land becomes available, should I?

Bass Reeves

kowtow wrote: »

I've heard of similar arrangements. Always assumed the entitlement value was paid as a lease fee and the entitlement taken on by the tenant?

Do people seriously attempt any other way? Surely it would be easy to pick up at inspections etc. ?

In most of these cases the owner is farming to a minor extent to draw ANC payments so will have minimum stock levels maybe 6-10 bullocks on 50 acres. He may make a few bales of hay or silage. Sometime the leasee wants it mainly for silage and uses the after grass as well. However I have seen situations where lad taking the land had cattle on it all year long. They take tem off for the herd tests and a mad rush if an inspection is announced. Few part time farmer could risk it.

kowtow

Bass Reeves wrote: »

In most of these cases the owner is farming to a minor extent to draw ANC payments so will have minimum stock levels maybe 6-10 bullocks on 50 acres. He may make a few bales of hay or silage. Sometime the leasee wants it mainly for silage and uses the after grass as well. However I have seen situations where lad taking the land had cattle on it all year long. They take tem off for the herd tests and a mad rush if an inspection is announced. Few part time farmer could risk it.

What happens for nitrates? The 6-10 bullock guy is importing 50 cows worth of slurry to make and sell two dozen bales ??? !

Not a difficult thing to identify from a database, one would imagine.

Bass Reeves

kowtow wrote: »

What happens for nitrates? The 6-10 bullock guy is importing 50 cows worth of slurry to make and sell two dozen bales ??? !

Not a difficult thing to identify from a database, one would imagine.

Lots of lads with low stocking numbers import a large amount of slurry, know of one or two that went over the limit.

kerry cow

Total agree with tractorporn, we as the working man need to stop taking land the way we do .
Having to farm and give back 100% of the value to the land owner is mad .It was there to support the producer .
I see recently the list , county by county of the biggest payments . I see from people I know on the list drawing in many cases 150k and more for corn and bullock they no longer farm .It can't be right to fork out money to these people when the guy who is trying to work new land get a dig in the nots.

Keepgrowing

bogman_bass wrote: »

Why would anybody take land that far from the home farm?

30k in my case

Waffletraktor

Keepgrowing wrote: »

30k in my case

Do either of you travel to it daily or is it farmed under your umbrella so to speak?

pedigree 6

Keepgrowing wrote: »

30k in my case

There's a poster who doesn't need a sfp.;)

Edit: I just copped that you meant 30km not 30k Euro.
Or maybe not. Still confused.

J.O. Farmer

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Do either of you travel to it daily or is it farmed under your umbrella so to speak?

It must be a lovely part of the country with that big of an umbrella 😜.

Waffletraktor

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

It must be a lovely part of the country with that big of an umbrella 😜.

Plenty do the contract farming over here on the finance never-never, just need to take your bank man for a days blasting tame partridge or pheasant

Mooooo

Had land rented for heifers and quota that was 30 km away but with traffic would take 3/4 of an hour to get there. Back in the day dad bought ground in Laois for quota

The part time boy

kowtow wrote: »

Bass Reeves wrote: »

In most of these cases the owner is farming to a minor extent to draw ANC payments so will have minimum stock levels maybe 6-10 bullocks on 50 acres. He may make a few bales of hay or silage. Sometime the leasee wants it mainly for silage and uses the after grass as well. However I have seen situations where lad taking the land had cattle on it all year long. They take tem off for the herd tests and a mad rush if an inspection is announced. Few part time farmer could risk it.

What happens for nitrates? The 6-10 bullock guy is importing 50 cows worth of slurry to make and sell two dozen bales ??? !

Not a difficult thing to identify from a database, one would imagine.

I don't understand this. Why would be import the slurry on paper ?

And how does the "database " know how many bailes his making/ selling ?

Bass Reeves

The part time boy wrote: »

I don't understand this. Why would be import the slurry on paper ?

And how does the "database " know how many bailes his making/ selling ?

For the farmer taking the land but not putting it in his area aid form it causes a nitrates issue and he has to either export slurry or get a derogation. Easiest way around this is for owner to import slurry from unofficial renter. Now renter may be using the slurry to grow silage on owners land. Often rent goes down as silage.

However department is becoming more active in look at import/export of slurry. A few lads had long distance hauls. Some importing of slurry is on paper only.

kowtow

Bass Reeves wrote: »

For the farmer taking the land but not putting it in his area aid form it causes a nitrates issue and he has to either export slurry or get a derogation. Easiest way around this is for owner to import slurry from unofficial renter. Now renter may be using the slurry to grow silage on owners land. Often rent goes down as silage.

However department is becoming more active in look at import/export of slurry. A few lads had long distance hauls. Some importing of slurry is on paper only.

Exactly. And if - as I think the suggestion is - there is a long term lease involved with the associated tax relief from the landlord then there is no way at all - in my mind - the landlord can retain and claim on the entitlements. He is free to lease them to the renter, for whatever price they can agree, which might be the whole value on an annual basis but anything else to my mind amounts to a very easily discover-able fraud.

If it is a conacre situation where the renter takes land and exports slurry back to it then I don't see a problem, the renter is in effect buying annual crops from the landlord which he harvests himself whether by grazing or as silage. I am not sure where that fits in with the BPS arrangements, but from a logistical point of view he would not have the maps.

The part time boy

Ya I agree anyone leasing lands should not be claiming bps . I am claiming bps and selling two cuts of sillage . I graze it . I not let any cattle in the place if I am claiming on it . I don't think I want to import any slurry either

Username John

The part time boy wrote: »

Ya I agree anyone leasing lands should not be claiming bps . I am claiming bps and selling two cuts of sillage . I graze it . I not let any cattle in the place if I am claiming on it . I don't think I want to import any slurry either

No offence Part Time - but what's the difference between selling two cuts of silage and letting a lad graze the place from 1st March to middle August?

It's just selling / removing grass by another method...

The part time boy

The difference is two fold.

First one I may be wrong on this . But as I am claiming off the land I am not bringing cattle into the land that's not in my herd number as that would clearly brake a rule you could easily get caught . What I am doing is selling a produce of the land . I can't see any rule I am braking .

The 2nd difference is a mind set that I will accept may be silly . But as I only sell 2 cuts and still graze the after grass in the latter part of the year I can kid my self that I am still farming all my land when i check cattle in the sillage fields . When I pulled the plug on cows I did not want to long term lease or even con acre

The long term plan would be to find something that i will able to farm the full farm my self part time.

Username John

The part time boy wrote: »

The difference is two fold.

First one I may be wrong on this . But as I am claiming off the land I am not bringing cattle into the land that's not in my herd number as that would clearly brake a rule you could easily get caught . What I am doing is selling a produce of the land . I can't see any rule I am braking .

The 2nd difference is a mind set that I will accept may be silly . But as I only sell 2 cuts and still graze the after grass in the latter part of the year I can kid my self that I am still farming all my land when i check cattle in the sillage fields . When I pulled the plug on cows I did not want to long term lease or even con acre

The long term plan would be to find something that i will able to farm the full farm my self part time.

I wouldn't be too well up on the herd number side of things...

I didn't think taking animals in for grazing meant that you lost your SFP?
What about the guys that do B&B for the winter - from a pure 'submitting maps' would this not be the same thing - albeit the transfer is done at a different time of year?

On the second point, I get you

ganmo

Username John wrote: »

No offence Part Time - but what's the difference between selling two cuts of silage and letting a lad graze the place from 1st March to middle August?

It's just selling / removing grass by another method...

In fairness part time is managing it for the full year, whoever buys the silage is only in the field for a few days

The part time boy

You not be allowed have cattle on your land if there not in your herd number . Either full tranfer or on a temporary b and b. To be honest this something that I not be Intrested in .

massey265

So if I were to just take on the ten acres for silage and grazing on same for the rest off the year. What would be a fair rent for the year?

Bullocks

massey265 wrote: »

So if I were to just take on the ten acres for silage and grazing on same for the rest off the year. What would be a fair rent for the year?

£30 an acre would be enough

Bass Reeves

massey265 wrote: »

So if I were to just take on the ten acres for silage and grazing on same for the rest off the year. What would be a fair rent for the year?

As he has it in GLAS meadow I be giving him nothing as it will be only straw quality unless it was grazed until Mid April

MayoAreMagic

Massey, you say land has become available.. What part of it has become available though? You basically have to do his work for 5 years and not put anything of your own on it, or get paid for it, and then pay for that privilege. If he had to get someone else to do that he would generally have to pay them rather than the other way around.

What are you gaining?

It seems from reading the posts here anyway, this offer of 'first refusal' that you were promised is being manipulated into a pretty poor deal for you that nobody else would take, and then if you refuse well you had your first refusal.

The reality is you got first refusal on it for when it is free, not when he has it tied into a restrictive scheme for the next 5 years that is earning for someone else. That isn't first refusal, that is a farm labourer.

Maybe just say it doesn't really make sense to do it from your perspective, but that you are willing to help him out on his glas measures until it is out of the scheme and then ye can take another look at it.

The part time boy

While not a good deal I don't get don't touch it talk.

As far as I reading the only glas work your doing for the landlord is not cutting sillage before 1st July .

I know someone buying sillage from this kind of field and paying 80 euro . Now I think this is way too dear. Quality won't be total sh**e but won't be good either .

As for grazing after sillage you need to be car full there. You really need to put the your cattle in his herd number . Other wise it's a big risk .

As for what it worth is really up to you to see how much your willing to pay.

Some people here would not take it if they got paid . But if someone who short of grass might pay 50 euro

Bass Reeves

The part time boy wrote: »

But if someone who short of grass might pay 50 euro

50 euro/acre is 500 euro at present fertlizer prices about a pallet of urea or 1.5 T of 18-6-12 or nearly 2T of CAN. That would generally grow a sh!t load of grass. Why join the silly brigade hauling cattle 10 miles each way and silage. I am stocked at virtually 170kg/HA have 3-4 acres of marsh out of 68 acres and I am taking out surplas paddocks for bales. Fertlizer costs me less than 50 acre accross the whole farm.

massey265

I get what your all saying there is more cons to pros but the way I am I don't have much silage ground off my own and I would like to increase stock in near future these fields would be very useful, I know it's just break even money with the rent he looking for which is not helping win me over, and the case I can't stock cattle on it for five year term off glas doesn't help either.

Who2

massey265 wrote: »

I get what your all saying there is more cons to pros but the way I am I don't have much silage ground off my own and I would like to increase stock in near future these fields would be very useful, I know it's just break even money with the rent he looking for which is not helping win me over, and the case I can't stock cattle on it for five year term off glas doesn't help either.

You need to be running what you have at 100% before you even consider taking ground with no subs , and even then it rarely makes sense. A twenty mile round trip for a ten acre plot is complete madness. Drawing bales of July grass and then throwing a few cattle on it for a couple of weeks will end up eating any small bit of profit by the trip over and back on it's own.

Bullocks

massey265 wrote: »

I get what your all saying there is more cons to pros but the way I am I don't have much silage ground off my own and I would like to increase stock in near future these fields would be very useful, I know it's just break even money with the rent he looking for which is not helping win me over, and the case I can't stock cattle on it for five year term off glas doesn't help either.

I wouldnt bother renting land for silage , keeep your eyes open around now and you will find plenty of good quality bales for sale that will be landed in the yard cheaper than the money and hassle of renting

Hard Knocks

Bullocks wrote: »

I wouldnt bother renting land for silage , keeep your eyes open around now and you will find plenty of good quality bales for sale that will be landed in the yard cheaper than the money and hassle of renting

Would wholecrop / maize / brewer grain be an option

Bass Reeves

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Would wholecrop / maize / brewer grain be an option

Not in mayo and not for suckler cows. Unless we get a very early winter bales silae will be sub 20/bale delivered to the yard again.