated into Property Taxes in full or in part, in part implying metering and charging.

4. How can water quality be assured. By a National Agency conducting random sampling and testing, by residents submitting samples for testing to the agency. By making delivery of non potable water a criminal offense. By electing honest politicians who might have a faint notion of what constitutes the public good.

5. Delivering potable water costs, in Ireland very little compared with other drier countries. The costs must be accounted for on income tax, property tax, wealth tax, tariffs, fees, metered charges. Or you can disconnect and run the down pipe off the roof into the kitchen and bathroom. Which would leave you with the sewage disposal fee unless you disconnected from that and subscribed to a holding tank and weekly pump out service.
The root of the problem is deeply embedded in the culture and will not be rooted out any time soon. What an exceptional culture it is.

dresden8

Time to introduce worldwide taxation on Irish passport holders.

Rattser

dresden8 wrote: »

Time to introduce worldwide taxation on Irish passport holders.

Maybe for those who get it through grandparents etc. If they want all the perks of citizenship without ever living here and contributing, then we should hit them up.

Rattser

Hasschu wrote: »

It is highly unlikely that children or grandchildren of Irish emigrants will return to Ireland from countries that are more prosperous and have lower unemployment rates. However, the Irish/EU passport allows the German and French speakers to enter German and French universities on the same conditions including fees as German and French born students. They can travel the world more conveniently with 2 passports than with one.

So we should dish out citizenship to your kids and theirs, people who have no intention of ever living in Ireland, so they can go to university for free and travel the world easier? Do you have an idea of the concept of citizenship?

Mate, an Irish passport isn't a fecking priority club card. It's not something people should be given so they can get freebies and better service! Jesus Christ, would you listen to yourself.

Rattser

Asaiah wrote: »

I hate this Isander attitude. The Irish are a global identity and one can be Irish by descent.

Does the OP not recognise ethnicity or something? Is Irishness a political identity only ?

If somebody abroad wants to call themselves Irish, that's no skin off my nose. But unless they have lived here or are born to an Irish born parent, then they shouldn't hold Irish citizenship. I don't think that's unreasonable.

Junkyard Tom

Rattser wrote: »

If somebody abroad wants to call themselves Irish, that's no skin off my nose. But unless they have lived here or are born to an Irish born parent, then they shouldn't hold Irish citizenship. I don't think that's unreasonable.

We have quite a number of people who've lived in Ireland for generations who describe themselves as 'British Only' in polls.

People have a natural right to self-identify as they see fit. There is no 'Irishness test' much as you'd wish for one.

I think we should be rather chuffed that people want to self-identify as Irish.

Rattser

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

We have quite a number of people who've lived in Ireland for generations who describe themselves as 'British Only' in polls.

People have a natural right to self-identify as they see fit. There is no 'Irishness test' much as you'd wish for one.

I think we should be rather chuffed that people want to self-identify as Irish.

If somebody has never lived here, then it is ridiculous for them to hold citizenship. Especially if their last Irish relative was a grandparent.

They can call themselves Irish if they want. I don't give two ****s about that.

LeeLooLee

steddyeddy wrote: »

No but you'd be Nigerian. Nigerian does not equal black.

But you wouldn't. You'd be Irish living in Nigeria. I don't know what planet you people are on who think living somewhere means you're from there. I live in Spain and kids of foreigners who were born here are not considered Spanish at all. There are a lot of British families here, British kids who were born here and go to school here and they don't consider themselves Spanish and more to the point, the Spanish most definitely don't consider them Spanish.

The J Stands for Jay

Rattser wrote: »

The point of citizenship is not how 'Irish' you feel.

Didn't we have a referendum a few years back to say that this pretty much was the case? Changed articles 2 and 3.

osarusan

Rattser wrote: »

If somebody has never lived here, then it is ridiculous for them to hold citizenship. Especially if their last Irish relative was a grandparent.

They can call themselves Irish if they want. I don't give two ****s about that.

Take it up with the government if it means so much to you.

Let us know if they get back to you.

Rattser

McGaggs wrote: »

Didn't we have a referendum a few years back to say that this pretty much was the case? Changed articles 2 and 3.

It meant that citizenship wasn't automatic if the child didn't have an Irish parent or a parent who hasn't lived in the country for more than three years.

But we give citizenship to children born and raised abroad, to parents born and raised abroad?

Rattser

LeeLooLee wrote: »

But you wouldn't. You'd be Irish living in Nigeria. I don't know what planet you people are on who think living somewhere means you're from there. I live in Spain and kids of foreigners who were born here are not considered Spanish at all. There are a lot of British families here, British kids who were born here and go to school here and they don't consider themselves Spanish and more to the point, the Spanish most definitely don't consider them Spanish.

They're a lot more Spanish than Irish if they've never lived in Ireland.

spurious

Rattser wrote: »

It meant that citizenship wasn't automatic if the child didn't have an Irish parent or a parent who hasn't lived in the country for more than three years.

But we give citizenship to children born and raised abroad, to parents born and raised abroad?

Don't mention 'brown', which was at the back of that. We don't mind English Irish, but we hadn't the balls to say outright what that referendum was about.

Rattser

spurious wrote: »

Don't mention 'brown', which was at the back of that. We don't mind English Irish, but we hadn't the balls to say outright what that referendum was about.

I'd rather a child, born and raised here, of whatever background, being given citizenship than someone with an Irish granny and who only obtained it for their own gain and to have an EU passport. The child born here is part of Irish society so they should be an Irish citizen.

Asaiah

Rattser wrote: »

If somebody abroad wants to call themselves Irish, that's no skin off my nose. But unless they have lived here or are born to an Irish born parent, then they shouldn't hold Irish citizenship. I don't think that's unreasonable.

I am talking abotu 2nd and 3rd generation Irish who were born to Irish parents.

Asaiah

Rattser wrote: »

I'd rather a child, born and raised here, of whatever background, being given citizenship than someone with an Irish granny and who only obtained it for their own gain and to have an EU passport. The child born here is part of Irish society so they should be an Irish citizen.

What's wrong with more people from the Irish diaspora having an Irish passport? Might encourage people to invest and work in Ireland.

Can you explain why it is a negative for Ireland if 2nd and 3rd Generation Irish people get a passport and move to Ireland?

Rattser

Asaiah wrote: »

What's wrong with more people from the Irish diaspora having an Irish passport? Might encourage people to invest and work in Ireland.

Can you explain why it is a negative for Ireland if 2nd and 3rd Generation Irish people get a passport and move to Ireland?

It's not a negative if they move to Ireland. I've no issue whatsoever with anyone who actually lives here, or who has lived here, holding Irish citizenship. They are part of Irish society and should have Irish citizenship.

My issue is with people who have never lived here obtaining it as a 'back up', to have an EU passport or purely for their own gain.

Asaiah

Rattser wrote: »

It's not a negative if they move to Ireland. I've no issue whatsoever with anyone who actually lives here, or who has lived here, holding Irish citizenship. They are part of Irish society and should have Irish citizenship.

My issue is with people who have never lived here obtaining it as a 'back up', to have an EU passport or purely for their own gain.

Ok but again if they are Irish what is the issue with that? We all obtain passports purely for our own gain.

*Edit, upon reflection of what you said, I do agree that a person should spend at least a few years in the Republic or the North to obtain a passport through descent. At the very least they should intend to live here in the future for a period of abour 3-5 years or invest here.

However, I think 2nd generation born abroad should be entitled to a passport at birth. For example if someone from Ireland moves to the UK and has a baby, that baby should be entitled to an Irish passport. For subsequent generations I think a nominal amount of time should be spent in Ireland before they can apply.

LeeLooLee

Rattser wrote: »

They're a lot more Spanish than Irish if they've never lived in Ireland.

Have you ever lived abroad? Been to the Spanish costas? There are places near me where you walk into bars and cafes and the owners are British or Irish and don't speak a word of Spanish. They send their children to British schools and have Sky TV from the UK beamed in via satellite dishes. Those kids are about as Spanish as a pint of Guinness. And I'm not talking about a few families. I'm talking hundreds of thousands.

Welcome to our new citizens!

Siobhan Mooney from London has never even been to Ireland>

The comments are nearly as good

Catholic priests holding sway. Theocracy in the same status as Iran Ayatollahs. Read "Ratlines " by Stuart Nevelle, to know how, Charles Haughey let Nazis from Germany clandestinely settle in Ireland. Bye to those of you who want to leave to Ireland. If you have daughters, then tough luck as pro-life Catholic priests run riot.>

Reading the Guardian makes me angry.

Hasschu

While a lot of us on here are kind hearted and generous souls. There are the close minded begrudgers who protect their turf like the characters in John B Keane's book The Field which was made into a film of the same name. This is the result of hundreds of years living in poverty which started to improve under Sean Lemass and improved enormously with entry into the EEC in May 1972. The set back in 2008 and subsequently was akin to grasping poverty from the jaws of prosperity. Without a doubt a self inflicted catastrophe caused by politicians enabling the pumping up of the property market at the expense of manufacturing and service jobs. It will probably take 3 or 4 more generations to shake off our troubled past, that is if the economy grows and unemployment drops below 6%.

Rattser

Hasschu wrote: »

While a lot of us on here are kind hearted and generous souls. There are the close minded begrudgers who protect their turf like the characters in John B Keane's book The Field which was made into a film of the same name. This is the result of hundreds of years living in poverty which started to improve under Sean Lemass and improved enormously with entry into the EEC in May 1972. The set back in 2008 and subsequently was akin to grasping poverty from the jaws of prosperity. Without a doubt a self inflicted catastrophe caused by politicians enabling the pumping up of the property market at the expense of manufacturing and service jobs. It will probably take 3 or 4 more generations to shake off our troubled past, that is if the economy grows and unemployment drops below 6%.

Norway is one of the most egalitarian country's on the planet. In Norway, those born abroad to Norwegian parents lose their citizenship at 22 if they've never lived there. You cannot claim citizenship through a grandparent.

Are they a nation of 'close minded begrudgers' or do they realise that to be a citizen you need to be part of Norwegian society and actually spend some time living there? I'd claim the latter.

Rattser

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Have you ever lived abroad? Been to the Spanish costas? There are places near me where you walk into bars and cafes and the owners are British or Irish and don't speak a word of Spanish. They send their children to British schools and have Sky TV from the UK beamed in via satellite dishes. Those kids are about as Spanish as a pint of Guinness. And I'm not talking about a few families. I'm talking hundreds of thousands.

Yes, I've been to Spain and it's bad form from a sizeable number of British immigrants not to even attempt to integrate. Anyway, they aren't able to claim British citizenship past second generation.

Spanish Eyes

If someone holds an Irish Passport and also holds another (dual citizenship) no matter under what rule, they should pay some form of taxation in this country with no double tax credits either.

That would sort the men from the boys.

ancapailldorcha

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

If someone holds an Irish Passport and also holds another (dual citizenship) no matter under what rule, they should pay some form of taxation in this country with no double tax credits either.

That would sort the men from the boys.

What would we be getting in return for these absurd taxes?

osarusan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What would we be getting in return for these absurd taxes?

The right to grow shamrock, carry a shillelagh, wistfully close your eyes and listen along to traditional music, and drink a pint of Guinness in one go before plonking the empty glass on the table/counter and looking round you proudly.

Priceless stuff.

Asaiah

Allyall wrote: »

Ninja Edit Asaiah...

I realized that argueing on the web would be a waste of time. Off to enjoy the weekend. :cool: