Man challenges "private company" in his dole office

Huntergonzo

elperello wrote: »

http://www.basicincomeireland.com/

Have a read but it's really another threads work.

I'll have a read, admittedly I'm not overly familiar.

Dr Brown

Walter Bishop wrote: »

Pretty much all dole payments go straight back into the economy and keep other people in jobs and provide tax revenue back to the State, people don't seem to be clocking this in their race to have all dole lifers executed or whatever...

The exception being non nationals who send most of their money home.

Fr_Dougal

end of the road wrote: »

if there was work to be found we wouldn't have had a high unemployment rate like we did during the recession. the fact is there was little work and some of it wouldn't even cover one's travel expences. all of us who survived in work during the recession were quite lucky in relation to those who sadly didn't. some of us were lucky not to have it hard but thankfully we are knowledgable enough to know the world isn't black and white and we could lose everything quite quickly if we were unlucky enough.

We have a low unemployment rate now. People need to stop using the employment rate as an excuse.

Unemployment rate is 6.1%, 4.7% is full employment.

Dr Brown

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

We have a low unemployment rate now. People need to stop using the employment rate as an excuse.

Unemployment rate is 6.1%, 4.7% is full employment.

The governments "unemployment figures" need to be taking with a large grain of salt.

Faith+1

seamus wrote: »

What absolute horsesh1t.

Freemen of the land idiots still banging about I see.

Maybe he should just get a job instead of wasting civil servants time with his nonsense.

So every person who stands up for their rights instead of following every other gobsh*te is a Freeman? The Irish Government has broken EU law with regards to the handling of personal data. They have no right to pass on personal information to private company without your knowdledge or consent.

Secondly you don't have to sign the PPN, a case was taken against Seetec with regards to non complience. The dept of social protection confirmed that no where does it state that non complience rests solely with not signing. The reason they force people to sign is because they will not get paid otherwise.

These private companies dont give a sh*t about anyone except money, they'll force you to take any job without actually listening to the individual. They're only succeeding with this programme due to peoples fears of sanction and lack of knowledge to the law.

Huntergonzo

Walter Bishop wrote: »

You have to budget for them. If they weren't getting dole they'd be getting money by other means, possibly illegal, and probably costing the State more resources than just giving them €200 a week to keep them quiet does.

We're basically just writing off money then so useless people don't become potentially dangerous people, that's pretty bleak stuff.

Walter Bishop wrote: »

No matter what system is in place some minority will abuse it, but to see the way some go on about dole lifers you'd think they were storing all this cash up or exporting it abroad or something.

It's undeniably true that "No matter what system is in place some minority will abuse it", I agree 100% with that, it's human nature.

Walter Bishop wrote: »

Pretty much all dole payments go straight back into the economy and keep other people in jobs and provide tax revenue back to the State, people don't seem to be clocking this in their race to have all dole lifers executed or whatever...

I know the dole payment goes back into the state but plenty of them do individually cost the state literally thousands of money in other ways, social housing maintenance costs would be 1 example.

end of the road

suicide_circus wrote: »

Those who want to work will have no problem with this.

some of them won't and many others will as this isn't going to help them work.

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

We have a low unemployment rate now. People need to stop using the employment rate as an excuse.

Unemployment rate is 6.1%, 4.7% is full employment.

i never said we currently have a high unemployment rate. nobody is using the employment rate as an excuse for anything. if someone is unemployed it's for genuine reasons, being unemployable is a genuine reason.

elperello

Faith+1 wrote: »

So every person who stands up for their rights instead of following every other gobsh*te is a Freeman? The Irish Government has broken EU law with regards to the handling of personal data. They have no right to pass on personal information to private company without your knowdledge or consent.

Secondly you don't have to sign the PPN, a case was taken against Seetec with regards to non complience. The dept of social protection confirmed that no where does it state that non complience rests solely with not signing. The reason they force people to sign is because they will not get paid otherwise.

These private companies dont give a sh*t about anyone except money, they'll force you to take any job without actually listening to the individual. They're only succeeding with this programme due to peoples fears of sanction and lack of knowledge to the law.

+1
Just look up.
Turas Nua
Seetec
ATOS job review

Please try to enlighten yourselves about this Tory crap that is being imported to Ireland.
This is what the guy in Limerick was trying in his own way to stand up to.

end of the road

Huntergonzo wrote: »

We're basically just writing off money then so useless people don't become potentially dangerous people, that's pretty bleak stuff.

effectively yes . i agree it is bleak stuff, but parts of reality are bleak unfortunately.

Huntergonzo wrote: »

It's undeniably true that "No matter what system is in place some minority will abuse it", I agree 100% with that, it's human nature.

I know the dole payment goes back into the state but plenty of them do individually cost the state literally thousands of money in other ways, social housing maintenance costs would be 1 example.

that's solved by putting those who damage their social house in a shipping container. it's still accommodation but at least it has little to nothing to damage. most people however do respect their social house and don't damage it.

Walter Bishop

Huntergonzo wrote: »

We're basically just writing off money then so useless people don't become potentially dangerous people, that's pretty bleak stuff.



It's undeniably true that "No matter what system is in place some minority will abuse it", I agree 100% with that, it's human nature.



I know the dole payment goes back into the state but plenty of them do individually cost the state literally thousands of money in other ways, social housing maintenance costs would be 1 example.

Bleak stuff it may be but some amount of it is needed to help society function the best that it can.

There are always going to be people who are a drain on state resources, and these will be made up for by others who are able to contribute a surplus, but the root of these and the basic income argument is going to come down to what sort of society we want to live in - one where people who are unable, or even unwilling to work (because they will always exist
no matter what sort of incentives or punishments people want to try to cajole them to work), are helped by society and the State, or one where people are just cut adrift based on moral and financial judgements made by a bureaucracy?

Huntergonzo

end of the road wrote: »

effectively yes . i agree it is bleak stuff, but parts of reality are bleak unfortunately.

This is true

end of the road wrote: »

that's solved by putting those who damage their social house in a shipping container. it's still accommodation but at least it has little to nothing to damage. most people however do respect their social house and don't damage it.

Shipping container eh, now there's an idea

Jawgap

server down wrote: »

A basic income until you don’t need it?

No, you get a basic income while your contributing and that allows you to insure (through a nominal social insurance payment) against future unemployment, and gives you enough for a few months to help you get back into employment if you find yourself unemployed.

padd b1975

Dr Brown wrote: »

The governments "unemployment figures" need to be taking with a large grain of salt.

Numbers come from the CSO, not the government.

server down

Jawgap wrote: »

No, you get a basic income while your contributing and that allows you to insure (through a nominal social insurance payment) against future unemployment, and gives you enough for a few months to help you get back into employment if you find yourself unemployed.

That makes no sense. A universal basic income would be something everybody gets.

Sonics2k

Faith+1 wrote: »

So every person who stands up for their rights instead of following every other gobsh*te is a Freeman? The Irish Government has broken EU law with regards to the handling of personal data. They have no right to pass on personal information to private company without your knowdledge or consent.

Secondly you don't have to sign the PPN, a case was taken against Seetec with regards to non complience. The dept of social protection confirmed that no where does it state that non complience rests solely with not signing. The reason they force people to sign is because they will not get paid otherwise.

These private companies dont give a sh*t about anyone except money, they'll force you to take any job without actually listening to the individual. They're only succeeding with this programme due to peoples fears of sanction and lack of knowledge to the law.

Not being a dick here, but have you got a source for the bolded bit? I've been googling it but haven't been able to find it.

Jawgap

server down wrote: »

That makes no sense. A universal basic income would be something everybody gets.

No, it makes sense if you actually read what I posted. I expressed support for a basic income, not a universal basic income......in fact if you actually read what I posted you'll see my support was qualified on this specific point......here, I'll repeat again for you do you can, no doubt, mis-read itvsgain.....

Jawgap wrote: »

I'd generally agree with the idea of a basic income, underwritten by the government but only for people in work. You can achieve that through a combination of tax relief, manadatory minimum wage and supplemental income payments.

The only deduction should be a small social insurance contribution to cover elevated welfare payments for 6 months if you are made unemployed.

After that, subsistence welfare payments only.

Dr Brown

padd b1975 wrote: »

Numbers come from the CSO, not the government.

And who funds the CSO ?

padd b1975

Dr Brown wrote: »

And who funds the CSO ?

The taxpayer.

screamer

padd b1975 wrote: »

Numbers come from the CSO, not the government.

Numbers are highly suspicious as you have people in "training" who are on benefit but not included as unemployed. I've seen people do 40 week courses to become an administrator, courses run by private companies. Now there's a waste of money and people's time. So much more could be done for them in 40 weeks than learning admin, but I get the feeling that the companies running these courses are just milking it......

fryup

fryup wrote: »

did she know she was being recorded??

isn't their privacy laws against this sort of thing?

Snotty wrote: »

as long as one party to the conversation consents to the recording, it is perfectly legal

so i could consent to recording someone without their prior knowledge?? and then upload it online??

doesn't seem right to me

midlandsmissus

Huntergonzo wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I did raise the issue with them.
Why should I who has studied and paid for four years of university take a low paying job. It makes no sense rhyme or reason to an economy!
What Galled me is that they were not trying to help me. They were trying to rush me into any job because they get financial rewards (as a private company) for taking people off the social welfare system.

Load of bollox. Why would I be rushed into a low paying job by them when I can get a better paid job in another country. I took another job in another country.

Sounds a bit snobby to be honest with you, why shouldn't you take a low paid job, do you see yourself as above that? I think you need a dose of reality, fairplay for getting a degree but that doesn't automatically entitle you to your ideal job!

I mean needs must, the whole point of jobseekers is that you're seeking a job, so why not work a low paid job for a bit until something better comes along? I'd imagine most employers would rather hire somebody who is already working than someone who is unemployed, rightly or wrongly that's seen as an advantage.

Personally I took up a JobBridge position after 3rd level (I didn't do a degree), and got full-time employment while on JobBridge. Life isn't a stroll in the park, you do what you have to do.

But don't I have a civil right to choose my own job?

_Brian

Wanderer78 wrote: »

This is a perfect example of how NOT to deal with the complex causes of unemployment, particularly long term unemployment

This model was forced in as part of tue troica deal, even though there was a mountain of evidence it had failed in England.
Word from the department is that the contracts will not be renewed after this current term, I think the contracts were 3 years so I’d imagine another 12-18 months and it will be gone.

Sonics2k

midlandsmissus wrote: »

But don't I have a civil right to choose my own job?

No?

You absolutely have a civil right to apply for any job, but certainly not choose any job.

jaxxx

Red Corvette wrote: »

I don't understand the hate towards the unemployed in this thread. We're all entitled to claim assistance if we were to lose our jobs. I have read about these English companies. They just take you in and you job hunt in their presence. Nothing you can't do at home. But they force people to spend money travelling and make them go out of the way to these meetings. But the force that they use is using your jobseekers benefit and threaten to cut you off if you don't engage with them. There's something wrong with the whole process.

I've been unemployed a couple months now and was assigned to Turas Nua. After several sessions in there, I'm no closer to finding a job and quite frankly am struggling to see what benefit I'm getting of going in there every other week or so. On average I apply for around 10 jobs per week. I'm not a greedy person, I'm only looking for something entry level but I'm struggling to find anything like that. I can't even find part-time work. And nothing that Turas Nua has done for me has helped me in that regard one bit whatsoever. Every meeting I go in, talk for a couple minutes about whether I've had interviews/training done in the last two weeks and I hand in my little sheet with jobs I've applied for. That's it, nothing more.

At this stage I would nearly kill for the chance to get on one of those CE schemes, actually be able to get out and do some bit of work for my money every week. But CE scheme only applies if you're unemployed for at least 12 months in a row. I'm so disheartened and depressed that it's caused me to lose so much confidence and I'm actually terrified that that may have started to come off in the very few interviews I do get.

Faith+1

Sonics2k wrote: »

Not being a dick here, but have you got a source for the bolded bit? I've been googling it but haven't been able to find it.

http://www.unitedpeople.ie/the-seetec-threat/

server down

fryup wrote: »

so i could consent to recording someone without their prior knowledge?? and then upload it online??

doesn't seem right to me

You have to be part of the conversation. Good law.

server down

jaxxx wrote: »

I've been unemployed a couple months now and was assigned to Turas Nua. After several sessions in there, I'm no closer to finding a job and quite frankly am struggling to see what benefit I'm getting of going in there every other week or so. On average I apply for around 10 jobs per week. I'm not a greedy person, I'm only looking for something entry level but I'm struggling to find anything like that. I can't even find part-time work. And nothing that Turas Nua has done for me has helped me in that regard one bit whatsoever. Every meeting I go in, talk for a couple minutes about whether I've had interviews/training done in the last two weeks and I hand in my little sheet with jobs I've applied for. That's it, nothing more.

At this stage I would nearly kill for the chance to get on one of those CE schemes, actually be able to get out and do some bit of work for my money every week. But CE scheme only applies if you're unemployed for at least 12 months in a row. I'm so disheartened and depressed that it's caused me to lose so much confidence and I'm actually terrified that that may have started to come off in the very few interviews I do get.

There’s lots of stories like this out there. Doesn’t seem like full employment to me.

server down

Sonics2k wrote: »

No?

You absolutely have a civil right to apply for any job, but certainly not choose any job.

It in the interests of us all that she gets the higher paying job and pays more taxes. Otherwise why are we educating her. If all these services do is bully people into any job they are useless except to their shareholders.

Huntergonzo

midlandsmissus wrote: »

But don't I have a civil right to choose my own job?

Answer my question first, if you're up to it, then I'll have a go at yours.

Guy:Incognito

server down wrote: »

It in the interests of us all that she gets the higher paying job and pays more taxes. Otherwise why are we educating her. If all these services do is bully people into any job they are useless except to their shareholders.

Does she need to be on the dole to get the higher paying job?

Is it not more beneficial to her and the econ9my if shes in a job, earning more than the dole and contributing taxes while looking for and getting the job she wants?

Mrs OBumble

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

What's the point of Turas Nua though? All they and seetec do is provide the same services that are supposed to be provided by intreo.

It baffles me that some of here are so indignant at their tax money going to people on the dole, but seem perfectly fine with more of said tax money going to these pointless companies.

It's a bit like voluntary housing associations working alongside council social housing departments: if someone burns their bridges with one organisation, it increases the motivation to not burn them with the other. (And yes, this is another case of the government contracting private companies to provide services for it, and of it giving personal details to them.)

Contracting specialists to help deal with unemployed people, and especially those who risk-profiling shows are likely to take a long time to get a job, is not a new idea, or a particularly Tory one. It was done in New Zealand in the 1990s, and likely elsewhere too.

The staff of Intreo are clerical workers, typically not having the professional skills to do in-depth 1:1 work required to get a potential long-term beneficiary past their barriers. And certainly not paid enough or supervised for exercising such skills if they do have them.

NinetyTwoTeam

jaxxx wrote: »

I've been unemployed a couple months now and was assigned to Turas Nua. After several sessions in there, I'm no closer to finding a job and quite frankly am struggling to see what benefit I'm getting of going in there every other week or so. On average I apply for around 10 jobs per week. I'm not a greedy person, I'm only looking for something entry level but I'm struggling to find anything like that. I can't even find part-time work. And nothing that Turas Nua has done for me has helped me in that regard one bit whatsoever. Every meeting I go in, talk for a couple minutes about whether I've had interviews/training done in the last two weeks and I hand in my little sheet with jobs I've applied for. That's it, nothing more.

At this stage I would nearly kill for the chance to get on one of those CE schemes, actually be able to get out and do some bit of work for my money every week. But CE scheme only applies if you're unemployed for at least 12 months in a row. I'm so disheartened and depressed that it's caused me to lose so much confidence and I'm actually terrified that that may have started to come off in the very few interviews I do get.

You're not alone in this, and my advice is to try and avoid boards if it's getting you down as the site is always chock full of dole bashing threads. I guess a lot of users are from Dublin, or else they didn't get hit hard by the recession because they have this attitude of 'there's loadsa jobs, sure they're everywhere', when in reality some areas of Ireland are still total wastelands with little opportunities. Last week I had someone ask 'well if there no jobs where you live, why don't you move?' as if that hadn't occurred to me.

I'm on Jobpath now it's the same thing, give you all these questionnaires to try and find out what character flaw is keeping you unemployed, when it's the lack of jobs that is keeping me unemployed, and the high cost of living in Ireland making it impossible for a person on the dole to save enough to fund a relocation to somewhere better.

Hopefully Jobpath will go the way of Jobbridge and get scrapped, because it's not fit for purpose. But sadly our government basically just copies what the Tories do in England, and that's where this scheme came from.

server down

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Does she need to be on the dole to get the higher paying job?

Is it not more beneficial to her and the econ9my if shes in a job, earning more than the dole and contributing taxes while looking for and getting the job she wants?

Maybe that’s not very useful in terms of interview preparation. I doubt the bullocks spouted here that google is looking for people with 2 years Tesco experience.

222233

Granted I don't fully understand the imagery in this video, I think this man has a right to have his contract independently assessed. I don't understand why he couldn't have a copy until after he had signed it?

It tends to be standard practice that people read into and have contracts assessed before signing off. I really don't understand why the document could not leave the building or why he couldn't make a copy..

um7y1h83ge06nx

Is this not all that different to having to sign a contract before you can obtain a mortgage and draw down funds?

So many things are conditional on people signing a contract, I'm not sure if it could be considered coercion but telling someone they will not receive dole, a mortgage etc. If they don't sign.

That said I'm not a solicitor.

The Backwards Man

The Backwards Man wrote: »

If only he would put the same energy into finding work.

He's probably happy out doing fnck all and getting enough to get by.

Xenji

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's a bit like voluntary housing associations working alongside council social housing departments: if someone burns their bridges with one organisation, it increases the motivation to not burn them with the other. (And yes, this is another case of the government contracting private companies to provide services for it, and of it giving personal details to them.)

Contracting specialists to help deal with unemployed people, and especially those who risk-profiling shows are likely to take a long time to get a job, is not a new idea, or a particularly Tory one. It was done in New Zealand in the 1990s, and likely elsewhere too.

The staff of Intreo are clerical workers, typically not having the professional skills to do in-depth 1:1 work required to get a potential long-term beneficiary past their barriers. And certainly not paid enough or supervised for exercising such skills if they do have them.

Specialists? Take a look at the requirements to be an employment advisor with Seetec, one of the two private companies in this country, just even the first 3.

Skills and Experience

Who we are looking for:

Applicants selected for interview should be confident in their capacity to demonstrate:

Qualifications - Leaving Certificate standard (as a minimum).

A third level degree is desirable but not a pre-requisite,

Minimum of one year experience in a recruitment, sales, training and/or customer facing role.

https://www.irishjobs.ie/Jobs/Employment-Advisor-Athlone-8080491.aspx

Stonedpilot

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's a bit like voluntary housing associations working alongside council social housing departments: if someone burns their bridges with one organisation, it increases the motivation to not burn them with the other. (And yes, this is another case of the government contracting private companies to provide services for it, and of it giving personal details to them.)

Contracting specialists to help deal with unemployed people, and especially those who risk-profiling shows are likely to take a long time to get a job, is not a new idea, or a particularly Tory one. It was done in New Zealand in the 1990s, and likely elsewhere too.

The staff of Intreo are clerical workers, typically not having the professional skills to do in-depth 1:1 work required to get a potential long-term beneficiary past their barriers. And certainly not paid enough or supervised for exercising such skills if they do have them.

Specialists?!? LOL. You need a leaving cert to work for these people its really simpleton trained monkey type stuff. Most working for Turas Nua have little to no skills at all and would struggle to get work with a "proper" company not this fly by night boiler room type set up. First links/Working links the company behind Seetec and Turas Nua are notorious for fraud and have rolled the Irish government for millions with this swindle.
Specialists in swindling the State outta money perhaps.

Wanderer78

I know somebody that has made some recordings of their turas nua meetings, disturbing stuff really, they actually refused to accept doctors certs!

Jim Bob Scratcher

This Turas Nua and Seetec crowd need to be shut down pronto, they sound like nothing but con artists

Guy:Incognito

server down wrote: »

Maybe that’s not very useful in terms of interview preparation. I doubt the bullocks spouted here that google is looking for people with 2 years Tesco experience.

But they're crying out for 2 years on the dole experience?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Nout123 wrote: »

My understanding of contract law is limited, But. As far as I know you cannot be forced to sign anything. And if you are coerced or under distress the contract is null and void. So strong arm tactics like this are Illegal.

In this case, it's certainly not coercion. He's not being strong armed into anything. It's his choice not to sign, so he has to live with the concequences. Just because the alternative is not pretty, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Stonedpilot wrote: »

You need a leaving cert to work for these people its really simpleton trained monkey type stuff. Most working for Turas Nua have little to no skills at all and would struggle to get work with a "proper" company not this fly by night boiler room type set up.

That's a fairly condisending and ignorant generalization. Good job

seachto7

222233 wrote: »

Granted I don't fully understand the imagery in this video, I think this man has a right to have his contract independently assessed. I don't understand why he couldn't have a copy until after he had signed it?

It tends to be standard practice that people read into and have contracts assessed before signing off. I really don't understand why the document could not leave the building or why he couldn't make a copy..

Yep, but at the end of the day, he could sign it, because he won't change anything there and then, and still kick up a fuss about it.

elperello

seachto7 wrote: »

Yep, but at the end of the day, he could sign it, because he won't change anything there and then, and still kick up a fuss about it.

Valid point but his citizen journalism/campaigning has shone a light for those who wish to see.

Da Regulator

The person's dole should be cut by 100%. Could anyone realistically imagine trying to employ a guy who acts like this?

elperello

Da Regulator wrote: »

The person's dole should be cut by 100%. Could anyone realistically imagine trying to employ a guy who acts like this?

Then what?

Da Regulator

elperello wrote: »

Then what?

He can go and find some work

seachto7

elperello wrote: »

Valid point but his citizen journalism/campaigning has shone a light for those who wish to see.

Indeed, but at the end of the day, he's on the dole, and the only thing in front of him is "do I want to continue getting free money or not"

Da Regulator

I was on the dole. Filling in a few forms is a small price to keep you fed. I don't care about the data protection BS he's spouting. Ireland needs to toughen up on these leeches.

elperello

Please go back and read what this thread is about.