UK home secretary Rudd says she will ‘flush out’ employers that don’t hire locally

end of the road

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Yeah it's very one sided though, Liam Cunningham shouting how "shamefull" Ireland is.

it is very much 2 sided. both sides are given a chance and they're is a wide debate. you can always ring email or write in if you feel something isn't being covered to your requirements.

AnGaelach

end of the road wrote:

it is very much 2 sided. both sides are given a chance and they're is a wide debate. you can always ring in if you feel something isn't being covered to your requirements.

You're really going to judge whether we have a national debate on immigration by referring to Joe Duffy or FM104's talk shows? Ah Jaysus.

VinLieger

JJEire wrote: »

"So the US ambassdor to the UN wasnt born in Ireland?"

She's an American citizen.

The guardian reported that even people with dual citizenship were to be excluded

Annasopra

Letree wrote: »

They will have left the EU and the free movement of labour is a big issue for them. So a polish worker will not have the same rights as an English worker in a few years time.

They would probably have to abandon the European Convention on human rights and leave the council of europe to do that. Not sure why Irish people think this is so brilliant. It's like stepping backwards intime to the era of no blacks, no dogs, no Irish

Annasopra

Water John wrote: »

Sorry for ye great supporters of this naming and shaming. The Tories are in full retreat on this today.

Nope

Partial retreat.

They will to collect the data for government but not publish

Water John

Its saving face on a U turn. I can even see it from here, in Cork.

AnGaelach

Joeytheparrot wrote:

They would probably have to abandon the European Convention on human rights and leave the council of europe to do that. Not sure why Irish people think this is so brilliant. It's like stepping backwards intime to the era of no blacks, no dogs, no Irish

Yeah but this time it's "no blacks no dogs irish are allowed" so it evens out I suppose.

Annasopra

AnGaelach wrote: »

Yeah but this time it's "no blacks no dogs irish are allowed" so it evens out I suppose.

Huh?

The logical conclusion of these arguments is also anti Irish. We're talking about Xenophobia which wants a British Britain for Britons only.

AnGaelach

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Huh?

The logical conclusion of these arguments is also anti Irish. We're talking about Xenophobia which wants a British Britain for Britons only.

They've tried very hard to make us British over the last couple centuries, including a handful of attempts at genocide.

I'm being facetious, you know.

Harvey Normal

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

They would probably have to abandon the European Convention on human rights and leave the council of europe to do that. Not sure why Irish people think this is so brilliant. It's like stepping backwards intime to the era of no blacks, no dogs, no Irish

They intend to do all that. However we might keep the CTA.

Harvey Normal

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Huh?

The logical conclusion of these arguments is also anti Irish. We're talking about Xenophobia which wants a British Britain for Britons only.

That's the argument to slippery slope. The UK is no more discriminatory towards polish people if this hard Brexit goes through than the US is discriminatory towards polish people. To work in most sovereign counties you need a work visa if you are not a citizen. Even Canadians need that to work in the US. The EU is an anomaly.

To get a bit more realistic, the NHS, the education sector, the hospitality industry, and food production (casual fruit and vegetable picking )would all collapse without foreign labour.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/26/nhs-foreign-nationals-immigration-health-service

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/irish-teachers-in-high-demand-in-britain-1.2401955

topper75

Harvey Normal wrote: »

That's the argument to slippery slope. The UK is no more discriminatory towards polish people if this hard Brexit goes through than the US is discriminatory towards polish people. To work in most sovereign counties you need a work visa if you are not a citizen. Even Canadians need that to work in the US. The EU is an anomaly.

It certainly is, but the vision of so many younger people seems to be trapped inside the EU bubble. Hence the fear.
The remain campaign tried so hard to use that fear but came up short in their efforts.

So many think still that Brexit means no foreigners. It means choosing the foreigners, which is very different indeed.

If a foreigner picks fruit and no British person wants their job, then there is no threat to that foreigners position in Britain.

topper75

topper75 wrote: »

It certainly is, but the vision of so many younger people seems to be trapped inside the EU bubble. Hence the fear.
The remain campaign tried so hard to use that fear but came up short in their efforts.

So many think still that Brexit means no foreigners. It means choosing the foreigners, which is very different indeed.

If a foreigner picks fruit and no British person wants their job, then there is no threat to that foreigners position in Britain.

During the summer I went to a national trust property in Manchester a restored mill and apprentice house, when the mill was set up there was not enough local labour so unemployed farm labours from the south of England were encouraged to migrate to Lancashire and guess what the local paper railed against them, parts of the UK have no unemployment and parts have huge unemployment now unless as a society the uk starts forcing its citizens to move where unemployment is low there will always be a need for foreign workers.

the_syco

topper75 wrote: »

If a foreigner picks fruit and no British person wants their job, then there is no threat to that foreigners position in Britain.

Some unemployed people that I knew viewed McDonalds as beneath them, and decided to wait for their preferred job instead. I'm sure many of the unemployed in england will have similar notions.

So when the foreigner leaves due to harassment on the streets, in the shops, etc, and when no brit takes over his job, the fruit farm will close down.

topper75

Harassment of people syco, be they foreigners or otherwise, isn't facilitated by Brexit though. The laws protecting people remain in place. It's red herrings like this that collapsed the Remain campaign.

@mariaalice - yes you are right there will always be a need for non-British to come work in Britain to varying extents. Brexit is NOT a shut out. It's a control valve. All nations need one but the EU has attempted to pretend otherwise for decades. They have also tried to pretend that you can unite monetary policy without uniting fiscal policy, but that is another story for another day.

Harvey Normal

mariaalice wrote: »

To get a bit more realistic, the NHS, the education sector, the hospitality industry, and food production (casual fruit and vegetable picking )would all collapse without foreign labour.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/26/nhs-foreign-nationals-immigration-health-service

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/irish-teachers-in-high-demand-in-britain-1.2401955

They are going to give out visas. However the British - population 60M - can probably step up to the plate.

end of the road

Harvey Normal wrote: »

They are going to give out visas. However the British - population 60M - can probably step up to the plate.

so why aren't they stepping up then. companies aren't going to start hiring all british because of brexit. they aren't going to increase wages either. they will simply go somewhere else that is actually open for business.

topper75

end of the road wrote: »

companies aren't going to start hiring all british because of brexit.

Correct.

So can someone please make plain to me why there is talk of xenophobia in that context?

Whilst I'm asking questions: why have left-leaning commentators taken a view vis-a-vis Brexit:

• nation = bad
• supra-national authorities = good
• small business = good
• large corporations = bad

Strange disconnect there. Doesn't add up.

Annasopra

topper75 wrote: »

Harassment of people syco, be they foreigners or otherwise, isn't facilitated by Brexit though.

Not "facilitated" no but it did cause a cultural shift where actual harassment and hate crime increased. That is well documented

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crime-racism-immigration-eu-referendum-result-what-it-means-eurospectic-areas-a7165056.html

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/26/politicians-rise-hate-crimes-brexit-vote-un-committee

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/07/hate-surged-after-eu-referendum-police-figures-show

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/718868/Brexit-hate-crime-polish-eastern-european-police-chief-Bernard-Hogan-Howe

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/post-brexit-racism-truth-hate-8787243

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3815882/Czech-PM-tells-Theresa-act-linking-killing-Czech-businessman-Brexit-vote.html

steddyeddy

mariaalice wrote: »

To get a bit more realistic, the NHS, the education sector, the hospitality industry, and food production (casual fruit and vegetable picking )would all collapse without foreign labour.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/26/nhs-foreign-nationals-immigration-health-service

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/irish-teachers-in-high-demand-in-britain-1.2401955

And science in the UK. A lot of the top labs in Cambridge are run exclusively by non Brits.

Harvey Normal

end of the road wrote: »

so why aren't they stepping up then. companies aren't going to start hiring all british because of brexit. they aren't going to increase wages either. they will simply go somewhere else that is actually open for business.

They will do both.

Harvey Normal

steddyeddy wrote: »

And science in the UK. A lot of the top labs in Cambridge are run exclusively by non Brits.

Again visas. I mean how does Silicon Valley survive? The US doesn't have open borders, not legally anyhow.

That said the UK should make more of its hugely talented university sector and try and keep whatever businesses that are incubated there in the country.

twinytwo

wes wrote: »

I hope we don't. I think we should treat any UK citizens who live, work and study in the EU with respect.

Now, I understand that we will of course have to reciprocate any immigration stuff, but we shouldn't adopt any of nuttier stuff that the UK are now embracing.

Its very easy for us to take this stance though.... we arnt connected to mainland europe. Its not easy for illegal migrants etc to get to Ireland... if it was you can rest assured we would be inundated... then everyone would have a different tune.

Yes we need foreign workers to a point, but we should be in a position to choose who we want to allow into our country.

the_syco

topper75 wrote: »

Harassment of people syco, be they foreigners or otherwise, isn't facilitated by Brexit though. The laws protecting people remain in place. It's red herrings like this that collapsed the Remain campaign.

Although the laws remain in place, there has been a dramatic rise in violence against people who appear to be foreign.

And the documenting of foreigners by the government will only bolster the thugs view that their actions are in some way supporting their government.

Fratton Fred

the_syco wrote: »

Although the laws remain in place, there has been a dramatic rise in violence against people who appear to be foreign.

And the documenting of foreigners by the government will only bolster the thugs view that their actions are in some way supporting their government.

Documenting of foreign workers already takes place, through the National Insurance number you need to legally work in the UK.

I believe what Amber Rudd was talking about was naming companies who employ mainly foreign workers.

I can't see it actually happening though, it is a bizarre thing to do.

the_syco

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I believe what Amber Rudd was talking about was naming companies who employ mainly foreign workers.

I can't see it actually happening though, it is a bizarre thing to do.

I'll rephrase it; on the tail of countless attacks on foreigners, the home secretary announces that they're going to takes names of people from other countries.

jackofalltrades

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Not "facilitated" no but it did cause a cultural shift where actual harassment and hate crime increased. That is well documented

I don't think a cultural shift occurred.
I'd say a tiny minority of knuckle-draggers felt emboldened by the result.
Working on the mistaken belief that everyone else voted for the same bigoted reason as them.
Remain supporters labelling anyone who voted for Brexit a racist, xenophobe or bigot didn't help the situation either.

Annasopra

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I don't think a cultural shift occurred.
I'd say a tiny minority of knuckle-draggers felt emboldened by the result.
Working on the mistaken belief that everyone else voted for the same bigoted reason as them.
Remain supporters labelling anyone who voted for Brexit a racist, xenophobe or bigot didn't help the situation either.

Yes but the reality is racism and xenophobia is now more acceptable in the UK and hate crime is increasing against migrants.

Fratton Fred

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes but the reality is racism and xenophobia is now more acceptable in the UK and hate crime is increasing against migrants.

mentality amongst who? Hate crime and xenophobia are never acceptable.

jackofalltrades

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes but the reality is racism and xenophobia is now more acceptable in the UK and hate crime is increasing against migrants.

Based on what?
Is there an opinion poll that shows racism is more acceptable to people living there?

Harvey Normal

the_syco wrote: »

I'll rephrase it; on the tail of countless attacks on foreigners, the home secretary announces that they're going to takes names of people from other countries.

The hysteria about that was amazing. I had to laugh at the virtue signallers who tweeted their disgust not only at the name and shaming of the companies but at the reversal where the government was going to not publish - but still collect - the names. Of course they do that already. You can't work in the UK without an NI number. You have to show a passport even if you are a citizen.

Lemming

Fratton Fred wrote: »

mentality amongst who? Hate crime and xenophobia are never acceptable.

Clearly there has been an increase somewhere; there has been a notable recorded increase in numbers of people expressing hateful views in public, defacing property of foreigners, along with the assault and killing of foreigners.

The reported statistics would suggest otherwise to your assertions that all is well and dandy, the sun is shining, and everyone is skipping along hand in hand Fred.

Edit: some of the sh1te I've seen posted on facebook by "acquaintances" has been .... uncomfortable to say the least. Most of it was just rolling-of-eyes stupid; like the sort of sh1te that you see those clowns on EDL marches coming out with whilst being unable to string two words together; with innuendo a-plenty about johnny foreigner. At the extreme end of what I've seen is a couple of t@wtbadgers joking about how wouldn't it have been great if the British army had just been allowed to "red-card" [nationalist] civvies in Northern Ireland.

Lemming

Harvey Normal wrote: »

The hysteria about that was amazing. I had to laugh at the virtue signallers who tweeted their disgust not only at the name and shaming of the companies but at the reversal where the government was going to not publish - but still collect - the names. Of course they do that already. You can't work in the UK without an NI number. You have to show a passport even if you are a citizen.

So why the need to get a list of foreigners from companies since - as you have rightly assered - they can easily get that information courtesy of our NI Numbers? This wasn't some gossip column in a red-top newspaper; this was the home secretary standing in front of a party conference that said this ...

Fratton Fred

Lemming wrote: »

Clearly there has been an increase somewhere; there has been a notable recorded increase in numbers of people expressing hateful views in public, defacing property of foreigners, along with the assault and killing of foreigners.

The reported statistics would suggest otherwise to your assertions that all is well and dandy, the sun is shining, and everyone is skipping along hand in hand Fred.

Jesus, the UK has obviously turned in to 1938 Berlin over night.

Are the police and army involved in these killings and assaults, or is it just government controlled death squads?

Look, no one said everything is fine and dandy. Reported hate crime has gone up and there's probably several reasons for this. It isn't acceptable though and never will be. For every person throwing abuse, there will be ten people standing up to the bigots, as has always happened. The police will investigate these crimes and the perpetrators charged.

Fratton Fred

Lemming wrote: »

So why the need to get a list of foreigners from companies since - as you have rightly assered - they can easily get that information courtesy of our NI Numbers? This wasn't some gossip column in a red-top newspaper; this was the home secretary standing in front of a party conference that said this ...

Look, I think this is a bat**** crazy idea and it will never see the light of day, but I can kind of see her point.

Let me give you a local scenario.

In South Dublin, we had a coach company set up an airport service without a licence, although the way they were doing it kind of made it not strictly illegal.

When the route licence was awarded to aircoach, the owner and his supporter tried to kick up xenophobic outrage by claiming a local Irish company had lost out to a British multi national and we should all support Irish business blah blah blah.

Now that's fair enough, I believe in supporting local and small business. However, the local coach company only employed Polish drivers and staff, whereas the nasty multinational mainly employs Irish staff.

So, which company is better for the local community, the multinational paying local people decent wages, or the Irish company paying low wages to eastern Europeans?

Harvey Normal

Lemming wrote: »

So why the need to get a list of foreigners from companies since - as you have rightly assered - they can easily get that information courtesy of our NI Numbers? This wasn't some gossip column in a red-top newspaper; this was the home secretary standing in front of a party conference that said this ...

They already get that. The only innovation was to name and shame. However even on dropping that there was still some hysteria.

Lemming

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Look, I think this is a bat**** crazy idea and it will never see the light of day, but I can kind of see her point.

Harvey Normal wrote: »

They already get that. The only innovation was to name and shame. However even on dropping that there was still some hysteria.

Had this been some random back-bench MP or a UKIPer trying to make a name for themselves it would have been rightly ignored as the ranting of a racist bigot. But can neither of you see a problem when one of THE most important positions in the UK cabinet stands up and says they want to "name & shame" companies for employing foreigners? On top of the unintended-but-lamentably-obvious-it-was-coming succor that the Brexit vote has given to those with racist opinions, how do you think Amber Rudd's contribution might be received?

As for your scenario Fred, unless said company is actively discriminating against people because of their nationality when hiring and they are being paid at or above minimum wage, then it's not illegal. If said employees can get better pay for the same work elsewhere, they'll not be long in staying as the market will correct the employers mistaken belief in saving a few pennies. Trying to make it so means you run the gauntlet of unintended consequences; namely scape-goating foreigners who have done nothing but come to Ireland legally seeking work.

Fratton Fred

Lemming wrote: »

As for your scenario Fred, unless said company is actively discriminating against people because of their nationality when hiring and they are being paid at or above minimum wage, then it's not illegal. If said employees can get better pay for the same work elsewhere, they'll not be long in staying as the market will correct the employers mistaken belief in saving a few pennies. Trying to make it so means you run the gauntlet of unintended consequences; namely scape-goating foreigners who have done nothing but come to Ireland legally seeking work.

it isn't illegal, no. is it moral though that a company can try and pull the nationalist angle, whilst not practicing hat it preaches?

if a company is actively pursuing the cheaper foreign option when recruiting staff, why shouldn't consumers when buying products?

Lemming

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it isn't illegal, no. is it moral though that a company can try and pull the nationalist angle, whilst not practicing hat it preaches?

if a company is actively pursuing the cheaper foreign option when recruiting staff, why shouldn't consumers when buying products?

You seem to be confusing PR campaigns with morality. Who decides what's moral? Amber Rudd? The Archbishop of Canterbury? An Imam? Rupert Murdoch?

Fratton Fred

Lemming wrote: »

You seem to be confusing PR campaigns with morality. Who decides what's moral? Amber Rudd? The Archbishop of Canterbury? An Imam? Rupert Murdoch?

morality, dishonesty, whatever. if a company is claiming that "This Product is Made in Britain" shouldn't they also have to include "By skilled Romanians earning extremely low wages because their English isn't very good and they can't get a job anywhere else".

Alternatively, if IT companies in Dublin are bringing bus loads of Indians over because the knowledge they require isn't available in Ireland, surely the government needs to be aware of this so that they can arrange for the correct skills to be taught to the unemployed?

it is a very thin line I believe and publicly announcing schemes like this are crazy, but surely a government has responsibility to its own citizens first?

Lt Dan

Geuze wrote: »

How then can we explain Turkish barbers in many Irish towns?

How are so many non-EU workers getting into the country?

Given that there are 316,000 people on the Live Register, why are we importing non-EU workers?

I support severe restrictions on non-EU workers.

Got in via Marriage to an Irish National or a National from another EU State?

No joke guys, but they are very quick to move in on a lot of auld biddies from Ireland who go over to Turkey to find sun, sand and a man. While many cases the marriage breaks down, some become legit.

Parent of an Irish Citizen?

Lt Dan

Fratton Fred wrote: »

morality, dishonesty, whatever. if a company is claiming that "This Product is Made in Britain" shouldn't they also have to include "By skilled Romanians earning extremely low wages because their English isn't very good and they can't get a job anywhere else".

Alternatively, if IT companies in Dublin are bringing bus loads of Indians over because the knowledge they require isn't available in Ireland, surely the government needs to be aware of this so that they can arrange for the correct skills to be taught to the unemployed?

it is a very thin line I believe and publicly announcing schemes like this are crazy, but surely a government has responsibility to its own citizens first?

Publicly announcing it, is stupid. They could easily have applied the policy without much attention drawn to it.

The reason for the announcement of a proposal, (it is not even definitely happening) was to give their supporters something to hear.

Lemming

Fratton Fred wrote: »

morality, dishonesty, whatever. if a company is claiming that "This Product is Made in Britain" shouldn't they also have to include "By skilled Romanians earning extremely low wages because their English isn't very good and they can't get a job anywhere else".

Alternatively, if IT companies in Dublin are bringing bus loads of Indians over because the knowledge they require isn't available in Ireland, surely the government needs to be aware of this so that they can arrange for the correct skills to be taught to the unemployed?

it is a very thin line I believe and publicly announcing schemes like this are crazy, but surely a government has responsibility to its own citizens first?

But industries ARE asked what skill-sets they're needing or think they'll need Fred. Everything else you've just written is so much xenophobic nonsense. At no point has "made in <insert-country>" ever been intended to be taken as meaning "made in <insert-country> by <insert-country-nationality>". That's up there with changes of "Keep Britain for the British", or "Ireland for the Irish". It's racial bigotry trying to dress itself up as socially acceptable.

In any case, does "Made in wherever" account for component parts/ingredients/services required sourced from outside the country?

Fratton Fred

Lemming wrote: »

But industries ARE asked what skill-sets they're needing or think they'll need Fred. Everything else you've just written is so much xenophobic nonsense. At no point has "made in <insert-country>" ever been intended to be taken as meaning "made in <insert-country> by <insert-country-nationality>". That's up there with changes of "Keep Britain for the British", or "Ireland for the Irish". It's racial bigotry trying to dress itself up as socially acceptable.

is it not implied? http://www.guaranteedirish.ie/consumers.htm

The Guaranteed Irish program was established by the Irish Goods Council in 1975. Since then, this symbol has become one of the most recognized brands in the country appearing on everything from popcorn to bags of sugar and even t-shirts!

In 1982 the European Court ruled against the operation of the scheme by a state funded agency. To continue with this valuable service to industry and the community, in 1984 Guaranteed Irish Limited was formed as an independent non-profit company. To this day Guaranteed Irish continues to promote the ethos of the original program.

Recent research indicated that if every household increased their spend on Guaranteed Irish brands by €4 per week this would create an additional 6,000 jobs*.

By buying goods and services displaying the Guaranteed Irish symbol you are helping to keep jobs in Ireland. Now that makes sense, doesn't it?

Lemming wrote: »

In any case, does "Made in wherever" account for component parts/ingredients/services required sourced from outside the country?

I think there is a distinction between "Made In" and "Produced In", but I'm not sure

Lemming

Fratton Fred wrote: »

is it not implied? http://www.guaranteedirish.ie/consumers.htm

No it does not. Nowhere does it imply or otherwise infer innuendo that 'Guaruanteed Irish' means anything other than the end-product was manufactured/sourced/whatever in Ireland, encouraging employment in Ireland. Even as a small child I understood that. Even when noise was made about the whole thing in primary school when we as a class were introduced to the branding, it was never sold as anything other than jobs in Ireland, not "jobs in Ireland for Irish people and nobody else".

You're just trying to read racial bigotry into it.

Harvey Normal

Lemming wrote: »

But industries ARE asked what skill-sets they're needing or think they'll need Fred. Everything else you've just written is so much xenophobic nonsense. At no point has "made in <insert-country>" ever been intended to be taken as meaning "made in <insert-country> by <insert-country-nationality>". That's up there with changes of "Keep Britain for the British", or "Ireland for the Irish". It's racial bigotry trying to dress itself up as socially acceptable.

In any case, does "Made in wherever" account for component parts/ingredients/services required sourced from outside the country?

But the whole point of "made in Britain" or "guaranteed Irish" campaigns is patriotism. If the consumers are expected to privilege British products maybe they should expect British companies to privilege British workers.

Harvey Normal

Lemming wrote: »

No it does not. Nowhere does it imply or otherwise infer innuendo that 'Guaruanteed Irish' means anything other than the end-product was manufactured/sourced/whatever in Ireland, encouraging employment in Ireland. Even as a small child I understood that. Even when noise was made about the whole thing in primary school when we as a class were introduced to the branding, it was never sold as anything other than jobs in Ireland, not "jobs in Ireland for Irish people and nobody else".

You're just trying to read racial bigotry into it.

At the time guaranteed irish definitely meant made by Irish people.

Lemming

Harvey Normal wrote: »

At the time guaranteed irish definitely meant made by Irish people.

Nope; never once heard it - even as a child in the 1980s - described as Irish jobs for Irish people. Then again it should also be pointed out that given that there were feck all foreign folk here back then anyway, there wasn't a need to differentiate.

There's a world of difference between supporting your local economy (call it patriotism/vested interest/whatever) and saying it's jobs for a specific nationality.

Harvey Normal

Lemming wrote: »

Nope; never once heard it - even as a child in the 1980s - described as Irish jobs for Irish people. Then again it should also be pointed out that given that there were feck all foreign folk here back then anyway, there wasn't a need to differentiate.

That's what I meant. That's what I said.

There's a world of difference between supporting your local economy (call it patriotism/vested interest/whatever) and saying it's jobs for a specific nationality.

So you want no borders at all then? Because discriminating against people based on nationality is what sovereign nations do.