Rent

daheff

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

There is no one simple reason why there's a scarcity of rental accommodation in the cities but plenty of individual reasons that when compounded turn into the crisis that we currently have:


[*]A decade where commercial construction of accommodation practically ceased
.

so population grew from 4.239m in 2006 census to 4.581m in 2011 census to 4.761m in 2016. So roughly 500K more people in 10 years. 200k in 5 years.

48K more occupied properties in 2016 than 2011. About 10k a year.

Reasonably speaking, a new property would house 3 people (on average) so the amount of new properties (while not covering the increase in people) would account for a smaller % of the problem than people may think.


There wasnt a crazy rent boom in 2011, but there was in 2016 and getting higher.

I would read that construction(Supply) is not the main issue here.


So if we ask what else is going on in the market? Well there are a number of charities buying up properties and renting them to low/no income families. This is reducing the overall supply of properties. This means that the top end of the market is now fine (they have disposable income to cover their rent), bottom part is being looked after (somebody else is subsidising a lot of them)...but the middle is being squeezed again.

There are more middle income people chasing fewer properties (because of increase in numbers going to low income people). Because middle income people have excess disposable income (or had), they are using some of this to bid up the rent they are prepared (or have to) pay.

So unless there is a quick increase in available properties (and rents drop), a lot of middle income people will not be able to save money for a deposit to buy their own place. So a sizeable amount of people will be stuck in rental limbo for life.

link to census below.

https://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/newsevents/documents/census2016summaryresultspart1/Census2016SummaryPart1.pdf

Lux23

Lux23 wrote: »

.............The growing middle class you're talking about isn't doing any better than the working classes of the 70s.............

We don't live in the 70s though. We live in the world of today. Today's middle class are today's middle class regardless of what the working classes of the 70s got up to.

In the 70s a typical working class family and many middle class ones too had one income, one car, one holiday, no smart phones etc and rarely ate out. Takeaways were a real treat.

Two incomes, two cars, plenty weekends away and at least one foreign holiday are the norm nowadays for middle class couple and middle class singletons have a great standard of living compared to folk in the 70s too.

If you can't afford a car, a holiday or your rent nowadays than you aren't middle class.

Fol20

Lux23 wrote: »

Income inequality was at its lowest in 1978. Over the last four decades, the gap between the very wealthy and the middle classes has increased exponentially meaning you need a lot more money to attain the standard of living that your parents might have achieved on one income. There are far higher levels of participation in third level education, but the outcomes for these students isn't as positive as it would have been in the 80s or 90s. The growing middle class you're talking about isn't doing any better than the working classes of the 70s, and the price of rent is one reason why.

Income inequality has risen massively however standard of living has increased massively for all classes. We had little to no social protections i decades ago, multiple families may have been in the same house, no car, luxuries, travel, health care, the list goes on. The standard of living for all classes is much better now.

Fol20

Fol20 wrote: »

.......... The standard of living for all classes is much better now.

Indeed, the fact that some folk reckon that a middle class person or couple is no better off today than a working class family of the 70s is absolute lunacy.

Airyfairy12

Augeo wrote: »

Indeed, the fact that some folk reckon that a middle class person or couple is no better off today than a working class family of the 70s is absolute lunacy.

My grandparents where working class in the 70's, a family of 6 lived off my grandads wage, he worked in a factory doing metal work, they owned a car, a house and never went without food. Theres families on two wages that cant afford to feed their kids these days and havnt a hope of owning a house.

My parents in the 80's got married, owned a house and a car and raised a family on two minimum wage incomes.

Lux23

Augeo wrote: »

Indeed, the fact that some folk reckon that a middle class person or couple is no better off today than a working class family of the 70s is absolute lunacy.

It's not lunacy - look at the data.

https://www.maynoothuniversity.ie/sites/default/files/assets/document/O%27Connor%20NatTASCreport_0.pdf

whisky_galore

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

There is no one simple reason why there's a scarcity of rental accommodation in the cities but plenty of individual reasons that when compounded turn into the crisis that we currently have:

1. A decade where commercial construction of accommodation practically ceased
2. Lack of access to credit for developers and builders since the crash
3. A government policy where social housing construction ceased decades ago
4. Planning authorities routinely denying planning permission to high density accommodation in urban areas
5. Units lying empty whose ownership is contested in courts (between builders, developers, NAMA, banks etc)
6. The transfer of units from the long-term rental market to the short-term rental market (AirBnB)
7. A growing population (includes immigration which disproportionately affects cities)
8. Central Bank restrictions on mortgages which have inflated the number of renters in the market (this is a good long term policy though as the crash showed that many need to be saved from themselves)

Many of these are outside of the control of government policy but two things that could certainly be done in the short-term are:

1. Restrictions on the short-term rental market to prevent units ending up on AirBnB full-time and being lost to the long-term rental market
2. A review of the criteria by which planning authorities reject planning permission. I'm all for them preventing the construction of crappy Celtic-tiger era shoe-box apartments but there should be an end to the practive whereby rejections occur due to the heights of the proposed buildings offending the sensibilities of the relevant bodies.

You can add property hoarding to that list too.

Airyfairy12

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

My grandparents where working class in the 70's, a family of 6 lived off my grandads wage, he worked in a factory doing metal work, they owned a car, a house and never went without food. Theres families on two wages that cant afford to feed their kids these days and havnt a hope of owning a house.

My parents in the 80's got married, owned a house and a car and raised a family on two minimum wage incomes.

There was no minimum wage in the 80s.
But I'm sure there are household s on 40k/annum wage incomes managing away nicely today (outside of Dublin etc) with a car & mortgage etc.

Lux23

Lux23 wrote: »

It's not lunacy - look at the data.

https://www.maynoothuniversity.ie/sites/default/files/assets/document/O%27Connor%20NatTASCreport_0.pdf

That didn't detail how working class folk in the 70s had multiple cars per house, foreign holidays, big TV etc etc

Airyfairy12

Augeo wrote: »

There was no minimum wage in the 80s.

They worked as unskilled laborers for low wage.

dudara

Something hs to give, but I don’t know what and I do t know when. It just isn’t sustainable

Students are being stretched to pay accommodation. If Mom & Dad are supporting them, then they’re often stretched too.

Young professionals are spending 50%+ of their salary just to rent. Heaven help you if you are a lower-paid worker in Dublin. You’ll be sleeping 6 in a single bunk bed in a grotty tenement.

Eventually even professional people will start to default on rent, or alternatively cut corners elsewhere such as health, food or basics.

Sunny Disposition

People need to start voting in a different way if they want change on this issue. Both FF and FG will let the market rip, the only type of intervention they are likely to make is giving grants to buyers which will drive up prices, or incentives to builders in the hopes that private enterprise will help accidentally.
Brexit is the canary in the mine for the established parties, the economy is going okay but not for everyone and there is going to be another big backlash if that doesn’t change. It’s a mad situation when people can’t aspire to buy homes, can’t even afford to rent them in many cases.

Edgware

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

People need to start voting in a different way if they want change on this issue. Both FF and FG will let the market rip, the only type of intervention they are likely to make is giving grants to buyers which will drive up prices, or incentives to builders in the hopes that private enterprise will help accidentally.
Brexit is the canary in the mine for the established parties, the economy is going okay but not for everyone and there is going to be another big backlash if that doesn’t change. It’s a mad situation when people can’t aspire to buy homes, can’t even afford to rent them in many cases.

Let's all vote for "three houses Adams" No sign of anyone goung to occupy his empty houses

Fr_Dougal

dudara wrote: »

Something hs to give, but I don’t know what and I do t know when. It just isn’t sustainable

Students are being stretched to pay accommodation. If Mom & Dad are supporting them, then they’re often stretched too.

Young professionals are spending 50%+ of their salary just to rent. Heaven help you if you are a lower-paid worker in Dublin. You’ll be sleeping 6 in a single bunk bed in a grotty tenement.

Eventually even professional people will start to default on rent, or alternatively cut corners elsewhere such as health, food or basics.

We’re in a tech bubble. Look at FB, Google, LinkedIn, the majority of these ‘tech’ companies. What are they? Advertising companies, overvalued advertising companies.

The bubble will burst, financial markets will contract, and the market will right itself. It will bring unemployment along with it.

mfceiling

Fol20 wrote: »

I’m all for protecting our own however the people that are immigrating to hear are highly skilled labour and add a lot of value to our economy. If you want to turn into the Japanese where they make it very difficult for other nationalities to move there, take a look at how well their economy is doing.

Are they really though? We're told we need more unskilled immigrant labour to do the jobs the "irish" won't/can't do. Who are stacking the shelves in dunnes? Sweeping the floors on building sites. Collecting the bins. Working behind the counter at Spar. I'll give you a guess and it's not Irish lads.

myshirt

Look, we've been through this before. The market teaches us not to panic. If I learned anything in this game, it's that a wife or a girlfriend will pass off a few 200 packs during visiting hours, supply will normalise, and we'll see cigarettes return to trading for a single handjob or less.

Sunny Disposition

mfceiling wrote: »

Are they really though? We're told we need more unskilled immigrant labour to do the jobs the "irish" won't/can't do. Who are stacking the shelves in dunnes? Sweeping the floors on building sites. Collecting the bins. Working behind the counter at Spar. I'll give you a guess and it's not Irish lads.

It’s not about the immigrants abilities or lack of though, the country just can’t absorb the amounts it has been taking in since 2003. That’s not to say that most of the Immigrants aren’t fine, hard working people. But bringing in too many people too quickly puts a strain on housing/infrastructure.

People don’t like to hear this, but the EU freedom of movement approach isn’t the best one. Restrictions, even liberal ones like Australia, are much more likely to be successful. It’s crazy, but if 300,000 people from other EU countries opt to come to Ireland next year they have to be let. The fact Ireland wouldn’t be ready for it has no bearing at all.

Pragmatism is replaced by ideology when it comes to EU immigration policy. I don’t believe it’s in any way racist to say so.

Fol20

mfceiling wrote: »

Are they really though? We're told we need more unskilled immigrant labour to do the jobs the "irish" won't/can't do. Who are stacking the shelves in dunnes? Sweeping the floors on building sites. Collecting the bins. Working behind the counter at Spar. I'll give you a guess and it's not Irish lads.

They would normally be unskilled young labour who may typically have larger families thus giving more into the tax system and generating revenue. Just take a look at how the Japanese model as works and there is a lot of cons to blocking the society.

mfceiling

Fol20 wrote: »

They would normally be unskilled young labour who may typically have larger families thus giving more into the tax system and generating revenue.

however the people that are immigrating to hear are highly skilled labour and add a lot of value to our economy.

Which is it?

Fol20

For european immigration, it can be both and you are right there can be a number of eastern european unskilled labour however i still consider this a good thing as we need a young vibrant workforce.

For countries outside eu, its mainly skilled labour.

Immigration is good for ireland and as mentioned, take a look at japan.

n97 mini

Dublin needs to go up. Sure it costs more per unit to build a 30+ storey building but there are plenty of people that are living in the suburbs that can afford it. Get them into high rise and it takes the pressure of the suburbs for those that want to live there... Families etc.

Additionally, many European cities are 6 to 8 stories tall outside of the high rise areas, whereas Dublin city centre has heaps of terraced bungalows. Around Connolly station is a case in point. While they may be quaint, they are the worst possible use of land.

KevinCavan

n97 mini wrote: »

Dublin needs to go up. Sure it costs more per unit to build a 30+ storey building but there are plenty of people that are living in the suburbs that can afford it. Get them into high rise and it takes the pressure of the suburbs for those that want to live there... Families etc.

Additionally, many European cities are 6 to 8 stories tall outside of the high rise areas, whereas Dublin city centre has heaps of terraced bungalows. Around Connolly station is a case in point. While they may be quaint, they are the worst possible use of land.

You would almost get the sense that the government doesn’t want to fix the housing crisis, that they would like to take credit for house prices going through the roof, as that has been our measure of the economy going well.

KevinCavan

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

It’s not about the immigrants abilities or lack of though, the country just can’t absorb the amounts it has been taking in since 2003. That’s not to say that most of the Immigrants aren’t fine, hard working people. But bringing in too many people too quickly puts a strain on housing/infrastructure.

People don’t like to hear this, but the EU freedom of movement approach isn’t the best one. Restrictions, even liberal ones like Australia, are much more likely to be successful. It’s crazy, but if 300,000 people from other EU countries opt to come to Ireland next year they have to be let. The fact Ireland wouldn’t be ready for it has no bearing at all.

Pragmatism is replaced by ideology when it comes to EU immigration policy. I don’t believe it’s in any way racist to say so.

I have nothing against the foreign workers, apart from the fact that the flood gates seem to be open and we haven’t got the buildings to house them all. Nobody has factored the mass migration to Ireland into any housing policy. I do fear that apart from the skilled foreign workers coming here to work, that we are taking in a cohort of foreigners willing to take welfare cheques and take advantage.

KevinCavan

If you can't afford a car, a holiday or your rent nowadays than you aren't middle class.[/quote]

Who is middle class in your book: Doctor, teacher, solicitor, college lecturer, factory manager, Garda, nurse, pub owner, vet, surgeon, psychiatrist...?

KevinCavan

Augeo wrote: »

Indeed, the fact that some folk reckon that a middle class person or couple is no better off today than a working class family of the 70s is absolute lunacy.

I do take your point, but very few families can survive on one income now compared to then.I’m all for equal rights for women, but has most women working resulted in couples paying more for houses and the need for both parents to work to cover a huge mortgage? I think most women with a six month old baby would rather stay home with that baby at the end of maternity leave, but I’m sure i’m Sexist to even mention that.

ChikiChiki

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

There's more than enough land here. The island could comfortably accommodate 5 times our current population. Rich or poor, mansions, renters and social housing, everyone needs somewhere to live. There needs to be a massive push to build more houses.

Housing is the number 1 problem facing the country at the moment, it was last year, and it will be next year too. Fine Gael will win or lose the next election on this issue.

They lose so because they do not have the capabilities to provide the correct solution.

whisky_galore

KevinCavan wrote: »

You would almost get the sense that the government doesn’t want to fix the housing crisis, that they would like to take credit for house prices going through the roof, as that has been our measure of the economy going well.

It suits many vested interests that the situation stays as it is.
For the moment at least.

Homeowners (who are more than happy that the value of their houses increase) are in for a nasty shock when their little dears mysteriously can't find accom for uni or work and they're handing out fists of money for rent or the kids are stuck at home with the auld ones.

jim salter

There are those out there that think this is simply 'the way it goes'. Well, it isn't. This is not a normal cycle in the same way as the previous cycles have not been normal.

Think about to what has lead to this point. Think why the rents are so high (and house price for that matter) while there are so many properties vacant (all owned by the same group of vulture funds)

Have a read of this : https://www.gregpalast.com/the-globalizer-who-came-in-from-the-cold/ - it's an article written in October 2001 about an interview with Joseph Stiglitz (the World Bank’s former Chief Economist)

optogirl

Assetbacked wrote: »

Leave the country. The next election will turn up some headbangers like SF or FF because the economy maybe strong but this has not translated into better finances for the vast majority of renters (effectively anyone under the age of 35).

and over

Keyzer

Not sure if this angle has been covered or if anyone is interested but thought I'd post it anyway.

I'm an accidental landlord. I bought a house at the worst possible time 10 years ago (my bad, not looking for a hug) and lost over 100K on it. Time moved on, things improved and we moved but I was damned if I was going to walk away with nothing. So we rented out the house.

I charge €1800 a month for a 3 bed house in Dublin 15.

After the mortgage is paid, I am left with nothing from the remaining income - absolutely nothing. All remaining money goes to the tax man.

Obviously, I'm in a better position than most given the mortgage is being chipped away every month but, other than that, I make nothing from the rental income.

Taxation with respect to rental income is a total mess and is one of the main reasons why rents are so high.

My two cents.

KevinCavan

KevinCavan wrote: »

I do take your point, but very few families can survive on one income now compared to then.I’m all for equal rights for women, but has most women working resulted in couples paying more for houses and the need for both parents to work to cover a huge mortgage? I think most women with a six month old baby would rather stay home with that baby at the end of maternity leave, but I’m sure i’m Sexist to even mention that.

Of course many would quite likely want to stay at home with their 6 month old baby but not if
- their husband took their only car to work and they were going to have to walk or public transport everywhere until he came home
- they could have no/very few weekends away or a decent annual foreign holiday
- they had little disposable income after the essentials were bought
- only eating out a handful of times a year

ChikiChiki

jim salter wrote: »

There are those out there that think this is simply 'the way it goes'. Well, it isn't. This is not a normal cycle in the same way as the previous cycles have not been normal.

Think about to what has lead to this point. Think why the rents are so high (and house price for that matter) while there are so many properties vacant (all owned by the same group of vulture funds)

Have a read of this : https://www.gregpalast.com/the-globalizer-who-came-in-from-the-cold/ - it's an article written in October 2001 about an interview with Joseph Stiglitz (the World Bank’s former Chief Economist)

Our apathy annoys the hell out of me. People do not demand better and settle for mediocrity and being screwed over. Nothing is improving as you would expect with an upturn in the economy.

Healthcare, car Insurance, ****e legal system, no housing availability, poor public transport. The country is an absolute mess for a first world country.

I sit here saying that from abroad where I can see the Sydney Harbour bridge from my apartment and have a 5 min commute to work for less than the rental price relatively speaking as living in Maynooth. Why would I bother going back to that mess.

Samuel T. Cogley

Accidental LL's and indeed some investors are exiting the market. It's only going to get worse as the CGT exemption matures. People aren't willing to enter the market as the regulation is too much in favour of the tenant. You're going to be left with people renting a 3 bed house to 15 people at the one end, and REITs in choice locations and very high rents at the other and very little inbetween.

Those (including many in the government) who wanted rid of small time landlords are getting their wish.

Keyzer

Keyzer wrote: »

..............

Taxation with respect to rental income is a total mess and is one of the main reasons why rents are so high............

I don't think it is tbh, go back 5 years and the taxation was the same but rents were on the floor.
Little demand and plenty supply
Now the opposite is true.

Taxation is viewed by many as a mess on rental income as they don't understand what's going on. Accidental landlords essentially borrowed to invest, borrowing to invest is quite often a fairly flawed concept and when it's exacerbated by the purchase price and thus the amount borrowed being artificially high then the fact that you make no profit from your investment but in time the asset will be yours is entirely reasonable. There's no total mess on the taxation side. The interest on the mortgage is tax deductible, the capital payment isn't, rightly so.

Samuel T. Cogley

Augeo wrote: »

I don't think it is tbh, go back 5 years and the taxation was the same but rents were on the floor.
Little demand and plenty supply
Now the opposite is true.

Five years ago many of us were locked in as selling was worse than taking the monthly hit. Now it's possible to sell or if you're mad enough, stay in and try to make a decent ROI despite the tax with high rents.

thomas 123

Augeo wrote: »

Of course many would quite likely want to stay at home with their 6 month old baby but not if
- their husband took their only car to work and they were going to have to walk or public transport everywhere until he came home
- they could have no/very few weekends away or a decent annual foreign holiday
- they had little disposable income after the essentials were bought
- only eating out a handful of times a year

You forgot to add:

Cant afford to save at all - let alone for a rainy day.
Cant afford to contribute to a pension.
Probably cant put money aside for their children.
Cant afford health insurance.

Im all for having a tight belt and saving, but any person on less than 35K a year entering this rental market will find very little financial comfort if they are supporting their partner and kids.

thomas 123

thomas 123 wrote: »

............

Im all for having a tight belt and saving, but any person on less than 35K a year entering this rental market will find very little financial comfort if they are supporting their partner and kids.

The minimum wage for an Experienced adult worker is €9.55, for a 39 hour week that's €19367.4/annum.

I don't think it's feasible to support a family on 1.8 times the minimum wage tbh.

I know a few single income households but they'd be not Dublin based and the income would be €60k+ / 3+ times the minimum wage.

Notorious

thomas 123 wrote: »

Im all for having a tight belt and saving, but any person on less than 35K a year entering this rental market will find very little financial comfort if they are supporting their partner and kids.

I’d say that for someone on €35k, it would be impossible to rent and support a family. I’m currently on about €40k, I’ve nobody to support, and I’m renting in Dublin. The apartment is nothing too flash, just an average place. After putting a small amount to save each month, I’m penniless. Rental prices are extortionate.

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Five years ago many of us were locked in as selling was worse than taking the monthly hit. Now it's possible to sell or if you're mad enough, stay in and try to make a decent ROI despite the tax with high rents.

Again, making a ROI as well as paying off the money borrowed to "invest" is delirious.

Folk don't borrow money to invest in the stockmarket, doing so with property is somehow thought to be logical.

thomas 123

Augeo wrote: »

The minimum wage for an Experienced adult worker is €9.55, for a 39 hour week that's €19367.4/annum.

I don't think it's feasible to support a family on 1.8 times the minimum wage tbh.

I know a few single income households but they'd be not Dublin based and the income would be €60k+ / 3+ times the minimum wage.

So esentially with those figures in mind - the majority of the population of Ireland would not be able to afford a child on a single income. Going by the industrial average of 45K. (https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/this-is-the-average-full-time-wage-in-ireland-795670.html)

I of course am omitting welfare payments like child-allowance - I have no idea what they would amount to over the course of a year.

keffiyeh

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

Declare yourself homeless and you'll get a free place :pac:

* In several years.

Samuel T. Cogley

Augeo wrote: »

Again, making a ROI as well as paying off the money borrowed to "invest" is delirious.

Folk don't borrow money to invest in the stockmarket, doing so with property is somehow thought to be logical.

No it's not, plenty of businesses borrow to start up and make a profit while paying down debt. Property sit's somewhere in the middle in regards to investments, it's not as hands on as a business but neither is it hands off like a stock investment.

The fact of the matter is that people will, and should be able, to charge the market rate. Clearly an ROI above the repayment of the capital is needed for people to get involved in this 'business'. REITs charge more than simply servicing the loan and they're paying sod all tax.

thomas 123

thomas 123 wrote: »

So esentially with those figures in mind - the majority of the population of Ireland would not be able to afford a child on a single income. Going by the industrial average of 45K. ...........

Well the folk I know would be running two cars, even though they're non Dublin they'd be paying 2005/2006 size mortgages and they'd have a decent holiday a year and a comfy standard of living. They'd be largely sensible folk but they wouldn't be dressed in cheap gear or anything.

Loads of couples could and are pottering away quite nicely on €45k. They wouldn't be renting/paying a mortgage on a Dublin property though for the most part.

A single income couple on €45k will take home over €37k if they don't pay into a pension. It's not a bad return, €3k/month.

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

No it's not, plenty of businesses borrow to start up and make a profit while paying down debt. Property sit's somewhere in the middle in regards to investments, it's not as hands on as a business but neither is it hands off like a stock investment.............

Rent is unearned income, it's no where near the middle. I rented property for over a decade, it cost me about an hour a year in phone calls and keeping track of spending. I had a letting agent who charged 6% of the rental income.

A business doesn't borrow 20/30 times their expected annual turnover to start up. That's what many amateur landlords do. It's a ludicrous comparison.

Samuel T. Cogley

Augeo wrote: »

Rent is unearned income, it's no where near the middle. I rented property for over a decade, it cost me about an hour a year in phone calls and keeping track of spending. I had a letting agent who charged 6% of the rental income.

A business doesn't borrow 20/30 times their expected annual turnover to start up. That's what many amateur landlords do. It's a ludicrous comparison.

It's a moot point anyway - we've seen that people won't get involved unless they can make a profit, however small, and pay down the capital. The main barrier to that is the tax rate.


As I've said before this could be resolved over night by introducing a renters tax exemption in consert with enforced rental caps, but it would mean that tax revenue would be decimated. It's in absolutely no ones interest to stop screwing renters hance why no one is doing anything about it.

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

........


As I've said before this could be resolved over night by introducing a renters tax exemption in consert with enforced rental caps...............

A renters tax exemption would resolve what overnight?

thomas 123

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It's a moot point anyway - we've seen that people won't get involved unless they can make a profit, however small, and pay down the capital. The main barrier to that is the tax rate.


As I've said before this could be resolved over night by introducing a renters tax exemption in consert with enforced rental caps, but it would mean that tax revenue would be decimated. It's in absolutely no ones interest to stop screwing renters hance why no one is doing anything about it.

I worked in the services industry when the VAT rate was slashed in half for them, Not a single cent was passed onto staff who where paid 8.65 per hour at the time.

Id imagine the same or similar would happen if landlords where given a tax break of any description. It would still not solve the supply vs demand issue.

Samuel T. Cogley

thomas 123 wrote: »

I worked in the services industry when the VAT rate was slashed in half for them, Not a single cent was passed onto staff who where paid 8.65 per hour at the time.

Id imagine the same or similar would happen if landlords where given a tax break of any description. It would still not solve the supply vs demand issue.

Don't give it to the LLs, you enforce caps and give it to the renter directly. You're absolutely right anything given to the LL will not be passed on and if caps aren't enforced even if it was given to renters rents would just increase.

Mrnew

Augeo wrote: »

There was no minimum wage in the 80s.
But I'm sure there are household s on 40k/annum wage incomes managing away nicely today (outside of Dublin etc) with a car & mortgage etc.

my wife and I earn a little over 40k a year between us and that has to pay crazy rent prices and support childcare costs too. We cant move out of Dublin as the job opportunities are next to none in our career paths without taking more of a pay cut. So living in Dublin and struggling away and never been able to save is our only option.

The new thing seems to be moving home with parents to save for a deposit, even with your partner and children if any. I know of people late 20s early 30s moving home if possible to save for a deposit. My parents never did this and unfortunately I cant because they don't live in Dublin. I do agree with a lot of the posts in here the rich keep getting richer and then people who scrounge off the government are looked after so much better than middle class hard working people. boils my blood

KevinCavan

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Our apathy annoys the hell out of me. People do not demand better and settle for mediocrity and being screwed over. Nothing is improving as you would expect with an upturn in the economy.

Healthcare, car Insurance, ****e legal system, no housing availability, poor public transport. The country is an absolute mess for a first world country.

I sit here saying that from abroad where I can see the Sydney Harbour bridge from my apartment and have a 5 min commute to work for less than the rental price relatively speaking as living in Maynooth. Why would I bother going back to that mess.

More and more are coming around to your way of thinking.