Australia Trials Cashless Welfare Card

Wheeliebin30

TresGats wrote: »

I wouldn't support it anyway. It has a "we know better" feel to it.
There is nothing wrong with being unemployed in a country with high levels of unemployment. It's like musical chairs, there are not jobs for everyone, although I believe there is more jobs than there were. As long as you are looking for work, you should not be penalised in any way.
Is this brought in for disabled people & pensioners also?

Why do we need to import half a million foreign workers to fill jobs if there isn't enough jobs for everyone?

Sweetemotion

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Why do we need to import half a million foreign workers to fill jobs if there isn't enough jobs for everyone?

Are you saying that there is half a million job vacancies available?

wexandproud

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Let me get you a stepladder so you can get down from your horse safely.

The reason people have an issue with the dole is that it allows a person to go through their whole life being supported by the state and providing nothing in return. The last estimate I saw was one in seven people on the dole had never worked before. People see this as parasitic behaviour. What makes it harder to accept is that high crime anti social areas seem to have a very high proportion of these claimants. Your average Joe isn't going to see all the strings that contribute to this kind of situation and look at it in a more simple way.

The reason people don't have the same issue with pensions is that we are all entitled to it in our later years. This is why a universal income would be more palatable to most people, because it's effectively a pension for life.

your wasting your time pointing this out , in several threads over the last while people , including myself , have been accused of dole bashing and it has always been clarified with post like yours that the ''bashing '' is soley at those who make a career of sponging off the state.
sooner or later these cards will become a fact of like as society as a whole will become cashless

steddyeddy

Right let's give a bit of context to the argument. Here's a website called publicpolicy.ie. It tells you were your tax money's going. For a person making 50k they will pay ~€15,130.80 a year.

Of that money €5,007.54 goes on social programmes. Sounds like a lot right? Of that money the most goes to pensions. Approximately €1,614.76.

You're also paying significantly sums of money for free third level education and most of your income goes towards servicing the national debt.

We also know that the number of long term claimants on the dole has decreased by ~20%.

steddyeddy

wexandproud wrote: »

your wasting your time pointing this out , in several threads over the last while people , including myself , have been accused of dole bashing and it has always been clarified with post like yours that the ''bashing '' is soley at those who make a career of sponging off the state.
sooner or later these cards will become a fact of like as society as a whole will become cashless

Even if that were the case, the solutions proposed target every dole claimant.

The Dole should be kept. But it needs to be managed properly; the sad truth is that there are likely a lot of multiple generations of one family that are on social welfare. There is absolutely no need for this. What should happen is that your payments should be cut if you're unable to prove that you're actively looking for work until all that is left is enough to survive. Enough to cover your food, your rent, and that's it.

Arbitrary

It's a decent idea but I see many potential issues. What's to stop a loan shark with a payment terminal offering cash for card payments at an extortionate rate?

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

The Dole should be kept. But it needs to be managed properly; the sad truth is that there are likely a lot of multiple generations of one family that are on social welfare. There is absolutely no need for this. What should happen is that your payments should be cut if you're unable to prove that you're actively looking for work until all that is left is enough to survive. Enough to cover your food, your rent, and that's it.

what would you expect to happen if this is done?

FishOnABike

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Dole should be kept. But it needs to be managed properly; the sad truth is that there are likely a lot of multiple generations of one family that are on social welfare. There is absolutely no need for this. What should happen is that your payments should be cut if you're unable to prove that you're actively looking for work until all that is left is enough to survive. Enough to cover your food, your rent, and that's it.

That is what happens. Jobseekers Allowance claimants have their status periodicaly reviewed and have to provide evidence that they are actively seeking employment.

If they fail to respond or fail to provide evidence that they are actively seeking employment their jobseekers allowance payment can be reduced or stopped completely.

steddyeddy

FishOnABike wrote: »

That is what happens. Jobseekers Allowance claimants have their status periodicaly reviewed and have to provide evidence that they are actively seeking employment.

If they fail to respond or fail to provide evidence that they are actively seeking employment their jobseekers allowance payment can be reduced or stopped completely.

We also know that long term dole users have declined by 20%.

FishOnABike

FishOnABike wrote: »

That is what happens. Jobseekers Allowance claimants have their status periodicaly reviewed and have to provide evidence that they are actively seeking employment.

If they fail to respond or fail to provide evidence that they are actively seeking employment their jobseekers allowance payment can be reduced or stopped completely.

No it's not.

I was on social welfare for about two years. Not once during this time did I have an inspector or anything reviewed or have to prove anything. I know many other people who haven't either.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what would you expect to happen if this is done?

1) stop people from scrounging on the dole - not working for the sake of not working.
2) give them the inspiration to get off their arse and look for work.

McCrack

steddyeddy wrote: »

Good point. They're already being singled out. A lot of people on the dole feel stigma and hate every minute of it. So why would we single them out further?

The ones that feel stigmatised should instead feel gratitude we live in a country that pays nearly 200 per week when out of work.

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

No it's not.

I was on social welfare for about two years. Not once during this time did I have an inspector or anything reviewed or have to prove anything. I know many other people who haven't either.



1) stop people from scrounging on the dole - not working for the sake of not working.
2) give them the inspiration to get off their arse and look for work.

were you on benefit? When I signed on, after working 7 years, I wasn't assessed or anything like that. Once my stamps ran out I was assessed, I had to attend regular meetings with someone who would do stuff like look at my CV, the types of jobs I was applying for etc.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

1) stop people from scrounging on the dole - not working for the sake of not working.
2) give them the inspiration to get off their arse and look for work.

heres what id think might happen:

1)errr emm ok!
2)maybe they d just turn to crime!;)

Arbitrary

Arbitrary wrote: »

It's a decent idea but I see many potential issues. What's to stop a loan shark with a payment terminal offering cash for card payments at an extortionate rate?

You arrest and put the loan shark in jail, also people need to take responsibility..... if they are choosing to trade their food card for cash to buy alcohol ant an extortionate rate then that is their own fault.

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

were you on benefit? When I signed on, after working 7 years, I wasn't assessed or anything like that. Once my stamps ran out I was assessed, I had to attend regular meetings with someone who would do stuff like look at my CV, the types of jobs I was applying for etc.

I get mixed up between them - is benefit the full amount of dole? If so, that's the one I had. At one point I had to go see someone for advice - they saw I was doing everything I could and couldn't offer me any further advice.

No further meetings were scheduled - nothing made regular. It was just a once off as far as I could tell.

I then moved somewhere else, to another Dole region, and never once was brought back in again.

ChikiChiki

Go into bookies shops mid week. Full of people who have just collected their dole. This system being implemented in Oz makes a lot of sense.

Donal55

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You arrest and put the loan shark in jail, also people need to take responsibility..... if they are choosing to trade their food card for cash to buy alcohol ant an extortionate rate then that is their own fault.

Back in the day one could exchange butter vouchers for woodbines.
And as for arresting and putting loan sharks in jail...........well, you know the answer to that one.

Wanderer78

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Go into bookies shops mid week. Full of people who have just collected their dole. This system being implemented in Oz makes a lot of sense.

have they also implemented a system or systems to address the underlying mental health or other complex issues thats actually causing their addiction problems?

Donal55

On the positive side if it was rolled out to pensioners it might reduce the queues in the post offices.

mfceiling

So the alcoholic parent who would rather spend their welfare money on drink than food for their kids is fcuked now. Where's the problem again?

Allinall

Wanderer78 wrote: »

have they also implemented a system or systems to address the underlying mental health or other complex issues thats actually causing their addiction problems?

Who mentioned addiction problems?

The ones in the bookies midweek are just gob****e wasters.

Donal55

mfceiling wrote: »

So the alcoholic parent who would rather spend their welfare money on drink than food for their kids is fcuked now. Where's the problem again?

All the more reason why it should be applied universally for child benefit etc. Its not just dole spongers that can become alcoholics.

Wheeliebin30

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Are you saying that there is half a million job vacancies available?

Jesus.

Think about it for a minute.

You're saying there isn't enough jobs for everyone yet we have to recruit half a million foreign people to fill job vacancies.

Why doesn't the 100s of thousands of Irish people on the dole here fill these jobs instead of having to look outside the country to fill them?

Captain Obvious

steddyeddy wrote: »

You answered it, but your answer an example of cognitive dissonance.

Just because you can't see the difference between to things does not make it cognitive dissonance.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Even if that were the case, the solutions proposed target every dole claimant.

But will only affect those who spend large amounts on alcohol, tobacco or drugs. The rest should not see any difference other than getting their dole on a credit card instead of at the Post Office.

Grayson

mfceiling wrote: »

So the alcoholic parent who would rather spend their welfare money on drink than food for their kids is fcuked now. Where's the problem again?

This is the simple problem to stop alcoholism and the broken homes that it causes? It was that simple all along.

mfceiling

Grayson wrote: »

This is the simple problem to stop alcoholism and the broken homes that it causes? It was that simple all along.

No its not...but it's a small step towards breaking the easy access to the money required to drink.

I've 2 alcoholic uncles....both long time unemployed. Drink like madmen for the first 3 days after they get their dole then spend 4 days in the horrors waiting to get their money again. Wouldn't do them a bit of harm to limit their payments to ensure that their families get their essentials first.

pablo128

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Yet another person who doesn't comprehend the difference between wages and welfare. This is pretty pathetic. A poor reflection on society that people can't differentiate between a handout and a wage.

On the first page of this thread you were cribbing about where your tax money was going.

But really you're using the thread to look down on people on social welfare. You seem to think its only spent on alcohol and drugs. And when social welfare recipients are old enough to get a pension they magically stop drinking and flittering the money away.

Captain Obvious

pablo128 wrote: »

On the first page of this thread you were cribbing about where your tax money was going.

But really you're using the thread to look down on people on social welfare. You seem to think its only spent on alcohol and drugs. And when social welfare recipients are old enough to get a pension they magically stop drinking and flittering the money away.

Literally none of that is true. I wasn't cribbing about where my tax money was going. I was asking why I should not be concerned about it. Nowhere did I say it was all spent on alcohol and drugs, I said this policy will only affect people who spend it on those items. Nowhere did I say people magically stop drinking when they draw a pension, I pointed out that the dole is different to both a pension and wages.

Anything else you want to make up?

pablo128

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Just because you can't see the difference between to things does not make it cognitive dissonance.



But will only affect those who spend large amounts on alcohol, tobacco or drugs. The rest should not see any difference other than getting their dole on a credit card instead of at the Post Office.

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Literally none of that is true. I wasn't cribbing about where my tax money was going. I was asking why I should not be concerned about it. Nowhere did I say it was all spent on alcohol and drugs, I said this policy will only affect people who spend it on those items. Nowhere did I say people magically stop drinking when they draw a pension, I pointed out that the dole is different to both a pension and wages.

Anything else you want to make up?

I don't have to make anything up as above.