Changes in the GAA - super thread

Pogue eile

kilns wrote: »

Of course they do, the provincial championships are so lob sided its a joke now, how many games did Armagh play this year in the Ulster championship and then the qualifiers and against Div 1 teams, while how many games did Cork have to play to get into the Super 8s and who did they have to face to get there?

Luck of the draw in the qualifiers has nothing to do with the provincial system

In Ulster Armagh played Down and Cavan, Cork in Munster played Limerick and Kerry - hardly the great unbalance there that you are trying to make out!

StupidLikeAFox

I'd keep the provincials as a separate, standalone straight knockout competition, similar to an FA cup.

Tier 1, "senior" all Ireland of 16 teams, 4x4 groups then QTR final, semi final and final. Made up of division 1 and 2 teams.

Tier 2 "intermediate" all Ireland the same with division 3 and 4 teams.

Everybody gets their league campaign, minimum of 3 championship games and a shot at their provincial as well. But more importantly everyone has a predictable and even season and route to an all ireland laid out from the beginning of the season, with no bolloxing around with backdoors and convoluted championship games

Fann Linn

kilns wrote: »

Of course they do, the provincial championships are so lob sided its a joke now, how many games did Armagh play this year in the Ulster championship and then the qualifiers and against Div 1 teams, while how many games did Cork have to play to get into the Super 8s and who did they have to face to get there?

The same with Meath. Did they play anyone in the top 8 or 10 in the country, then got whacked by Dublin, scraped over the line against Clare in the qualifiers and then into the Super 8s.

Something seriously wrong alright.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

Dublin are one of the better ones at running it off.

Some counties are an awful lot worse.

They arent really to be honest. I recall them playing just a straight knockout in the past. In reality, it gives the impression that the club championship and the club players are about as wanted as a lump of dog mess on their shoe.. Getting it out of the way asap isnt the same as running it off..

As regards changes to the game, one area I think needs to be changed is how kickouts work at present. It was never really inteded to be such a big part of the game as it has become. It is just a restart of play at the end of the day. Plus it is becoming a very harsh position to play. A midfielder can kick a couple of balls away and nobody remembers all that much, but if a gk does it he gets serious heat from analysts and media.

kilns

Pogue eile wrote: »

Luck of the draw in the qualifiers has nothing to do with the provincial system

In Ulster Armagh played Down and Cavan, Cork in Munster played Limerick and Kerry - hardly the great unbalance there that you are trying to make out!

They both played two matches and after what stages of the qualifiers did they enter? Why should Cork get an easier route into the qualifiers just because of geography

The Lost Sheep

kilns wrote: »

Of course they do, the provincial championships are so lob sided its a joke now, how many games did Armagh play this year in the Ulster championship and then the qualifiers and against Div 1 teams, while how many games did Cork have to play to get into the Super 8s and who did they have to face to get there?

you dont have to remove the provincial championships though. Keep them straight knockout no replays extra time and result decided on the day. Separate all Ireland championship and give provincial championships a seeded place in that group stage as reward for winning. Change how leaguebis completed right before championship even starts.

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

I'd keep the provincials as a separate, standalone straight knockout competition, similar to an FA cup.

Tier 1, "senior" all Ireland of 16 teams, 4x4 groups then QTR final, semi final and final. Made up of division 1 and 2 teams.

Tier 2 "intermediate" all Ireland the same with division 3 and 4 teams.

Everybody gets their league campaign, minimum of 3 championship games and a shot at their provincial as well. But more importantly everyone has a predictable and even season and route to an all ireland laid out from the beginning of the season, with no bolloxing around with backdoors and convoluted championship games

biggest problem is counties play most of their games in a year by end of March which is ridiculous.

threeball

I'd like to see the back pass to the goal keeper restricted. If you back pass to a goalkeeper they should then have to kick it pass the 45. It would reward a team that presses up and prevent the easy get out of passing back and forth with the goalie.

RoyalCelt

kilns wrote: »

The provincial championships are not fit for purpose anymore until they are scrapped nothing will be fundamentally solved.

People moan about the Leinster championship but the Munster championship has always been a joke with Kerry getting just as easy a ride as Dublin through it.

Leinster is a brilliant competition without Dublin. If Galway could be moved from Connaught in hurling Dublin moving in football is possible.

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

They arent really to be honest. I recall them playing just a straight knockout in the past. In reality, it gives the impression that the club championship and the club players are about as wanted as a lump of dog mess on their shoe.. Getting it out of the way asap isnt the same as running it off..

As regards changes to the game, one area I think needs to be changed is how kickouts work at present. It was never really inteded to be such a big part of the game as it has become. It is just a restart of play at the end of the day. Plus it is becoming a very harsh position to play. A midfielder can kick a couple of balls away and nobody remembers all that much, but if a gk does it he gets serious heat from analysts and media.

Given your vast knowledge of the Dublin club scene, perhaps you might elaborate? Obviously, there is some substance to what you are saying so you will be prepared to expand on it.

As for your kickout problem, David Clarke is among the worst goalkeepers in the country when it comes to kickouts - not surprising you see this as the problem. Blatant agenda there.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

Given your vast knowledge of the Dublin club scene, perhaps you might elaborate? Obviously, there is some substance to what you are saying so you will be prepared to expand on it.

As for your kickout problem, David Clarke is among the worst goalkeepers in the country when it comes to kickouts - not surprising you see this as the problem. Blatant agenda there.

I just did elaborate. They played it as a on game knockout in the past, which was basically saying, how can we get this out of the way as quickly as possible...

Re the kickouts, I could say you have an agenda with cluxton. Its not the truth though, well for me anyway although it probably is for yourself. Objectively looking at the thing, there is too much riding on the kickouts in general. We have a situation now where you can be very average at every goalkeeping duty bar kickouts and be classed as one of the best goalkeepers around, or exceptional in almost every aspect bar kickouts, and be under pressure for your place. That doesnt reflect a healthy situation for goalkeepers, there should be more balance there.
At the end of the day, kickouts are set pieces. We need to decide if we want a game which is dominated or even defined by set pieces, or if we want a game that flows back and forth with open play, with restarts in play being just that rather than game defining moments.
Similarly, id be of the opinion that the game should revolve around the ethos of teams creating scores with attractive attacking play rather than trying to force a mistake down near the opposition goals. While that still should be a bone fida option, at present the reward for it is probably too great.

ArielAtom

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I just did elaborate. They played it as a on game knockout in the past, which was basically saying, how can we get this out of the way as quickly as possible...

Re the kickouts, I could say you have an agenda with cluxton. Its not the truth though, well for me anyway although it probably is for yourself. Objectively looking at the thing, there is too much riding on the kickouts in general. We have a situation now where you can be very average at every goalkeeping duty bar kickouts and be classed as one of the best goalkeepers around, or exceptional in almost every aspect bar kickouts, and be under pressure for your place. That doesnt reflect a healthy situation for goalkeepers, there should be more balance there.
At the end of the day, kickouts are set pieces. We need to decide if we want a game which is dominated or even defined by set pieces, or if we want a game that flows back and forth with open play, with restarts in play being just that rather than game defining moments.
Similarly, id be of the opinion that the game should revolve around the ethos of teams creating scores with attractive attacking play rather than trying to force a mistake down near the opposition goals. While that still should be a bone fida option, at present the reward for it is probably too great.

But you did'nt, you stated that in the past they ran it off. I am for constructive ideas not statements about what Dublin did in the past. I asked what other counties did. Just looking to see see what way they do it and how it works out. I know the way Dublin works, so lets not turn this into, well you know what.

If anyone would like to give details on thier county set up I would appreciate it.

Thanks & Regards,
AA.

dunnerc

threeball wrote: »

I'd like to see the back pass to the goal keeper restricted. If you back pass to a goalkeeper they should then have to kick it pass the 45. It would reward a team that presses up and prevent the easy get out of passing back and forth with the goalie.

Agreed I think this would work really well .

ArielAtom

threeball wrote: »

I'd like to see the back pass to the goal keeper restricted. If you back pass to a goalkeeper they should then have to kick it pass the 45. It would reward a team that presses up and prevent the easy get out of passing back and forth with the goalie.

The great thing about this is the ease at which it could be reffed. It's not like some of the suggestions that have been ill thought out. Great idea.

Beechwoodspark

ArielAtom wrote: »

The great thing about this is the ease at which it could be reffed. It's not like some of the suggestions that have been ill thought out. Great idea.

I agree on this one. Good idea. Would promote positive attacking play. And also encouraging fielding skills when ball kicked out to at least 45

MayoAreMagic

ArielAtom wrote: »

But you did'nt, you stated that in the past they ran it off. I am for constructive ideas not statements about what Dublin did in the past. I asked what other counties did. Just looking to see see what way they do it and how it works out. I know the way Dublin works, so lets not turn this into, well you know what.

If anyone would like to give details on thier county set up I would appreciate it.

Thanks & Regards,
AA.

But I wasnt responding to you...
At least you accept that this is in fact what Dublin have done in the past. Maybe tell your mate blanch before he comes back and pretends it never happened, again...

Mayo set out a schedule at the start of the year and try to stick to it. The qualifiers and super 8s kinda upset that though which is understandable. At present they are just playing games when they can. Not much else they can do to be fair to them.

ArielAtom

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But I wasnt responding to you...
At least you accept that this is in fact what Dublin have done in the past. Maybe tell your mate blanch before he comes back and pretends it never happened, again...

Mayo set out a schedule at the start of the year and try to stick to it. The qualifiers and super 8s kinda upset that though which is understandable. At present they are just playing games when they can. Not much else they can do to be fair to them.

Sorry about that,I did pose the original question on structures in each county. Lets not get confrontational, we've a love in going here now, even Beech, Three and myself agreeing on something!!!!!!!!!!!!

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I just did elaborate. They played it as a on game knockout in the past, which was basically saying, how can we get this out of the way as quickly as possible...

Re the kickouts, I could say you have an agenda with cluxton. Its not the truth though, well for me anyway although it probably is for yourself. Objectively looking at the thing, there is too much riding on the kickouts in general. We have a situation now where you can be very average at every goalkeeping duty bar kickouts and be classed as one of the best goalkeepers around, or exceptional in almost every aspect bar kickouts, and be under pressure for your place. That doesnt reflect a healthy situation for goalkeepers, there should be more balance there.
At the end of the day, kickouts are set pieces. We need to decide if we want a game which is dominated or even defined by set pieces, or if we want a game that flows back and forth with open play, with restarts in play being just that rather than game defining moments.
Similarly, id be of the opinion that the game should revolve around the ethos of teams creating scores with attractive attacking play rather than trying to force a mistake down near the opposition goals. While that still should be a bone fida option, at present the reward for it is probably too great.

Every county played their county championship on a straight knockout basis in the past. Why single Dublin out unless you have a deep-rooted prejudice?

Your position on kickouts demonstrates a lack of understanding of the modern game of football. Get the kickouts right and the goalkeeper has less saves to make. Calling kickouts set-pieces is also a misnomer. The best goalkeepers take far less time now over kickouts than at any time in the past. Cluxton has the ball out in less than five seconds most of the time, the ultimate definition of a restart being just a restart. It is only the goalkeepers that balloon the ball up in the air for 40 metres that take the time to allow their own team to reset.

There is far more skill in what Cluxton and Patton do than any shot-stopping expertise. Getting the ball out quickly to your own team-mate before the opposition have time to set their defence is the best way to create scores with attractive attacking play.

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But I wasnt responding to you...
At least you accept that this is in fact what Dublin have done in the past. Maybe tell your mate blanch before he comes back and pretends it never happened, again...

Mayo set out a schedule at the start of the year and try to stick to it. The qualifiers and super 8s kinda upset that though which is understandable. At present they are just playing games when they can. Not much else they can do to be fair to them.

From 2017:

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/galway-club-hurlers-given-short-notice-championship-fixtures-postponed-121590


"This isn't the first time that club fixture schedules have come under criticism with Mayo GAA announcing that the third round of their football championship will not take place until the senior county team exit the All-Ireland Championship."

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/mayo-club-championship-draw-perfectly-captures-gaa-fixtures-farce-needs-stop-114356


"Club footballers in Mayo discovered, last night, that their championship season will begin on the weekend on May 6 and 7. The second round ties will take place on June 17 and 18.

The third round.... let's not get ahead of ourselves."


Comical Ali stuff.


Edit:


From 2016: The Mayo GAA Board and the Senior team management issued a joint statement around 11.30pm last night (Tuesday). In it, they stated that following Sunday’s All-Ireland semi-final victory over Tipperary, they decided to postpone all the senior club games and the intermediate club games involving Mayo players.

http://www.mayonews.ie/news/28443-mayo-club-games-postponed-ahead-of-all-ireland

From 2015:

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=21939:mayo-gaa-chairman-defends-decision-to-postpone-club-matches&catid=14&Itemid=100008

"THE decision to pull last weekend’s matches in the top three divisions of the Mayo Senior League, as well as postpone the first round of the Mayo Club Championship next weekend were ‘unavoidable’ but ‘unfortunate’.
That’s according to County Board Chairman, Mike Connelly, who said the decisions to call off a total of 34 matches over the two weekends was ‘something that had to be done’. "

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

Every county played their county championship on a straight knockout basis in the past. Why single Dublin out unless you have a deep-rooted prejudice?

Your position on kickouts demonstrates a lack of understanding of the modern game of football. Get the kickouts right and the goalkeeper has less saves to make. Calling kickouts set-pieces is also a misnomer. The best goalkeepers take far less time now over kickouts than at any time in the past. Cluxton has the ball out in less than five seconds most of the time, the ultimate definition of a restart being just a restart. It is only the goalkeepers that balloon the ball up in the air for 40 metres that take the time to allow their own team to reset.

There is far more skill in what Cluxton and Patton do than any shot-stopping expertise. Getting the ball out quickly to your own team-mate before the opposition have time to set their defence is the best way to create scores with attractive attacking play.

Because dublin have done it purely to get the thing out of the way. Other cou ties will struggle through it but at least it is played. Mayo have games every weekend, they have an excuse to not be able to play games. Dublins can be set in stone, yet they just fob it off. It doesnt reflect well on how they view their club players.

Re the kickouts, again yes they are set pieces. They are the equivalent of a throw in in soccer. The overall ethos of play and tactics shouldnt hinge so much on them. Rehash your point all you like, but the above is the reality

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Because dublin have done it purely to get the thing out of the way. Other cou ties will struggle through it but at least it is played. Mayo have games every weekend, they have an excuse to not be able to play games. Dublins can be set in stone, yet they just fob it off. It doesnt reflect well on how they view their club players.

Laughable that you still present Mayo as an example of how to run football championships given the hard evidence that I have presented of chaotic scheduling over three successive years.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Re the kickouts, again yes they are set pieces. They are the equivalent of a throw in in soccer. The overall ethos of play and tactics shouldnt hinge so much on them. Rehash your point all you like, but the above is the reality

In what way does the overall ethos of play and tactics hinge so much on kickouts?

Set-pieces are an important part of every ball game, from hockey to soccer to rugby. Yet, as in football, they are not everything. You watch a team like Dublin and you see a multi-faceted approach to tactics and attacking play.

From quick kick-outs and quick set-pieces, the ball is delivered early through accurate kick-passing to forwards in individual battles. When defences are relatively set, a patient passing game is employed to draw out gaps. Alternatively, the injection of pace from a half-back or midfielder is used to breach the first line and look for scoring opportunity. All of this is practiced in repeated drills.

On the opposition kickouts, the clear advantages of early possession are there to see. The vulnerability of some keepers e.g. Clarke is also plainly obvious. Why wouldn't any opposing team target such a clear weakpoint?. Mayo lose several scores every game to poor kickouts from their own goalkeeper. Teams would be mad not to target him.

ArielAtom

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I agree on this one. Good idea. Would promote positive attacking play. And also encouraging fielding skills when ball kicked out to at least 45

This is only for a ball that is in play. It will put a lot of pressure on defences and reward the pressing game of a more attack minded team. I would be interesting to trial. Some counties may not like it as the fitter the forward line the harder it will be for a defence to work a ball out. Would lead to more enforced errors and scores.

The only down side is a team that can control a game through possesion will be punished.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

Laughable that you still present Mayo as an example of how to run football championships given the hard evidence that I have presented of chaotic scheduling over three successive years.

In what way does the overall ethos of play and tactics hinge so much on kickouts?

What else can the mayo county board do when the intercounty team are playing every weekend? They cant play midweek games. What alternative can you offer?
Even with the impossible conditions, they still give club players their games. For that they deserve credit. What club player wants to train half the year for one game?

Well frankly all you have to do is look at the analysis of kickouts that goes in. It takes up a large of the entire analysis. I have no problem with intelligent kickout play, im all for it in fact. But at present there is too much revolving around it I believe, and it is at the expense of good open football. It is also very hard on goalkeepers. We seen clarke in kerry, the meath goalkeeper, the two galway goalkeepers, cluxton's meltdown against kerry. I dont think it is where we want the game to be going. At present keepers are rushing to kick the ball out so they sont have to face it. Id people put aside their own county biases it becomes clear that it isnt really fair

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

What else can the mayo county board do when the intercounty team are playing every weekend? They cant play midweek games. What alternative can you offer?
Even with the impossible conditions, they still give club players their games. For that they deserve credit. What club player wants to train half the year for one game?

Don't be putting them up as examplars then if they are continually postponing club games.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well frankly all you have to do is look at the analysis of kickouts that goes in. It takes up a large of the entire analysis. I have no problem with intelligent kickout play, im all for it in fact. But at present there is too much revolving around it I believe, and it is at the expense of good open football. It is also very hard on goalkeepers. We seen clarke in kerry, the meath goalkeeper, the two galway goalkeepers, cluxton's meltdown against kerry. I dont think it is where we want the game to be going. At present keepers are rushing to kick the ball out so they sont have to face it. It isnt really fair

It is not at the expense of good open football, attacking the opposition kickout creates the conditions for good open football.

I don't agree on meltdowns. Cluxton missed two kicks in a row against Kerry in one game but then nailed all of them in the second half, that shows the mentality needed. All of the top teams now have goalkeepers with reliable kickouts - Morgan, Patton, Ryan and Cluxton. Other lesser goalkeepers just need to up their game.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

Don't be putting them up as examplars then if they are continually postponing club games.


It is not at the expense of good open football, attacking the opposition kickout creates the conditions for good open football.

I don't agree on meltdowns. Cluxton missed two kicks in a row against Kerry in one game but then nailed all of them in the second half, that shows the mentality needed. All of the top teams now have goalkeepers with reliable kickouts - Morgan, Patton, Ryan and Cluxton. Other lesser goalkeepers just need to up their game.

Again, what else can they do? Im not saying they are perfect, far from it. Still better than what dublin are doing though, which says a lot.

Disagree all you want. It was a meltdown that gave away 2 goals, the rest is just propaganda. He was just lucky that his team is so much stronger than everyone else. My change would by to move away from the ethos where this happens. Maybe some kind of reset where teams need to have so many players in each area after a score. Something like where they kick off again after a goal in soccer.

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Again, what else can they do? Im not saying they are perfect, far from it. Still better than what dublin are doing though, which says a lot.

Disagree all you want. It was a meltdown that gave away 2 goals, the rest is just propaganda. He was just lucky that his team is so much stronger than everyone else. My change would by to move away from the ethos where this happens. Maybe some kind of reset where teams need to have so many players in each area after a score. Something like where they kick off again after a goal in soccer.

You are Colm Parkinson are the only two believers in the Cluxton meltdown.

One of the signs of a strong mentality is the ability to immediately rectify the situation. However, the clearest sign of the strongest mentality is to keep doing the right thing even when it goes wrong once or twice. Cluxton has that mentality and he showed it. Even when three kickouts in a row went wrong (and not all were his fault), he had the strong mentality to keep taking those risks and every single one of his second-half kicks were on the button. Huge huge mentality.

It is ironic that what you see as Cluxton's weakness was actually the game where he showed his greatest mental strength. No wonder he is universally acknowledged as the greatest goalkeeper to play the game.

Cluxton made mistakes and was vulnerable when young, but apart from those seven minutes in one All-Ireland semi-final, it is hard to think of a single moment when he even looked under pressure. Contrast that to someone like Clarke or the Meath goalkeeper who both looked under pressure and liable to crack every single time they took a kickout. The difference is vast.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

You are Colm Parkinson are the only two believers in the Cluxton meltdown.

One of the signs of a strong mentality is the ability to immediately rectify the situation. However, the clearest sign of the strongest mentality is to keep doing the right thing even when it goes wrong once or twice. Cluxton has that mentality and he showed it. Even when three kickouts in a row went wrong (and not all were his fault), he had the strong mentality to keep taking those risks and every single one of his second-half kicks were on the button. Huge huge mentality.

It is ironic that what you see as Cluxton's weakness was actually the game where he showed his greatest mental strength. No wonder he is universally acknowledged as the greatest goalkeeper to play the game.

Cluxton made mistakes and was vulnerable when young, but apart from those seven minutes in one All-Ireland semi-final, it is hard to think of a single moment when he even looked under pressure. Contrast that to someone like Clarke or the Meath goalkeeper who both looked under pressure and liable to crack every single time they took a kickout. The difference is vast.

Propaganda.

The reality is the narrative is defined by the result. He was 100% responsible for a 6 point wing. What saved him was that his team mates were good enough to win the game anyway.

I dont have any issue with that and I dont take joy in it either, the man is human and had a bit if a nightmare. My point is this type of thing is hard on keepers.

Pogue eile

Get a room the pair of ye ffs

threeball

ArielAtom wrote: »

This is only for a ball that is in play. It will put a lot of pressure on defences and reward the pressing game of a more attack minded team. I would be interesting to trial. Some counties may not like it as the fitter the forward line the harder it will be for a defence to work a ball out. Would lead to more enforced errors and scores.

The only down side is a team that can control a game through possesion will be punished.

I think it would add a nice dynamic as being forced to kick 45 yards under pressure makes the outcome a bit of a lottery so you could get punished fairly quickly. The goalkeeper would still have the opportunity to run it out but it can't be handed off to a player inside the 45. It would lead to some hairy moments.

I'd also like to see a rule where the ball must be dropped to the ground as soon as a foul is called. It would avoid the messing of pulling and dragging out of fellas trying to get the ball for a quick free or a lad slowing up the opposition.

Jaden

The kick past the 45 is a good idea, but I'd pity the keeper kicking it into a gale. Still, with two halves, that may balance itself out.

The ball being immediately dropped is a solid idea. Easy to police, easy to enforce, and cuts out alot of messing. Failure to drop the ball results in either a turnover of the free or an advancement of x meters. Simple, effective, and solves the issue being addressed.

threeball

Jaden wrote: »

The kick past the 45 is a good idea, but I'd pity the keeper kicking it into a gale. Still, with two halves, that may balance itself out.

The ball being immediately dropped is a solid idea. Easy to police, easy to enforce, and cuts out alot of messing. Failure to drop the ball results in either a turnover of the free or an advancement of x meters. Simple, effective, and solves the issue being addressed.

Yes, I take your point, gales could be an issue but there should be enough common sense that if a lad boots the ball as hard he can on a windy day and it drops short of 45 it wouldn't be pulled up