Is Sagan's DQ good for Cycling?

rtmie

That would be the concern. They have as a side effect made policy on the fly, which may have as yet unconsidered consequences.

Kaisr Sose

It's ASO saying the tour is better/more than one or a particular star rider.

greenspurs

And why hit Sagan with tough penalty originally , straight after the Stage end, but then come out 80/90 mins later and then decide he must be thrown out of the race !?

What happened in the mean time ??

Borderfox

greenspurs wrote: »

And why hit Sagan with tough penalty originally , straight after the Stage end, but then come out 80/90 mins later and then decide he must be thrown out of the race !?

What happened in the mean time ??

Oli Cookson rang his Da :pac:

Lusk_Doyle

Beasty wrote: »

Would you, or any other poster around here, "appreciate" someone shoving their elbow in your face during a club league race resulting in you being off work for 3 months?

He was DQ'd quite rightly in my view for that behaviour. You are perfectly entitled to an alternative view, but the example Sagan set was atrocious in mine.

I think that you need to watch it again and in slow motion. It's very clear that Cav connected with Sagan from behind and his bike bars were coming up inside of Sagan's arm. Sagan clearly had to adjust himself to stay upright and that included moving his arm up and away (an elbow if you will) and also shifting his body weight on the saddle. He did not cause Cav to crash. Cav caused Cav to crash. I can't see how you think otherwise from the video evidence available.

mcgratheoin

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

I think that you need to watch it again and in slow motion. It's very clear that Cav connected with Sagan from behind and his bike bars were coming up inside of Sagan's arm. Sagan clearly had to adjust himself to stay upright and that included moving his arm up and away (an elbow if you will) and also shifting his body weight on the saddle. He did not cause Cav to crash. Cav caused Cav to crash. I can't see how you think otherwise from the video evidence available.

Ah here, I think that's a bit harsh.

Have a look at the situation from head on here and it looks like a fairly normal sprint - there's a clear gap on Sagan's right for Cav to follow Demare's wheel and 9 times out of 10 you'd see the sprint play out as usual, maybe with Cav boxed in if Demare doesn't swing across like a madman.

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From overhead it's pretty much the same picture - there's a definite gap available for Cav to follow Demare's wheel up the side of Sagan, nothing unusual to see here - Cav's head is level with Sagan's hips, so he's not coming from way back.

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The overhead action disappears under a tree then but Sagan definitely closes the gap on Cav initially, leaving Cav nowhere to go but up under his elbow. Sagan feels the contact and sticks out his elbow to stay upright, taking Cav out (he was probably going down anyway at this stage, but I would argue the elbow made the crash worse)

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From the front you can see that Sagan has closed the door, and Cav has nowhere to go but into Sagan and hence down.

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I can't see how anyone could lay this on Cav - he went for an open gap and was well into it when Sagan closed the door. If you close the door on someone while they're halfway through, it's going to hurt, Sagan should know that and saying Cav rode into him is a bit disingenous.
In Sagan's defence, I suspect he was put off by Demare's lunatic swerve. Given that he probably causes Sagan to shift his line and almost cleans out Bouhanni, I'd say Demare is culprit number one for poor sprinting in this finish, with Sagan number 2.

Weepsie

The gap isn't there. If Cavendish is looking, he'll see it's closing rapidly. If you take a still then it looks as though it is, but all of the sprinters are veering to the side and there is only time and room enough for Demare.

Sagan is at least half a bike length if not more ahead of him the entire time

Cavendish put himself in a dangerous situation, in he made the first contact too and his arm is practically in Sagan's armpit. There was never enough of a gap there for 2 riders to get through.

His comments yesterday say it all about him. His hip check on Tom Veelers years ago was "just racing" according to him and he went to great lengths at the time to justify it all.

mcgratheoin

Weepsie wrote: »

The gap isn't there. If Cavendish is looking, he'll see it's closing rapidly. If you take a still then it looks as though it is, but all of the sprinters are veering to the side and there is only time and room enough for Demare.

Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree. I think Cav can legitimately expect that he can follow Demare up the right without the door being slammed shut while you're still in it.
As an aside, they only veer to the right as a result of Greipel trying to take Kristoff's wheel and barging Bouhanni over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXwZczGqWls

I think the discussion shows that it's far from a black & white situation - interesting comment from Cav as well that he's paying for the attitude he had when he was younger. The opinion around the peleton seems to be that it was a harsh decision when you look at what has gone unsanctioned before.

CramCycle

He done the same as Sagan last year and basically told all the complainers to grow up, this is racing.

Demare moved across Sagan, Sagan took his wheel and Cavendish tried to ram through. Sagan basically gets dragged to the side trying to balance after Cavendish hit him.
The first time I seen it at full speed, it looked bad for Sagan, but looking at it in slow motion from various angles. It could not be clearer there was no intention from Sagan. He took Demares wheel Cavendish isn't even on his radar at this point.

It looks bad but it was no more dangerous than alot of other things that went on in that finish. Cavendish leaned in like he often does to shove Sagan off. He mistimed it this time and paid the price for his poor behaviour.

Weepsie

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree. I think Cav can legitimately expect that he can follow Demare up the right without the door being slammed shut while you're still in it.
As an aside, they only veer to the right as a result of Greipel trying to take Kristoff's wheel and barging Bouhanni over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXwZczGqWls

I think the discussion shows that it's far from a black & white situation - interesting comment from Cav as well that he's paying for the attitude he had when he was younger. The opinion around the peleton seems to be that it was a harsh decision when you look at what has gone unsanctioned before.

He still has that attitude and always had that attitude. He had a strop when he wasn't picked for a certain event in Rio. He had a strop when he hip checked Tom Veelers off his bike. He has strops every so often when things don't go his way, but when the tables are turned "it's racing" etc. He's a great athlete but a horrible sportsperson.

He had a strop on TV too after the Olympics on some cookery show. It's "honest", it's "refreshing" apparently. It's not, it's whinging.

The door was at most slightly ajar.

ford2600

Weepsie wrote: »

He still has that attitude and always had that attitude.

He's won more TDF stages than anyone else, you don't get there without attitude; being totally single minded, selfish etc etc. It's about winning not a nice guy competition.

As for the technical nuances of elite level sprinting, I'd be leaving that to the guys who know what they are talking about; Kelly and his ilk


As for Sagan's disqualification and its effect on cycling; I went for a spin last night, about the same as normal; still pretty sh1t but I really enjoyed it

rtmie

To move it on from the specific incident where people more knowledgeable than me seem divided, I'd be most concerned with the "hard cases make bad law" adage.
If Sagan went clearly beyond what is 'normal' for sprints there wouldn't be so much debate about the incident. So if we assume there is as of now no clear agreement on what constitutes normal in racing incident Vs demote/deduct Vs DQ, then that needs to be addressed first. Then there might be a chance of consistent interpretation - although there is so much going on in sprints I doubt it is possible to characterise.

Given that e.g. Bouhani did not get DQ for headbutting in some race last year (Dauphines?) and Cav did not get DQ for taking out the guy a couple of years ago then you have to ask on what basis penalties escalate. Seriousness of intent, seriousness of outcome, whatever.

BTW given speed with which some teams / riders set about Sagan is there some personal animus towards him? Are other riders fed up of the attention he gets, his showboating etc.

07Lapierre

Well If he's re-instated...#anothercanofworms

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/peter-sagan-still-reinstated-tour-de-france/

Lusk_Doyle

I fell that this needs a poll.

Pa8301

I don't see how they could possibly reinstate him. I think if the CAS rules in his favour his team will probably just seek monetary compensation. That's probably their goal in appealing.

greenspurs

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

I fell that this needs a poll.

Freudian slip ....... ?

" I 'FELL' .......... " same as Cav fell?

Lusk_Doyle

greenspurs wrote: »

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

I fell that this needs a poll.

Freudian slip ....... ?

" I 'FELL' .......... " same as Cav fell?

No. I clearly can't spall.

ThisRegard

It's certainly good for cycling in terms of the fashion anyway.

sin_26

What kind of penalty Froome faced after running without a bike or for punching spectator in the face? That sprint doesn`t looked different than many previous ones and i bet it won`t look different than coming ones. Who else will be Dq`d for lines changes? UCI decision is somewhat sad.

Weepsie

sin_26 wrote: »

What kind of penalty Froome faced after running without a bike or for punching spectator in the face? That sprint doesn`t looked different than many previous ones and i bet it won`t look different than coming ones. Who else will be Dq`d for lines changes? UCI decision is somewhat sad.

Demare changed his line today on what looked like more than 1 occasion. At least 1 rider put his hand up to signal a complaint and on the penultimate bend he looks to be leaning into another rider?

It's the inconsistency really

straighttohell

:mad:Sagans DQ is diabolical, even in real time when I was watching it, when Cav made a go for the gap I thought no frigging way is he going to get through there, and as for the elbow, it had nothing to do with it! Look at the video, it's not an illusion...Opinions are one thing, saying something occoured when it didnt is another. Sagan is no saint but he's been truly shafted