Rent

Mrnew

Mrnew wrote: »

my wife and I earn a little over 40k a year between us and that has to pay crazy rent prices and support childcare costs too. We cant move out of Dublin as the job opportunities are next to none in our career paths without taking more of a pay cut. So living in Dublin and struggling away and never been able to save is our only option. ..............

If both are working full time then it looks like both of you are either quite young or else quite late going down your chosen career paths.

Some career paths aren't pocket liners of course, on the figures you detail ye are both on slightly more than minimum wage. Sorry to break it to you but ye are some way off middle class.

Many folk sort the careers too or get a bit down that road before having kids too.

KevinCavan

Augeo wrote: »

A renters tax exemption would resolve what overnight?

Yes a decent tax break for renters would make a big difference, but the government gets used to having its hand in the till, U.S.C. is the biggest con ever and was only meant to have been a temporary measure during the “bad times.” Renters getting a few grand back in tax breaks, would make a big difference.

optogirl

Mrnew wrote: »

my wife and I earn a little over 40k a year between us and that has to pay crazy rent prices and support childcare costs too. We cant move out of Dublin as the job opportunities are next to none in our career paths without taking more of a pay cut. So living in Dublin and struggling away and never been able to save is our only option.

The new thing seems to be moving home with parents to save for a deposit, even with your partner and children if any. I know of people late 20s early 30s moving home if possible to save for a deposit. My parents never did this and unfortunately I cant because they don't live in Dublin. I do agree with a lot of the posts in here the rich keep getting richer and then people who scrounge off the government are looked after so much better than middle class hard working people. boils my blood

I'm in a very similar position. My parents live very close by but my Dad is sick and not getting better and the idea of moving in with them with 2 small kids in tow just seems unfair to everyone. Rent is increasing 4% a year & we are trying hard to save as much as possible but what started out as a goal of 20k is rapidly becoming a goal of 40k and seems utterly hopeless. Coupled with the fact that no matter how big your deposit is, you are only getting 3.5x salary - it seems we are living under the threat of being kicked out and having nowhere to go. Incredibly stressful.

KevinCavan

KevinCavan wrote: »

Yes a decent tax break for renters would make a big difference, but the government gets used to having its hand in the till, U.S.C. is the biggest con ever and was only meant to have been a temporary measure during the “bad times.” Renters getting a few grand back in tax breaks, would make a big difference.

That's a significant amount of cash. Sure we'd all love a few grand extra but I would imagine there's plenty more than renters who'd appreciate it.

KevinCavan

thomas 123 wrote: »

You forgot to add:

Cant afford to save at all - let alone for a rainy day.
Cant afford to contribute to a pension.
Probably cant put money aside for their children.
Cant afford health insurance.

Im all for having a tight belt and saving, but any person on less than 35K a year entering this rental market will find very little financial comfort if they are supporting their partner and kids.

It’s what you get into your hand that matters, a fantasy figure of just over 50k per year is just over 30k going into ur bank account after tax. You can pretend you’re on over 50k to your friends, but you don’t have over 50 for rent, bills and living expenses.

Geuze

Keyzer wrote: »

Not sure if this angle has been covered or if anyone is interested but thought I'd post it anyway.

I'm an accidental landlord. I bought a house at the worst possible time 10 years ago (my bad, not looking for a hug) and lost over 100K on it. Time moved on, things improved and we moved but I was damned if I was going to walk away with nothing. So we rented out the house.

I charge €1800 a month for a 3 bed house in Dublin 15.

After the mortgage is paid, I am left with nothing from the remaining income - absolutely nothing. All remaining money goes to the tax man.

Obviously, I'm in a better position than most given the mortgage is being chipped away every month but, other than that, I make nothing from the rental income.

Taxation with respect to rental income is a total mess and is one of the main reasons why rents are so high.

My two cents.

Note that as you repay the capital, you are increasing your net assets.

You are building up your net wealth, thanks to the high rents.

Mrnew

optogirl wrote: »

I'm in a very similar position. My parents live very close by but my Dad is sick and not getting better and the idea of moving in with them with 2 small kids in tow just seems unfair to everyone. Rent is increasing 4% a year & we are trying hard to save as much as possible but what started out as a goal of 20k is rapidly becoming a goal of 40k and seems utterly hopeless. Coupled with the fact that no matter how big your deposit is, you are only getting 3.5x salary - it seems we are living under the threat of being kicked out and having nowhere to go. Incredibly stressful.

Yes the same as us time is ticking on and every year we set a goal to save but it never happens with such crazy rent and childcare costs, I don't see how it can change without another crash. rent prices are not just going to start going down and the same goes for the ever growing house prices too. Very depressing to be working 45 hour weeks and not having anything to show for it

Geuze

Keyzer wrote: »

After the mortgage is paid, I am left with nothing from the remaining income - absolutely nothing. All remaining money goes to the tax man.

Obviously, I'm in a better position than most given the mortgage is being chipped away every month but, other than that, I make nothing from the rental income.

Taxation with respect to rental income is a total mess and is one of the main reasons why rents are so high.

My two cents.

Do not confuse a negative cashflow with positive rental profits.

You could well be earning large net rental profits, yet at the same time be cashflow negative.

Mrnew

Augeo wrote: »

If both are working full time then it looks like both of you are either quite young or else quite late going down your chosen career paths.

Some career paths aren't pocket liners of course, on the figures you detail ye are both on slightly more than minimum wage. Sorry to break it to you but ye are some way off middle class.

Many folk sort the careers too or get a bit down that road before having kids too.

so then what class are we cause we are not entitled to medical cards and still paying rent the same as a middle class person. Yes neither of our paths are high earners and I have just changed quite recently, I had a kid young should that mean I just give up and join the scroungers ?

whisky_galore

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Our apathy annoys the hell out of me. People do not demand better and settle for mediocrity and being screwed over. Nothing is improving as you would expect with an upturn in the economy.

Healthcare, car Insurance, ****e legal system, no housing availability, poor public transport. The country is an absolute mess for a first world country.

I sit here saying that from abroad where I can see the Sydney Harbour bridge from my apartment and have a 5 min commute to work for less than the rental price relatively speaking as living in Maynooth. Why would I bother going back to that mess.

The 'shur it'll be grand' mindset.

Family and sentimentality are about the only things keeping many here.

KevinCavan

Amazing that Fine Gael were thinking of giving grandparents a grand for minding their grand kids and that they have no vision at all when it comes to strapped renters?

whisky_galore

KevinCavan wrote: »

Amazing that Fine Gael were thinking of giving grandparents a grand for minding their grand kids and that they have no vision at all when it comes to strapped renters?

They thought 'free money' for the grey vote might work.

KevinCavan

I think if we are serious about rent control of any kind landlords will have to start being brought to court for shoving rents up illegally when tenants move out, or putting rents up beyond what they should be within a given pressure zone.

KevinCavan

whisky_galore wrote: »

The 'shur it'll be grand' mindset.

Family and sentimentality are about the only things keeping many here.

The winters are just awful here too. To be paying top dollar in a country where it is dull, grey, rainy and depressing for much of the year, is the worst part.

KevinCavan

We do have ourselves to blame too with our apathy, in another country there would be public outcry and violence on the streets. Here we get a few hippies to occupy an abandoned house in Dublin for a week or two, till they are moved on by the guards.

Mrnew

Mrnew wrote: »

so then what class are we cause we are not entitled to medical cards and still paying rent the same as a middle class person. Yes neither of our paths are high earners and I have just changed quite recently, I had a kid young should that mean I just give up and join the scroungers ?

There are loads of hard working folk between middle class and scroungers.
Folk working in retail and admin etc aren't middle class.

The One Doctor

KevinCavan wrote: »

The winters are just awful here too. To be paying top dollar in a country where it is dull, grey, rainy and depressing for much of the year, is the worst part.

and sweating freely for most of the year is better how? i spent quite a while in Australia and could not tolerate being wet all the time!

Mrnew

Augeo wrote: »

There are loads of hard working folk between middle class and scroungers.
Folk working in retail and admin etc aren't middle class.

so if middle class struggle to buy a house there is no hope for me at all. Lovely

Lux23

Augeo wrote: »

That didn't detail how working class folk in the 70s had multiple cars per house, foreign holidays, big TV etc etc

You didn't even read it.

whisky_galore

KevinCavan wrote: »

We do have ourselves to blame too with our apathy, in another country there would be public outcry and violence on the streets. Here we get a few hippies to occupy an abandoned house in Dublin for a week or two, till they are moved on by the guards.

Here we have sniping from the sidelines when anyone even attempts to bring the issue up.

Tbf some of the poster boys (and girls) they have used have had skeletons in the closet or used the campaign for their own ends which doesn't engender mass support.

Sonics2k

Augeo wrote: »

There was no minimum wage in the 80s.
But I'm sure there are household s on 40k/annum wage incomes managing away nicely today (outside of Dublin etc) with a car & mortgage etc.

Hang on, you think someone on 40k/annum wage can even get a mortgage these days?

My partner and I are on a combined 63k/annum wage and after a very long conversation with several banks and mortgage providers, they all calculated that based on our current spending, which limited purely bills, rent, car loan, and all that other stuff, we're like at a minimum of 15 years before we've secured the required 10% for a mortgage based on current house prices in Cork.

We don't get takeaway more than once a month, never go to the cinema and haven't had a holiday in about 5 years now.

My own mother was able to buy a house in Sheffield for a decent £18,000 in 1987. Having done a google search for that same area and approx housing prices, that same property would cost about £300,000. Even with inflation, that is an insane amount of money. The same can be said for both my aunt and uncle who bought houses in Cork in the 80's.

Sonics2k

Sonics2k wrote: »

...............

My partner and I are on a combined 63k/annum wage and after a very long conversation with several banks and mortgage providers, they all calculated that based on our current spending, which limited purely bills, rent, car loan, and all that other stuff, we're like at a minimum of 15 years before we've secured the required 10% for a mortgage based on current house prices in Cork. ...............

No personal accountability for your lack of a deposit?

If you need a bank to tell you it'll take 15 years to save a deposit and ye earn 63k there's some serious spending going on IMO.

All that other stuff is what exactly? I'm mid 30s and only recently got a vehicle on finance and I'm driving (my own car) since I was 18.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Augeo wrote: »

Again, making a ROI as well as paying off the money borrowed to "invest" is delirious.

Folk don't borrow money to invest in the stockmarket, doing so with property is somehow thought to be logical.

Because investing in the stock market can be done at small scale over time. Property requires several 100 k upfront which very few people have.

donkeyoaty0099

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Because investing in the stock market can be done at small scale over time. Property requires several 100 k upfront which very few people have.

Indeed, all the more reason not to invest in property IMO.

Sonics2k

Augeo wrote: »

No personal accountability for your lack of a deposit?

If you need a bank to tell you it'll take 15 years to save a deposit and ye earn 63k there's some serious spending going on IMO.

All that other stuff is what exactly? I'm mid 30s and only recently got a vehicle on finance and I'm driving (my own car) since I was 18.

I didn't say I had no personal accountability on this. I was hit very hard by the recession and was set back very far. Since then I have worked pretty much every single day and have saved as much as possible.

The reason for the meeting was simple, we did our calculations but wanted a second opinion from a specialist. It was free, and mostly cleared up things for us.

Basically I acted like a responsible adult.

frozenfrozen

going to view a place at 4 pm today. Well actually they are doing a 'viewing' at 4pm. So there will probably be loads of people waving cash at them in brown envelopes, but I'm going along anyway

quadrifoglio verde

Mrnew wrote: »

so then what class are we cause we are not entitled to medical cards and still paying rent the same as a middle class person. Yes neither of our paths are high earners and I have just changed quite recently, I had a kid young should that mean I just give up and join the scroungers ?

You'd both be better off on the scratcher, getting Hap and all the other benefits. Sit down and add it up. Then work out how much work is costing you.
Financially you're being hammered working.

Unfortunately you are working class. What we class as working class though don't work and never will work.

Fol20

thomas 123 wrote: »

I worked in the services industry when the VAT rate was slashed in half for them, Not a single cent was passed onto staff who where paid 8.65 per hour at the time.

Id imagine the same or similar would happen if landlords where given a tax break of any description. It would still not solve the supply vs demand issue.

It won’t resolve it overnight. It may however lure some investors into the market which will in turn increase supply thus eventually decreasing the rental cost of tenants.

Fol20

Geuze wrote: »

Do not confuse a negative cashflow with positive rental profits.

You could well be earning large net rental profits, yet at the same time be cashflow negative.

A lot of accidental ll might confuse the two alright but I wouldn’t call it “large bet rental profit” when in reality your taking a big gamble and working multiple hours a year for potentially 3-5k on paying down the principle.

Fol20

Fol20 wrote: »

It won’t resolve it overnight. It may however lure some investors into the market which will in turn increase supply thus eventually decreasing the rental cost of tenants.

Luring investors back into the market only pushes up purchase prices unless there's a drastic increase in units being completed available on the market.

Fol20

Sonics2k wrote: »

Hang on, you think someone on 40k/annum wage can even get a mortgage these days?

My partner and I are on a combined 63k/annum wage and after a very long conversation with several banks and mortgage providers, they all calculated that based on our current spending, which limited purely bills, rent, car loan, and all that other stuff, we're like at a minimum of 15 years before we've secured the required 10% for a mortgage based on current house prices in Cork.

We don't get takeaway more than once a month, never go to the cinema and haven't had a holiday in about 5 years now.

My own mother was able to buy a house in Sheffield for a decent £18,000 in 1987. Having done a google search for that same area and approx housing prices, that same property would cost about £300,000. Even with inflation, that is an insane amount of money. The same can be said for both my aunt and uncle who bought houses in Cork in the 80's.

63 combined is actually below the average industrial wage and you should be on circa 90(45k each). That along with the fact you have a car loan can impact a loan application massively. It’s all relative to what your looking for. You could get a 2 bed in cork city for circa 200k or 3/4 bed in satellite towns for the same amount which would bring you up to what you could afford if you had no other outstanding loans and the 20k deposit. People decide to get other niceties in life now such as 1k iPhones or brand new cars and if people really wanted a house like what they would have done many years ago it would mean having a beater car, no holidays, no eating out for a few years. At the end of the day it’s your own responsibility to save or spend your own money. If you look at the accommodation forum, you can see some people endured a few tough years so they could eventually get their dream home and when it pays off, all those years where your watching your friends jet off their the latest holiday was worth it.

Fol20

Augeo wrote: »

Luring investors back into the market only pushes up purchase prices unless there's a drastic increase in units being completed available on the market.

You might be right, House prices may increase but the yield would also decrease so investors will need to way up both. This page is about renting though the more supply of rental accommodation, the more likely, rent costs will decrease. It won’t decrease because landlords want it to decrease but because you can only set it at market rate and the more supply you have, it will eventually force ll to advertise for less

WoollyRedHat

Augeo wrote: »

No personal accountability for your lack of a deposit?

If you need a bank to tell you it'll take 15 years to save a deposit and ye earn 63k there's some serious spending going on IMO.

All that other stuff is what exactly? I'm mid 30s and only recently got a vehicle on finance and I'm driving (my own car) since I was 18.

Sorry just on the point of having a deposit.. what do you say to those who have to pay 50 per cent of their Salary on rent alone.? How are they supposed to even dream of making substantial contributions for a deposit?

And bear in mind, even if you had money for deposit, this alone isn't enough.

I would have enough for a property over 250k, but because I earn under 40K and with the mortgage lending dictating you can only borrow 3.5 ( 4.0 at a push) of your yearly income, it means even with a decent deposit, I still fall short of being able to afford a house in my county that isn't a run-down kip.

Consider temp house share for a while to reduce rental costs.

I don't live or work in the county I'm from. One cuts their cloth etc etc.

Also, now is a bad time to buy & an expensive time to rent....

KevinCavan

Fair play to Newstalk and Dr. Ciara Kelly, there was a segment on her show about the current property crisis. They were saying that it will take a few years for the Irish to take to the streets in protest. I’d echo what others have mentioned, the housing issue could well get Fine Gael turned out of office. Leo is totally out of touch.

BattleCorp

KevinCavan wrote: »

Fair play to Newstalk and Dr. Ciara Kelly, there was a segment on her show about the current property crisis. They were saying that it will take a few years for the Irish to take to the streets in protest. I’d echo what others have mentioned, the housing issue could well get Fine Gael turned out of office. Leo is totally out of touch.

And what will protests do for the housing crisis? The Government can't magic houses out of thin air.

optogirl

KevinCavan wrote: »

Fair play to Newstalk and Dr. Ciara Kelly, there was a segment on her show about the current property crisis. They were saying that it will take a few years for the Irish to take to the streets in protest. I’d echo what others have mentioned, the housing issue could well get Fine Gael turned out of office. Leo is totally out of touch.

There have been housing protests -I've been on them. We need more people to come on them!

Housing protests?
What is the aim of these?
Do ye want
- more social housing for those who don't work?
- cheaper rent for those who do work (tax credit etc etc)
- more affordable housing for workers?
- tax credits for landlords to encourage more folk to rent out properties?
- more private houses being built by developers?

What are ye protesting for exactly?

optogirl

Augeo wrote: »

Housing protests?
What is the aim of these?
Do ye want
- more social housing for those who don't work?
- cheaper rent for those who do work (tax credit etc etc)
- more affordable housing for workers?
- tax credits for landlords to encourage more folk to rent out properties?
- more private houses being built by developers?

What are ye protesting for exactly?

More social & affordable housing.
Better security of tenure & limits on rent increases for renters

whisky_galore

BattleCorp wrote: »

And what will protests do for the housing crisis? The Government can't magic houses out of thin air.

It's better than doing fcuk all.

The govt can magic up plenty things that also cost money when it wants to. Pay rises for themselves and their buddies etc.

optogirl

optogirl wrote: »

More social & affordable housing...........

Are you in favour of increased taxation to pay for this?
Corporation tax, income tax (all bands) and VAT increases for example.
Did you feel strongly about this back in 2011 to 2014 when house prices were lower or is it only now as you are presumably looking to buy a house that you feel the need for these protests?

whisky_galore

KevinCavan wrote: »

Fair play to Newstalk and Dr. Ciara Kelly, there was a segment on her show about the current property crisis. They were saying that it will take a few years for the Irish to take to the streets in protest. I’d echo what others have mentioned, the housing issue could well get Fine Gael turned out of office. Leo is totally out of touch.

It's those people who feel insulated from the crisis now won't be so smug in a few years with their grown up kids living under their feet.

optogirl

whisky_galore wrote: »

It's those people who feel insulated from the crisis now won't be so smug in a few years with their grown up kids living under their feet.

totally agree - have a few family members who have dismissed my whinging about rent / not being able to get a mortgage who now have kids about to start college - will be very interesting to see their attitude change when they realise that little Johnny & Mary are likely to be living at home for a looooooooooong time.

The typical Irish attitude that things never change seems very prevelant in here. High rents and high house prices shall remain indefinitely for decades.......... yes, no doubt ........

Like the folk who thought the recession would never end.......... some reckon it's still at full swing too of course.

optogirl

optogirl wrote: »

............ will be very interesting to see their attitude change when they realise that little Johnny & Mary are likely to be living at home for a looooooooooong time.

Yeah, most college graduates don't house share in their 20s etc etc.
They'll be home forever.
What did you do at college btw?

optogirl

Augeo wrote: »

Are you in favour of increased taxation to pay for this?
Corporation tax, income tax (all bands) and VAT increases for example.
Did you feel strongly about this back in 2011 to 2014 when house prices were lower or is it only now as you are presumably looking to buy a house that you feel the need for these protests?

Quite leading questions there. I have been involved in housing rights since about 2006 - I was strongly against the idea of 100% mortgages during the boom and thought it was a one way street to crisisville. I wasn't looking to buy a house until relatively recently - I thought I would happily rent forever tbh but that is becoming unsustainable in this country.

I am in favour of high taxation if the return on investment is there - I hate hearing politicians dangling carrots of cutting USC, PAYE etc when our health service is on its knees. High tax, good service is fine with me.

optogirl

Augeo wrote: »

Yeah, most college graduates don't house share in their 20s etc etc.
They'll be home forever.
What did you do at college btw?

I'm sensing some hostility here Augeo. I lived at home because it was a short commute.

optogirl

optogirl wrote: »

...........

I am in favour of high taxation if the return on investment is there - I hate hearing politicians dangling carrots of cutting USC, PAYE etc when our health service is on its knees. High tax, good service is fine with me.

Ok, so you didn't plan on buying until you realised long term renting was unsustainable in Ireland. Before that light came on what were your plans for housing yourself in retirement?

optogirl

Augeo wrote: »

Ok, so you didn't plan on buying until you realised long term renting was unsustainable in Ireland. Before that light came on what were your plans for housing yourself in retirement?

that's right yes. I didn't realise rents would go up at such a quick rate and not in line with salary increases.

I though that I could perhaps rent forever, including in old age, with pension, savings, inheritance etc. Naive? Probably.

optogirl

optogirl wrote: »

.............

I though that I could perhaps rent forever, including in old age, with pension, savings, inheritance etc. Naive? Probably.

Most definitely naive, especially as rents were on the floor during that recession thing we had recently enough, unless you were hoping the state might throw you a house.
I won't ask what your private/work pension situation is but I'm pretty sure it was never going to sustain renting private accommodation once you've finished working tbh.

Like, how many retirees do you know who rent in Ireland?

Anyway, the likes of yourself who have only recently decided they want to purchase in a time when both rents and house prices have risen and look to continue to do so, there's an element of tough luck about really IMO. Best of luck with your protests though ........... I'd sooner the tax take goes on the health service etc than bailing out folk who just decided to buy, but that's just my view.