BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

josip

There are always suspicions surrounding the Young Scientists of the Year winners.
Some of it well founded, some not.
No surprise given the credit for its founding being claimed by Tony Scott.

mariaalice

People are missing the point a bit, its not just what the project is about its the work behinds it.

Two entrance could be working on a project of the same type but one will go above and beyond by a million in their project and that the crucial difference how do you answer the question are they going above and beyond all by themselves or because of the support they are getting.

However.

Is having a certain type of environment and support a big factor absolutely.

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/traits/intelligence

"These studies suggest that genetic factors underlie about 50 percent of the difference in intelligence among individuals.


These studies have not conclusively identified any genes that underlie differences in intelligence. It is likely that a large number of genes are involved, each of which makes only a small contribution to a person’s intelligence.

Intelligence is also strongly influenced by the environment. Factors related to a child’s home environment and parenting, education and availability of learning resources, and nutrition"

mariaalice

If for a variety of reasons he was at the level of a postdoctoral student even though he was only 15 and he was coached by his mother would that still be considered "fraud" in the young scientist projects?.

Stoner

Bitches Be Trypsin wrote:

I'm currently doing research on finding an antibiotic against MRSA in CIT. I'm using soil samples. Dr. Lucey has guided me and taught me for the last two years about various aspects of biology. However, I'm not copying her project. How can you say he is, and I'm not?

Well you told us for a start, so you've acknowledged the guidance, that's number 1.

You are a 3rd level fee paying student being thought by a paid employee. The other students around you have the same resources, it's roughly fair. Here we are talking about kids, in 2nd level education with 2nd level teachers.

It's surprising that you can't see the difference here or can't see the potential of a boundary cross is surprising for someone studying at that level.

It's not about who was credited it's about who was not
It's not about the huge amount of work the student did, it's about the potential work that was spared.

Again I don't know a lot about this, I'd rather not make this personal.

So

Academically, individuals aside , this set of conditions if they occurred in my opinion would need some clarification, for everyone

Wombatman

mariaalice wrote: »

If for a variety of reasons he was at the level of a postdoctoral student even though he was only 15 and he was coached by his mother would that still be considered "fraud" in the young scientist projects?.

It's not about the young fella or how talented\intelegent or otherwise he is. I'm sure he did put in a lot of hard work and he deserves credit for that.

The problem here the consistent omission of any reference to his mother who is a researcher in his project field. Revealing the mothers occupation in the field would not doubt beg the question "Could any student bring the project over the line given the support that he obviously received?"

Maybe the answer to this question is no, but people should have in a position to consider it before hand, and not just the heartwarming link to his herbalist granddad.

Martina1991

When I look at these young scientist projects I think back to my own level of scientific understanding at that age. These students have a junior cert standard of education. Junior cert Biology only scratches the surface of bacteria, viruses and fungi.

I got an A in science, I pursued it and now work as a scientist. I wouldn't have had a clue about understanding the parthenogenesis of antibiotic resistant bacteria in 4th year.

An inquisitive mind and intelligence is one thing, but having family members in a scientific field is a major advantage.

mariaalice

Martina1991 wrote: »

When I look at these young scientist projects I think back to my own level of scientific understanding at that age. These students have a junior cert standard of education. Junior cert Biology only scratches the surface of bacteria, viruses and fungi.

I got an A in science, I pursued it and now work as a scientist. I wouldn't have had a clue about understanding the parthenogenesis of antibiotic resistant bacteria in 4th year.

An inquisitive mind and intelligence is one thing, but having family members in a scientific field is a major advantage.

This a good point but how do you account for it in the young scientist setting, should pupils be banned from doing projects based on an area their parents or relatives are involved in how to account for the children of maths and science teacher.

Martina1991

mariaalice wrote: »

This a good point but how do you account for it in the young scientist setting, should pupils be banned from doing projects based on an area their parents or relatives are involved in how to account for the children of maths and science teacher.

I don't know how you could police it. If it's not the parents, the student could have an aunt/uncle/cousin that's a scientist as well.

It may be just a case of don't hate the player, hate the game.
To excel in the competition students are probably well aware they need a good deal of help from an experienced individual, and the resources to go with it.

Roger Hassenforder

mariaalice wrote: »

Martina1991 wrote: »

When I look at these young scientist projects I think back to my own level of scientific understanding at that age. These students have a junior cert standard of education. Junior cert Biology only scratches the surface of bacteria, viruses and fungi.

I got an A in science, I pursued it and now work as a scientist. I wouldn't have had a clue about understanding the parthenogenesis of antibiotic resistant bacteria in 4th year.

An inquisitive mind and intelligence is one thing, but having family members in a scientific field is a major advantage.

This a good point but how do you account for it in the young scientist setting, should pupils be banned from doing projects based on an area their parents or relatives are involved in how to account for the children of maths and science teacher.

One way would be banning equipment not reasonably found in a secondary school, and when i hear the words "organic chemistry" in a secondary school science project alarm bells ring.

Microscope: fine.
Electron microscope: GTFO
Burette/pipette/conical flask: fine
HPLC/GC: GTFO

jmayo

Marty Bird wrote: »

From the IT..

The fourth year student has dedicated his work to his grandfather, Eddie Lucey, a well-known herbalist and science teacher in Bandon. Now 82, he helped people with medical conditions using herbs grown in his back garden; a tradition going back generations in his family.

Not one mention of the mother working in that field whatsoever..

So the mother works in a field, but the grandfather worked in a garden.
So where again is the young fella going to work ?

sullivlo wrote: »

As somebody who has:
- won the young scientist myself
- supervised/mentored a project that won two significant prizes
- worked at the young scientist
- provided assistance with reagents/equipment to projects over the years
- judged at science competitions

... I have some strong opinions on this topic, and am in a good position to comment.

Is it suspicious? Absolutely.

Do say ?

Marty Bird wrote: »

Is there a chance that parents/teachers had a say in the project? Yes.

Now the interesting thing is how big a say mammy had seen as she has been involved professionally and academically in this very research for over a decade ?

Marty Bird wrote: »

I spoke this years winner during the week. I did a postdoc position on a similar project so I had a genuine interest in it, and a good knowledge of the techniques he used. The kid is great, and he 100% did the work himself.

How can you say that he 100% of the work ?
Can you say with 100% certainty that he didn't just follow everything mammy did and advised.
Does doing all the legwork following a carefully laid out tried and tested roadmap as per mammy count as a great project ?

Marty Bird wrote: »

In conclusion/TL/DR: it is suspicious, but from experience sometimes kids are just *that* good at science.

They may be good at science and they can also bend the rules.

jmayo

ThisRegard wrote: »

The Collison brothers are certainly living the life, still making millions upon millions on the back of their parents Young Scientists work if theories here are applied.

Patrick Collison was programming at age 10, and it wasn't on a Raspberry Pi neither.
He won with an AI project involving the creation a LISP like language.
And anyone that has ever worked with LISP would say it a is bit of an acquired taste unlike some other languages.

Their dad was an electrical engineer who ran a hotel and their mother ran a corporate training company from their home and has a background in
microbiology.
Neither of them it seems worked in AI, or to level where they were creating their own computer languages.

Patrick spent his last year studying at home and did his 2 year leaving cert cycle in one year AFAIK.

I don't know if this kid in Cork has shown such aptitude, all I know so far is his project mirrors that carried out by his mother 10 odd years ago.

Bitches Be Trypsin wrote: »

His mother currently lectures me in CIT, she doesn't lecture in UCC, just to clear that up. She is an incredibly honest, successful and ethical woman, and while she may have helped him in his studies, I have no doubt at all that the boy did the majority of the work.

Bitches Be Trypsin wrote: »

I'm currently doing research on finding an antibiotic against MRSA in CIT. I'm using soil samples. Dr. Lucey has guided me and taught me for the last two years about various aspects of biology. However, I'm not copying her project. How can you say he is, and I'm not?

Forgive us for disregarding your glowing recommendation on her character.
You have huge skin in the game here.
It is in your personal best interests that there are no questions regarding her input into her son's prominent project, that there is no hint of impropriety attached to her in a professional and ethical capacity, because otherwise how does it look when her name appears on anything you publish down the road.

Tom Mann Centuria

A very interesting thread on twitter imo, it's not begrudgery, it's an acknowledgement that a "normal" student from a normal background cannot compete and it's a completely unfair playing field.

https://twitter.com/alancostello/status/952243965310496768

Sac O Spuds

Just caught TV3 news and they showed him back in school today. Says he has his grandfather to thank. Spouted off some guff about cures being found in nature and dealing with the newfound fame. No mention of the Mammy.

Carlos Orange

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

A very interesting thread on twitter imo, it's not begrudgery, it's an acknowledgement that a "normal" student from a normal background cannot compete and it's a completely unfair playing field.

https://twitter.com/alancostello/status/952243965310496768

The tweet from a person saying they tried to enter a similar project before and it was rejected due to safety concerns was interesting.

Stoner

jmayo wrote:

Their dad was an electrical engineer who ran a hotel and their mother ran a corporate training company from their home and has a background in microbiology. Neither of them it seems worked in AI, or to level where they were creating their own computer languages.

I agree as an electrical engineer with additional IT qualifications, LISP etc were not on our Engineering radar, I'd to cover that elsewhere

I do know an electronic engineer from DCU who's project was on AI and works at it to this day, but that was rare

valoren

Sac O Spuds wrote: »

Just caught TV3 news and they showed him back in school today. Says he has his grandfather to thank. Spouted off some guff about cures being found in nature and dealing with the newfound fame. No mention of the Mammy.

"If I have seen further, then it is because I was standing on the shoulders of my mother"

goose2005

sullivlo wrote: »

As somebody who has:
- won the young scientist myself
- supervised/mentored a project that won two significant prizes
- worked at the young scientist
- provided assistance with reagents/equipment to projects over the years
- judged at science competitions

... I have some strong opinions on this topic, and am in a good position to comment.

Is it suspicious? Absolutely.

Is there a chance that parents/teachers had a say in the project? Yes.

Are there students out there that are just amazing and use their own initiative and contacts to get help? 100%.

When my students won, I was gobsmacked at the list of people that they had contacted for help. Not for the people to do the experiment, but for help with a technique or a technical aspect of the project. In the same way that when I was in academia I would help students who contacted me.

At the event, students are subjected to judging by experts in a field, and they are grilled to ensure that they did the work themselves, and it is quickly very obvious as to what they actually did and what anybody else did.

I spoke this years winner during the week. I did a postdoc position on a similar project so I had a genuine interest in it, and a good knowledge of the techniques he used. The kid is great, and he 100% did the work himself. Did his family help? Absolutely. His family inspired him through discussion, and would have aided him in his choice of interest by discussing their own work at home over the years.

There were several other incredible projects on display this year. Projects that, on paper, were better than the winning projects. But within two minutes it was obvious to anyone with any significant science background that somebody else did the work.

Sometimes people just have a passion for it, and they know what to do and they do it. When I won, it was in a field unfamiliar to my teacher, so it was my own/my groups work. When my students won, I felt like a fraud when people congratulated me, because my function was to sign the forms and proof read their work as I hadn’t a clue what they were up to. When students would cold-call me and ask if they could use something in the lab, the answer was always yes, and I would help them in any way that I could.

In conclusion/TL/DR: it is suspicious, but from experience sometimes kids are just *that* good at science.

nice post, did your mother write it for you?

goose2005

diomed wrote: »

Year School
1995 Abbey Grammar School, Newry
1993 Abbey Grammar School, Newry, Co. Down

1977 Colaiste Mhuire, Dublin
1972 Colte Mhuire, Baile Atha Cliath

2013 Kinsale Community School, Cork
2006 Kinsale Community School, County Cork
2009 Kinsale Community School, County Cork

1999 Scoil Mhuire Gan Sm Blarney
2010 Scoil Mhuire Gan Sm Blarney, County Cork

1975 St Finian’s College, Mullingar, Co. Westmeath
2003 St Finnian's College, Mullingar, County Westmeath

2004 Synge Street CBS, Dublin
2007 Synge Street CBS, Dublin
2012 Synge Street CBS, Dublin


43 years of the contest, 14 won by multiple school winners.
723 secondary schools in Ireland.

and 3 counties out of 32 have won 72% of the hurling all-Irelands. Clearly they're cheating too.

joe40

The young scientist competition overall is great, but I strongly believe projects should be at leaving certificate standard of science, and not require specialist equipment.
How did a pupil in a school lab carry out investigations using MRSA. I teach Science in the North and no way would that be allowed. These are nasty pathogens. Leaving cert standard does not mean limited to the content of the leaving cert rather the sampling and measurement techniques employed should be accessible to all students.
I think it would be interesting if the organisers produced a list of projects beforehand (only broad outline) and pupils had to choose one to investigate. This  would still leave a lot of original work and ideas for pupils to do.

goose2005

Irene Joliot-Curie won a Nobel Prize for discovering artificial radioactivity, although presumably her parents did all the work for her too

Wombatman

goose2005 wrote: »

Irene Joliot-Curie won a Nobel Prize for discovering artificial radioactivity, although presumably her parents did all the work for her too

Did she acknowledge their contribution perchance?

evolving_doors

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

It's just like in the Simpsons pinebox derby race episode.

Well off academic parents = you get to cruise in the Roadkill 2000.

Working class parents = you have to drive the wonky car Homer Simpson built that falls apart before the finish line.

Except in reality the cheater always wins, as he did in the young scientist contest. It's actually really annoying me now, the parents are probably going around like they are so proud when they should be ashamed.

That's unfair. He might have fulfilled everything to the letter as set out in competition requirements. What he puts forward or doesn't in the media is up to him.

Dan Jaman

Hmm... In previous years I've been struck by the apparent similarity of the winner's project to things I know were already done elsewhere, and the presenters gush over it as if it's brand new and original work.
This is partly the fault of the media-trained journalists, who know nothing about anything sciencey, so take at face value what they're told, but I think it also reflects on the judging and selection.

diomed

goose2005 wrote: »

and 3 counties out of 32 have won 72% of the hurling all-Irelands. Clearly they're cheating too.

6 schools out of 723 (0.83%) won 32.5% of the Young Scientists.
Or 6 schools won as much as you would expect 269 schools to win.

What has hurling got to do with the Young Scientist competition?

evolving_doors

weldoninhio wrote: »

Q. How many schools in Ireland do you know that are allowed use pathogenic bacterial strains, like this kid used for his project??

A. None

This has been explained before. Schools are allowed to link in with colleges.

Roger Hassenforder

Elijah Chubby Typographer wrote: »

Well having had 2 teens enter this project they both felt very let down after competing in BTYS last year and this year.... My son had a wonderful project last year all his own work and completely original . . The hours he worked on it were beyond crazy . He didn't come away with any prize , not even a highly commended rosette
The entry that came 1st in my sons category had a bread/dough related product project . This winner has a dad who owns a bakery and a uncle working there too. Members of the public who came in to view kept saying to this winner "Oh I saw this on Nationwide on TV a while back " and yes upon googling the whole thing was there. That wasn't right BT so no checks .

This year my daughter did a fab project = again original we've no universities near us and it was all her idea and work. She again got nothing but the student that got 1st has both parents as English teachers and her project was in behavioural sciences about literacy. Student told me her Mum and Dad had no Christmas break as they had to help her.

There is no way BT can police what help kids get and there is no time in the judging process to find out if the idea is original so its a bit disheartening indeed.

This is what annoys me.
Any kid thinking of entering it now knows the deck is stacked against them, going up against kids drawing on third level post graduate level resources, and says feck that. Any kid from a disadvantaged area can forget it.

Its a competition for kids, not for parents. I hope that winners mother feels like i did the time i dribbled past 6 of my kids friends (went around one of them twice, the fcukin mug), and let fly a screamer from 10 yards into the top corner of the net. Keeper hadnt a chance, skidded along the grass on my knees to the corner flag.
He was 5.

Give back the money. Do the decent thing.

diomed

Schools should refuse to enter. End the farce.

Mickeroo

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Its a competition for kids, not for parents. I hope that winners mother feels like i did the time i dribbled past 6 of my kids friends (went around one of them twice, the fcukin mug), and let fly a screamer from 10 yards into the top corner of the net. Keeper hadnt a chance, skidded along the grass on my knees to the corner flag.
He was 5.

Laughed harder at this than I probably should have.

Austria!

Bitches Be Trypsin wrote: »

I'm currently doing research on finding an antibiotic against MRSA in CIT. I'm using soil samples. Dr. Lucey has guided me and taught me for the last two years about various aspects of biology. However, I'm not copying her project. How can you say he is, and I'm not?

_Dara_ wrote: »

She'll be credited in your work though. She might even be second author if you publish. We don't know if she wasn't credited in his work but in this context, it's strange that he didn't mention her. He did bring up his inspirations.

She could be credited in the work, or even second author, but only if she contributed to the paper or experiments in the paper. If she only taught BBT about aspects of biology then she would not be credited.
People get all sorts of help in science, being allowed to use or shown how to use different bits of equipment, given good ideas at presentations or at conferences, helped out with some stats etc. None of it needs to be credited, though sometimes it might get an acknowledgment at the end of the paper depending on what it is.

If all the boys mother did was tell/show him how to isolate compounds from plants and test them for anti-bacterial action, then she didn't do the work.

Martina1991 wrote: »

I got an A in science, I pursued it and now work as a scientist. I wouldn't have had a clue about understanding the parthenogenesis of antibiotic resistant bacteria in 4th year.

I would have had. And kids have google these days. You know you could probably literally email some scientist in the area and ask how to do it or for a link to some study which is similar.
Parthenogenesis is the wrong word btw. You meant pathogenesis,which is not exactly what this kids was studying either, but antibacterial activity.

spurious

diomed wrote:

Schools should refuse to enter. End the farce.

Many already do.