Rent

keffiyeh

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

Declare yourself homeless and you'll get a free place :pac:

* In several years.

Samuel T. Cogley

Augeo wrote: »

Again, making a ROI as well as paying off the money borrowed to "invest" is delirious.

Folk don't borrow money to invest in the stockmarket, doing so with property is somehow thought to be logical.

No it's not, plenty of businesses borrow to start up and make a profit while paying down debt. Property sit's somewhere in the middle in regards to investments, it's not as hands on as a business but neither is it hands off like a stock investment.

The fact of the matter is that people will, and should be able, to charge the market rate. Clearly an ROI above the repayment of the capital is needed for people to get involved in this 'business'. REITs charge more than simply servicing the loan and they're paying sod all tax.

thomas 123

thomas 123 wrote: »

So esentially with those figures in mind - the majority of the population of Ireland would not be able to afford a child on a single income. Going by the industrial average of 45K. ...........

Well the folk I know would be running two cars, even though they're non Dublin they'd be paying 2005/2006 size mortgages and they'd have a decent holiday a year and a comfy standard of living. They'd be largely sensible folk but they wouldn't be dressed in cheap gear or anything.

Loads of couples could and are pottering away quite nicely on €45k. They wouldn't be renting/paying a mortgage on a Dublin property though for the most part.

A single income couple on €45k will take home over €37k if they don't pay into a pension. It's not a bad return, €3k/month.

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

No it's not, plenty of businesses borrow to start up and make a profit while paying down debt. Property sit's somewhere in the middle in regards to investments, it's not as hands on as a business but neither is it hands off like a stock investment.............

Rent is unearned income, it's no where near the middle. I rented property for over a decade, it cost me about an hour a year in phone calls and keeping track of spending. I had a letting agent who charged 6% of the rental income.

A business doesn't borrow 20/30 times their expected annual turnover to start up. That's what many amateur landlords do. It's a ludicrous comparison.

Samuel T. Cogley

Augeo wrote: »

Rent is unearned income, it's no where near the middle. I rented property for over a decade, it cost me about an hour a year in phone calls and keeping track of spending. I had a letting agent who charged 6% of the rental income.

A business doesn't borrow 20/30 times their expected annual turnover to start up. That's what many amateur landlords do. It's a ludicrous comparison.

It's a moot point anyway - we've seen that people won't get involved unless they can make a profit, however small, and pay down the capital. The main barrier to that is the tax rate.


As I've said before this could be resolved over night by introducing a renters tax exemption in consert with enforced rental caps, but it would mean that tax revenue would be decimated. It's in absolutely no ones interest to stop screwing renters hance why no one is doing anything about it.

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

........


As I've said before this could be resolved over night by introducing a renters tax exemption in consert with enforced rental caps...............

A renters tax exemption would resolve what overnight?

thomas 123

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It's a moot point anyway - we've seen that people won't get involved unless they can make a profit, however small, and pay down the capital. The main barrier to that is the tax rate.


As I've said before this could be resolved over night by introducing a renters tax exemption in consert with enforced rental caps, but it would mean that tax revenue would be decimated. It's in absolutely no ones interest to stop screwing renters hance why no one is doing anything about it.

I worked in the services industry when the VAT rate was slashed in half for them, Not a single cent was passed onto staff who where paid 8.65 per hour at the time.

Id imagine the same or similar would happen if landlords where given a tax break of any description. It would still not solve the supply vs demand issue.

Samuel T. Cogley

thomas 123 wrote: »

I worked in the services industry when the VAT rate was slashed in half for them, Not a single cent was passed onto staff who where paid 8.65 per hour at the time.

Id imagine the same or similar would happen if landlords where given a tax break of any description. It would still not solve the supply vs demand issue.

Don't give it to the LLs, you enforce caps and give it to the renter directly. You're absolutely right anything given to the LL will not be passed on and if caps aren't enforced even if it was given to renters rents would just increase.

Mrnew

Augeo wrote: »

There was no minimum wage in the 80s.
But I'm sure there are household s on 40k/annum wage incomes managing away nicely today (outside of Dublin etc) with a car & mortgage etc.

my wife and I earn a little over 40k a year between us and that has to pay crazy rent prices and support childcare costs too. We cant move out of Dublin as the job opportunities are next to none in our career paths without taking more of a pay cut. So living in Dublin and struggling away and never been able to save is our only option.

The new thing seems to be moving home with parents to save for a deposit, even with your partner and children if any. I know of people late 20s early 30s moving home if possible to save for a deposit. My parents never did this and unfortunately I cant because they don't live in Dublin. I do agree with a lot of the posts in here the rich keep getting richer and then people who scrounge off the government are looked after so much better than middle class hard working people. boils my blood

KevinCavan

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Our apathy annoys the hell out of me. People do not demand better and settle for mediocrity and being screwed over. Nothing is improving as you would expect with an upturn in the economy.

Healthcare, car Insurance, ****e legal system, no housing availability, poor public transport. The country is an absolute mess for a first world country.

I sit here saying that from abroad where I can see the Sydney Harbour bridge from my apartment and have a 5 min commute to work for less than the rental price relatively speaking as living in Maynooth. Why would I bother going back to that mess.

More and more are coming around to your way of thinking.

Mrnew

Mrnew wrote: »

my wife and I earn a little over 40k a year between us and that has to pay crazy rent prices and support childcare costs too. We cant move out of Dublin as the job opportunities are next to none in our career paths without taking more of a pay cut. So living in Dublin and struggling away and never been able to save is our only option. ..............

If both are working full time then it looks like both of you are either quite young or else quite late going down your chosen career paths.

Some career paths aren't pocket liners of course, on the figures you detail ye are both on slightly more than minimum wage. Sorry to break it to you but ye are some way off middle class.

Many folk sort the careers too or get a bit down that road before having kids too.

KevinCavan

Augeo wrote: »

A renters tax exemption would resolve what overnight?

Yes a decent tax break for renters would make a big difference, but the government gets used to having its hand in the till, U.S.C. is the biggest con ever and was only meant to have been a temporary measure during the “bad times.” Renters getting a few grand back in tax breaks, would make a big difference.

optogirl

Mrnew wrote: »

my wife and I earn a little over 40k a year between us and that has to pay crazy rent prices and support childcare costs too. We cant move out of Dublin as the job opportunities are next to none in our career paths without taking more of a pay cut. So living in Dublin and struggling away and never been able to save is our only option.

The new thing seems to be moving home with parents to save for a deposit, even with your partner and children if any. I know of people late 20s early 30s moving home if possible to save for a deposit. My parents never did this and unfortunately I cant because they don't live in Dublin. I do agree with a lot of the posts in here the rich keep getting richer and then people who scrounge off the government are looked after so much better than middle class hard working people. boils my blood

I'm in a very similar position. My parents live very close by but my Dad is sick and not getting better and the idea of moving in with them with 2 small kids in tow just seems unfair to everyone. Rent is increasing 4% a year & we are trying hard to save as much as possible but what started out as a goal of 20k is rapidly becoming a goal of 40k and seems utterly hopeless. Coupled with the fact that no matter how big your deposit is, you are only getting 3.5x salary - it seems we are living under the threat of being kicked out and having nowhere to go. Incredibly stressful.

KevinCavan

KevinCavan wrote: »

Yes a decent tax break for renters would make a big difference, but the government gets used to having its hand in the till, U.S.C. is the biggest con ever and was only meant to have been a temporary measure during the “bad times.” Renters getting a few grand back in tax breaks, would make a big difference.

That's a significant amount of cash. Sure we'd all love a few grand extra but I would imagine there's plenty more than renters who'd appreciate it.

KevinCavan

thomas 123 wrote: »

You forgot to add:

Cant afford to save at all - let alone for a rainy day.
Cant afford to contribute to a pension.
Probably cant put money aside for their children.
Cant afford health insurance.

Im all for having a tight belt and saving, but any person on less than 35K a year entering this rental market will find very little financial comfort if they are supporting their partner and kids.

It’s what you get into your hand that matters, a fantasy figure of just over 50k per year is just over 30k going into ur bank account after tax. You can pretend you’re on over 50k to your friends, but you don’t have over 50 for rent, bills and living expenses.

Geuze

Keyzer wrote: »

Not sure if this angle has been covered or if anyone is interested but thought I'd post it anyway.

I'm an accidental landlord. I bought a house at the worst possible time 10 years ago (my bad, not looking for a hug) and lost over 100K on it. Time moved on, things improved and we moved but I was damned if I was going to walk away with nothing. So we rented out the house.

I charge €1800 a month for a 3 bed house in Dublin 15.

After the mortgage is paid, I am left with nothing from the remaining income - absolutely nothing. All remaining money goes to the tax man.

Obviously, I'm in a better position than most given the mortgage is being chipped away every month but, other than that, I make nothing from the rental income.

Taxation with respect to rental income is a total mess and is one of the main reasons why rents are so high.

My two cents.

Note that as you repay the capital, you are increasing your net assets.

You are building up your net wealth, thanks to the high rents.

Mrnew

optogirl wrote: »

I'm in a very similar position. My parents live very close by but my Dad is sick and not getting better and the idea of moving in with them with 2 small kids in tow just seems unfair to everyone. Rent is increasing 4% a year & we are trying hard to save as much as possible but what started out as a goal of 20k is rapidly becoming a goal of 40k and seems utterly hopeless. Coupled with the fact that no matter how big your deposit is, you are only getting 3.5x salary - it seems we are living under the threat of being kicked out and having nowhere to go. Incredibly stressful.

Yes the same as us time is ticking on and every year we set a goal to save but it never happens with such crazy rent and childcare costs, I don't see how it can change without another crash. rent prices are not just going to start going down and the same goes for the ever growing house prices too. Very depressing to be working 45 hour weeks and not having anything to show for it

Geuze

Keyzer wrote: »

After the mortgage is paid, I am left with nothing from the remaining income - absolutely nothing. All remaining money goes to the tax man.

Obviously, I'm in a better position than most given the mortgage is being chipped away every month but, other than that, I make nothing from the rental income.

Taxation with respect to rental income is a total mess and is one of the main reasons why rents are so high.

My two cents.

Do not confuse a negative cashflow with positive rental profits.

You could well be earning large net rental profits, yet at the same time be cashflow negative.

Mrnew

Augeo wrote: »

If both are working full time then it looks like both of you are either quite young or else quite late going down your chosen career paths.

Some career paths aren't pocket liners of course, on the figures you detail ye are both on slightly more than minimum wage. Sorry to break it to you but ye are some way off middle class.

Many folk sort the careers too or get a bit down that road before having kids too.

so then what class are we cause we are not entitled to medical cards and still paying rent the same as a middle class person. Yes neither of our paths are high earners and I have just changed quite recently, I had a kid young should that mean I just give up and join the scroungers ?

whisky_galore

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Our apathy annoys the hell out of me. People do not demand better and settle for mediocrity and being screwed over. Nothing is improving as you would expect with an upturn in the economy.

Healthcare, car Insurance, ****e legal system, no housing availability, poor public transport. The country is an absolute mess for a first world country.

I sit here saying that from abroad where I can see the Sydney Harbour bridge from my apartment and have a 5 min commute to work for less than the rental price relatively speaking as living in Maynooth. Why would I bother going back to that mess.

The 'shur it'll be grand' mindset.

Family and sentimentality are about the only things keeping many here.

KevinCavan

Amazing that Fine Gael were thinking of giving grandparents a grand for minding their grand kids and that they have no vision at all when it comes to strapped renters?

whisky_galore

KevinCavan wrote: »

Amazing that Fine Gael were thinking of giving grandparents a grand for minding their grand kids and that they have no vision at all when it comes to strapped renters?

They thought 'free money' for the grey vote might work.

KevinCavan

I think if we are serious about rent control of any kind landlords will have to start being brought to court for shoving rents up illegally when tenants move out, or putting rents up beyond what they should be within a given pressure zone.

KevinCavan

whisky_galore wrote: »

The 'shur it'll be grand' mindset.

Family and sentimentality are about the only things keeping many here.

The winters are just awful here too. To be paying top dollar in a country where it is dull, grey, rainy and depressing for much of the year, is the worst part.

KevinCavan

We do have ourselves to blame too with our apathy, in another country there would be public outcry and violence on the streets. Here we get a few hippies to occupy an abandoned house in Dublin for a week or two, till they are moved on by the guards.

Mrnew

Mrnew wrote: »

so then what class are we cause we are not entitled to medical cards and still paying rent the same as a middle class person. Yes neither of our paths are high earners and I have just changed quite recently, I had a kid young should that mean I just give up and join the scroungers ?

There are loads of hard working folk between middle class and scroungers.
Folk working in retail and admin etc aren't middle class.

The One Doctor

KevinCavan wrote: »

The winters are just awful here too. To be paying top dollar in a country where it is dull, grey, rainy and depressing for much of the year, is the worst part.

and sweating freely for most of the year is better how? i spent quite a while in Australia and could not tolerate being wet all the time!

Mrnew

Augeo wrote: »

There are loads of hard working folk between middle class and scroungers.
Folk working in retail and admin etc aren't middle class.

so if middle class struggle to buy a house there is no hope for me at all. Lovely

Lux23

Augeo wrote: »

That didn't detail how working class folk in the 70s had multiple cars per house, foreign holidays, big TV etc etc

You didn't even read it.

whisky_galore

KevinCavan wrote: »

We do have ourselves to blame too with our apathy, in another country there would be public outcry and violence on the streets. Here we get a few hippies to occupy an abandoned house in Dublin for a week or two, till they are moved on by the guards.

Here we have sniping from the sidelines when anyone even attempts to bring the issue up.

Tbf some of the poster boys (and girls) they have used have had skeletons in the closet or used the campaign for their own ends which doesn't engender mass support.