John Mc Cain

Galwayguy35

RIP

Seemed like a decent guy and an honest politician.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

A shame as he was the only republican to stand up to the biggest threat in the history of the US, the Russian controller traitor Donald Trump.

McCain was as much or more of a threat. Look at Libya and Syria even recently.

Annasopra

alan partridge aha wrote: »

Great man should have backed Sir Donald though.

Bollox to that. Trump treated him like dirt.

WoollyRedHat

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I'm not going to deal with all of these given the time but just a few;

Afghanistan - toppling an Islamist regime that harboured the most deadly terrorists of all time, so terrible.

Libya - why couldn't we have just stood back and let the violence unfold, I mean that worked in Syria right?

Bosnia and Kosovo - so intervening to stop a genocide was a bad thing, got it.

Ukraine - yes those famous Ukrainian neo-nazi who are so strong they didn't manage to get into parliament in the last election.


You want to make complaints about a man's policy fine; you might want to do more than just regurgitating the usual 'USA bad' tropes.

Neocons like John Mc Cain don't do humatarian policies, especially ones that joke about bombing an entire country at a public gathering. That they might have their problems doesn't mitigate the agenda. Same bull**** was used to justify likes of Iraq, look how great the regions doing now.

Arghus

elefant wrote: »

He's putting words in your mouth? Amazing!

I know...

The ironing is delicious!

Plague Maiden

ClanofLams wrote: »

The above isn’t accurate but even if it were, the man has a wife, kids, grandkids,etc - his passing is certainly a loss to them.

Have a little decency.

And they'll be reading Boards.ie will they? Don't be ridiculous. Every noteworthy death doesn't need to be bookended with condolences and RIPs. I'd rather have 1000 people speaking their mind, however innacurate, than listening to some guy in Carlow offering his sympathies to the McCain family.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I'm not going to deal with all of these given the time but just a few;

Afghanistan - toppling an Islamist regime that harboured the most deadly terrorists of all time, so terrible.

The taleban are still there. And osama bin laden wasn’t. He was hanging in a compound built by American ally Pakistan. And 18 of the hijackers were from American ally Saudi. The other was from American ally Egypt.

Libya - why couldn't we have just stood back and let the violence unfold, I mean that worked in Syria right?

The “we” is instructive here. You aren’t American. And if you were you still don’t have a fight right to invade either Libya or Syria on spurious human rights grounds. That’s a war crime without UN authorisation. Even more spurious because you are helping bomb Yemen at the same time.

And utterly stupid. This action destabilised Europe, as did the war against Assad.

Bosnia and Kosovo - so intervening to stop a genocide was a bad thing, got it.

I believe this was UN authorised so it’s ok. The US has gone crazier since 9/11.

Ukraine - yes those famous Ukrainian neo-nazi who are so strong they didn't manage to get into parliament in the last election.

They are still neo Nazis though.

You want to make complaints about a man's policy fine; you might want to do more than just regurgitating the usual 'USA bad' tropes.

Let’s not even talk about the genocide in Vietnam.

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Such an American mindset, I've no idea how it creeped into Ireland. You're saying McCain was good because he was killing Vietnamese people, and Trump is bad because he didn't?

The only Vietnam vet I respect comes back here for months every year practicing medicine for free. He has an enormous amount of guilt about what happened here and continually tries to help the country. McCain et al? "Lets' bomb more countries."

It’s extraordinary. Vietnam is now a good war.

But remember most of these guys will have seen American movies where (as frankie Boyle says) not only will Americans come over and kill your people, 20 years later they’ll come back with a film crew doing a movie about how hard the American soldiers had it.

Tipsy McSwagger

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

McCain was as much or more of a threat. Look at Libya and Syria even recently.

How is a Russian controlled draft dodging traitor less of a threat than someone who fought and did his best for his country?

Hector Bellend

thebull85 wrote: »

He went fairly quick after they stopped his treatment. RIP

Malignant brain tumours will do that to you.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

How is a Russian controlled draft dodging traitor less of a threat than someone who fought and did his best for his country?

Lol.

You guys are the flip end of the right wingers who think that they are living in the US. Firstly the Russian controlled nonsense is for children. Secondly your hero was a war criminal.


I mean FFS. draft dodging. Not only is that crap true of every single president since Clinton, gettting out of a murderous war is hardly a bad thing, even if you do it for the wrong reasons.

Nermal

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I'm not going to deal with all of these given the time but just a few;

Afghanistan - toppling an Islamist regime that harboured the most deadly terrorists of all time, so terrible.

Libya - why couldn't we have just stood back and let the violence unfold, I mean that worked in Syria right?

Bosnia and Kosovo - so intervening to stop a genocide was a bad thing, got it.

Ukraine - yes those famous Ukrainian neo-nazi who are so strong they didn't manage to get into parliament in the last election.


You want to make complaints about a man's policy fine; you might want to do more than just regurgitating the usual 'USA bad' tropes.

Afghanistan is still run by Islamists, that war achieved precisely nothing, except enriching the military-industrial complex that McCain worked on behalf of for his entire life.

In Libya 'we' absolutely could have stood back. 'We' did not stand back in Syria, 'we' armed the same Islamists who run us down in trucks in our own cities.

They are not 'USA bad' tropes, they are examples of the elite of the USA engaging in wars contrary to the interest of it's own citizenry and the West as a whole, and McCain cheerleaded every one of them.

silverharp

Nermal wrote: »

Afghanistan is still run by Islamists, that war achieved precisely nothing, except enriching the military-industrial complex that McCain worked on behalf of for his entire life.

In Libya 'we' absolutely could have stood back. 'We' did not stand back in Syria, 'we' armed the same Islamists who run us down in trucks in our own cities.

They are not 'USA bad' tropes, they are examples of the elite of the USA engaging in wars contrary to the interest of it's own citizenry and the West as a whole, and McCain cheerleaded every one of them.

the pub landlord comedian summed up the US well , "a good idea that's got out of hand" . For a country that's un-invadable , they have loosest definition of "American interests abroad" which appears to be anywhere in the world there is a mcDonalds and erm anywhere there isnt.

Captain Obvious

He will be a loss to the US right now. He was an honest and decent politician in a time when the opposite is all too common, particularly in the GOP.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

He had a good innings. I liked him though, Republican or not. Apart from when he picked Palin as his running mate. Though that did bring much LOLs in the late summer and autumn of 2008. Thanks, John! RIP.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

Such an American mindset, I've no idea how it creeped into Ireland. You're saying McCain was good because he was killing Vietnamese people, and Trump is bad because he didn't?

The only Vietnam vet I respect comes back here for months every year practicing medicine for free. He has an enormous amount of guilt about what happened here and continually tries to help the country. McCain et al? "Lets' bomb more countries."

It sickens a lot if people how wealthy Americans got their sons out of being sent to Nam, while equally reluctant less fortunate folk had no choice but to go. It’s the subject of the song ‘Fortunate Son’ by CCR. Many young American men did not want to go over to Nam and kill Vietnamese people either. And didn’t want to lose their own lives. And many did.

You’re misunderstanding the disgust about draft-dodging.

ArchXStanton

Nermal wrote: »

Afghanistan is still run by Islamists, that war achieved precisely nothing, except enriching the military-industrial complex that McCain worked on behalf of for his entire life.

In Libya 'we' absolutely could have stood back. 'We' did not stand back in Syria, 'we' armed the same Islamists who run us down in trucks in our own cities.

They are not 'USA bad' tropes, they are examples of the elite of the USA engaging in wars contrary to the interest of it's own citizenry and the West as a whole, and McCain cheerleaded every one of them.

And people here actually laud this crook,fcuked up times we live in

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Arghus wrote: »

What? What are you on about man? That's not what I said at all. Trump as a defender of Vietnamese Civilian life, that's the best one ever!

I made no claims about the morality or lack thereof of the Vietnam War. If you actually want my personal opinion on it - as opposed to inferring it based on something I didn't actually say - then I think absolutely without question it was a morally unjustifiable war that should have never happened. You missed the point of what I was saying and added on some other stuff that I never went into.

My point was that Trump had referred to McCain as a coward. Now, whatever you may think about about the rights and wrongs of the war, I think McCain endured incredible punishment as a POW for many years and many men would not have been able to survive it. Do I think his conscience as a guy who dropped bombs should be squeaky clean, of course not. But I have a basic level of respect for him because he showed himself to be a tough bastard who didn't die in a situation where it would have been easier to quit. You can respect someone for something even if you don't agree with every other facet of them or even why they are doing that something in the first place. Life isn't always black and white you know.

And please stop trying to rewrite history to make it sound as if Trump was some sort of conscientious objector to the war. My arse! He didn't want to get killed, that's all! I can't necessarily blame him for that, it's pretty understandable really! But he used his family connections to worm his way out of facing any action and, given that, he should have the grace to not call people who did actually fight - whether it was morally justified or not - and suffer, cowards.

That's what I was saying with my post. Dial the rhetoric back a bit.

Well said.

Irish Praetorian

deco nate wrote: »

Emm, hearts and Minds works best.
Tell me how it worked out for the US after they bankrolled a certain group?
Some crazy talk on here.
War is good for one thing.
Profit for your backers.
And fook the people.

Yeah that group only emerged after a certain Soviet invasion people tend to leave out. If we want to assign blame for the emergence of certain groups I would leave it there.

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Neocons like John Mc Cain don't do humatarian policies, especially ones that joke about bombing an entire country at a public gathering. That they might have their problems doesn't mitigate the agenda. Same bull**** was used to justify likes of Iraq, look how great the regions doing now.

Honestly of all these responses I'm kinda drawn to this one, I mean I wouldn't suggest anyone is acting purely in these conflicts, I just like to see a little proportionately.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The taleban are still there. And osama bin laden wasn’t. He was hanging in a compound built by American ally Pakistan. And 18 of the hijackers were from American ally Saudi. The other was from American ally Egypt.

The “we” is instructive here. You aren’t American. And if you were you still don’t have a fight right to invade either Libya or Syria on spurious human rights grounds. That’s a war crime without UN authorisation. Even more spurious because you are helping bomb Yemen at the same time.

And utterly stupid. This action destabilised Europe, as did the war against Assad.

I believe this was UN authorised so it’s ok. The US has gone crazier since 9/11.

They are still neo Nazis though.

Let’s not even talk about the genocide in Vietnam.

The Taliban are still there and they have been as much changed by the war as anyone else. Also FYI the period of the 'War' in Afghanistan has been far less bloodier in civilian and combatant casualties than the preceding period. There is also a nascent democracy in control of the other half of the country but still. I couldn't agree more about Saudi though.



We is a force of habit. I don't want to get terribly off topic but I tend to put the blame on conflicts on the factions actually fighting rather than the multiple degrees removed outsiders. If you want to blame the Syrian factions or the Yemenis or Saudis then do so, heck even blame the US when it's bombs go awry, but don't act like the entire situation is some foreign machination. I will apply this to your subsequent points too, these were not all simple US creations nor were they necessarily made worse by US intervention.

Nermal wrote: »

Afghanistan is still run by Islamists, that war achieved precisely nothing, except enriching the military-industrial complex that McCain worked on behalf of for his entire life.

In Libya 'we' absolutely could have stood back. 'We' did not stand back in Syria, 'we' armed the same Islamists who run us down in trucks in our own cities.

They are not 'USA bad' tropes, they are examples of the elite of the USA engaging in wars contrary to the interest of it's own citizenry and the West as a whole, and McCain cheerleaded every one of them.

Closer to a third, but again the Taliban has been as much changed by this war as any faction. As for the US spending too much on its military, again that's an open door with me.


Libya could have been avoided and I suspect would still be a Syria today. Syria itself was that model of non-intervention and look how it turned out; though I must dispute that 'armed the Islamists claim except in the most derivative of ways.



As to the last point, I may not entirely disagree, I would only submit it may not necessarily been a deliberate malevolence rather than a genuine belief in force of arms as a means of securing liberty; or maybe I'm just rushing to end this post.




In any case, whilst taking on four guys is normally my idea of a good night, it occurs to me I'm dragging the thread off topic. So I'll just wrap up with a RIP for John McCain and if we want to continue these discussions we can find a new thread I'm sure.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

Best what ever? I never said that. Unfortunately, your wall of text follows that theme all the way through.


McCain was in Vietnam. Trump wasn't. I don't care for the reasons because I am Irish and I don't fetishise war or have any respect for soldiers. Nor do most Irish people I know. "Draft dodging" means nothing to me and is more of a plus than a minus, regardless of the reasons. America's homeland was not under attack and Vietnam was not like WWII.

You respect soldiers, and that's something that's been imported from America. That was my point. You also seem to give him a pass on the bad things he's done because you respect how tough he is. I don't agree with that or even understand the logic.

The rest of your post is glorifying strongmen and putting words in my mouth so I won't even quote it or respond to it. I don't care about McCain enough.

You are completely missing the point.

mad muffin

ClanofLams wrote: »

The above isn’t accurate but even if it were, the man has a wife, kids, grandkids,etc - his passing is certainly a loss to them.

Have a little decency.

So did hitler…

Pa ElGrande

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

How is a Russian controlled draft dodging traitor less of a threat than someone who fought and did his best for his country?

There is no evidence that the current American president is controlled by Russia. He is not an empty suit like his most recent predecessors were and has shown a lot more action towards delivering the platform he campaigned on. This whole Russia narrative results from the fact that the Democrats and the people that backed Hillary Clinton do not want an honest evaluation of the reasons they lost to an interloper like Trump. They still don't look at that which is why they have surprises popping up in their own camp. Trump got elected as president because quite a lot of voters in the United States wanted to send a message to their federal government in Washington, absolutely nothing to do with the machinations in the Kremlin. In case you did not realise it the same trend is alive in Europe, you can see it in the UK labour party, France, Sweden, Italy, the Netherlands and Germany where a significant number of the perpetuation has voted against the establishment.


McCain used his "war hero" status to advance his political career of which he profited exceedingly well from and died a very wealthy man. During the election McCain started attacking Trump who was well able to hit back and get under McCains skin undermining the war hero on his CV. McCain was also instrumental in pushing the now discredited dossier compiled on behalf of the Clinton campaign. Trump correctly had the measure of McCain and succeeded in getting elected as president where McCain had failed the same task.


How could John McCain possibly be considered a war hero? He was not captured, imprisoned, and tortured because he was defending his native soil against invading enemy forces. McCain is a war criminal because he rained down death and destruction on the people of Vietnam during twenty-three bombing missions. It doesn’t matter if the “incident” in the Gulf of Tonkin really happened — US warships had no business being within a thousand miles of North or South Vietnam. There can be no heroism in the performance of evil. If McCain had been executed by the Vietnamese after being shot down, would he not have deserved it? What would you do to the pilot who just ejected and landed in your backyard after bombing your house? Why is it that war criminals are always non-American? If McCain is a war hero then so are the September 11th hijackers. At least they had a reason to attack the United States.


Here is a quote from an interview McCain did in 1997

WALLACE: (Voiceover) People who know McCain well say he can hold a grudge. He also has a legendary temper. But if McCain can be hard on his friends and even harder on his enemies, he can also be very hard on himself.

Sen. McCAIN: I m--made serious, serious mistakes and did things wrong when I was in prison, OK?

WALLACE: What did you do wrong in prison?

Sen. McCAIN: I wrote a confession. I was guilty of war crimes against the Vietnamese people. I intentionally bombed women and children.

WALLACE: And you did it because you were being tortured...

Sen. McCAIN: I...

WALLACE: ...and you'd reached the end of the line.

Sen. McCAIN: Yes. But I should have gone further. I should have--I--I never believed that I would--that I would break, and I did.

The truth is that what McCain wrote under duress is actually an accurate statement. The real heroes of that era were the men who refused to go to Vietnam and participate in an immoral and unjust war.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

It sickens a lot if people how wealthy Americans got their sons out of being sent to Nam, while equally reluctant less fortunate folk had no choice but to go. It’s the subject of the song ‘Fortunate Son’ by CCR. Many young American men did not want to go over to Nam and kill Vietnamese people either. And didn’t want to lose their own lives. And many did.

You’re misunderstanding the disgust about draft-dodging.

Similar disgust for Clinton?

Plenty of draft dodgers were moral. And in fact Clinton, bush and trump were not draft dodgers but got deferments.

Sal Butamol

Amazing that all the McCain fans on the one hand bring up his prisoner of war suffering in Vietnam yet on the other don't bat an eyelid at his career afterwards in which he facilitated directly the murder of thousands of innocent people in wars across the globe.

The man learned nothing in Vietnam except to harden his lust for more killing of innocent people.

He was scum.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Libya could have been avoided and I suspect would still be a Syria today. Syria itself was that model of non-intervention and look how it turned out;.

It was an example of proxy intervention by the US and how did it turn out? Mass slaughter and Isis.

How did Libya turn out after intervention. Mass murder, Isis and slavery. Oh and mass migration destabilising Europe.

How did iraq turn out. Mass murder, sectarian genocide and ethnic cleansing, and Isis.

Now that Assad is back there’s some degree of peace in Syria. However now that he’s winning he’s liable to attack using chemical weapons again. RT suggests next week.

RasTa

Pretty feckin mental that a former republican presidential candidate and senator has requested the current republican president does not attend his funeral but Obama is asked to speak

dublinman1990

I only heard the news about his death today. For all that he did in American politics; his greatest moment before he went was for exposing Trump for what he is doing as U.S. President. I still also cannot believe that his elderly mother is still alive being aged 106. May he R.I.P.

Dohnjoe

Am not really a GOP fan, but McCain had principles

I remember a woman at one of his campaign rallies expressed something about Obama being a Muslim, McCain corrected her. He had integrity, unlike many of the current shower

Kermit.de.frog

He gave good mass.

Taytoland

You can really see the people with no dignity on this thread who wouldn't know anything about war or stuff of patriots. Rest well John, a true son of America.

Zebra3

So far in the media there’s been plenty of rich white Americans giving their views on McCain.

Has anyone seen any interviews with any Vietnamese people?

Dohnjoe

Zebra3 wrote: »

So far in the media there’s been plenty of rich white Americans giving their views on McCain.

Has anyone seen any interviews with any Vietnamese people?

I saw an interview, as a nation they hold John Mccain personally responsible for the entire war on their country

Does that satisfy your twisted world view?

Franz Von Peppercorn

Taytoland wrote: »

You can really see the people with no dignity on this thread who wouldn't know anything about war or stuff of patriots. Rest well John, a true son of America.

Ah. A colonialist defends imperialism.

Taytoland

Taytoland wrote: »

You can really see the people with no dignity on this thread who wouldn't know anything about war or stuff of patriots. Rest well John, a true son of America.

The same America you've said you want to destroy the EU in a war. I might pull a Cato and just quote you everywhere so people never forget your level of politics.

EU delenda est.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I saw an interview, as a nation they hold John Mccain personally responsible for the entire war on their country

Does that satisfy your twisted world view?

What’s particularly twisted about it? He was a major figure in bombing a country which was carpet bombed and chemically bombed.

Kermit.de.frog

The communists were not some innocent actors in the Vietnam war.

Dohnjoe

Is the thread about anything American, if yes, bring up Vietnam/Iraq as a conduit to bash the country/thing/person related to the US

Rinse, repeat

Franz Von Peppercorn

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Is the thread about anything American, if yes, bring up Vietnam/Iraq as a conduit to bash the country/thing/person related to the US

Rinse, repeat

We are literally talking about a man who participated in that war.

Taytoland

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The communists were not some innocent actors in the Vietnam war.

Anyone willing to fight the reds is a friend of mine, even if flawed like McCain. Iraq war was a disaster.

brendanwalsh

Shame what he did to his first wife.

Other than that he was a man of average achievements, famous only for being a POW.

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The communists were not some innocent actors in the Vietnam war.

But it was Vietnam's war. Not America's.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Is the thread about anything American, if yes, bring up Vietnam/Iraq as a conduit to bash the country/thing/person related to the US

Rinse, repeat

He was literally a prisoner of war in one of those. Of course it's going to be brought up.

People in Vietnam are still dying because of the war and McCain was never an advocate of peace since then. If he had been, normal people like myself might look on his life and not think he was despicable.

Galwayguy35

Sal Butamol wrote: »

He was a warmonger.

He pushed hard for war in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya. He supported the arming of extremists so long as it facilitated the goals of the U.S.

He supported military intervention across Africa.

He wanted to bomb Iran and laughed and joked about it.

He backed the war in Bosnia and Kosovo, and supports arming groups with links to Bin Laden

He wanted more intervention in Ukraine, including arming Neo-Nazis that were anti-Russian

He regularly advocated confrontational policies against Russia that were nothing short of lunacy.

He wanted Trump to bomb North Korea

He also wanted confrontational approaches with China.

The man constantly pushed for war and arming dangerous groups worldwide.

His passing is no loss.

He also fought for his country and suffered torture as a POW.

Can you say you have done the same for your country?

Kermit.de.frog

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But it was Vietnam's war. Not America's.

.

It was part of the geopolitical proxy war with the Soviet Union.

Stopping the spread of communism was very much America's war. No one else was going to do it.

super_furry

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

He also fought for his country and suffered torture as a POW.

Can you say you have done the same for your country?

No because my country doesn't go around invading other countries and bombing millions for spurious reasons.

Dohnjoe

Deleted User wrote: »

normal people like myself

Yah. It's the same 5 to 10 people that feel the need to insert their views of Iraq/Vietnam war in every single thread even vaguely related to the US/Russia. They never bring up any other war in any other context, unless it's to bash their target. They aren't anti-war. They just have beef with the history an entire country, which is beyond ridiculous when you think about it.

Want to discuss a Japanese politician? no, this is the internet, you have to hear my bitter diatribe on Japanese crimes in Nanking

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Similar disgust for Clinton?

Plenty of draft dodgers were moral. And in fact Clinton, bush and trump were not draft dodgers but got deferments.

Similar disgust for Clinton? Yes, actually. Though he didn’t call anyone else a coward AFAIK.

Funny how many of these ‘moral’ dodgers had plenty of clout behind them...

zapitastas

He killed men, women and children. Says all you need to know about the man

Dohnjoe

zapitastas wrote: »

He killed men, women and children. Says all you need to know about the man

Yeah that he was a soldier. Been quite a few of them throughout history.

Kermit.de.frog

Easy to have morals when your country has no responsibility.

The western world lives and functions under the protection of the United States which takes that responsibility to defend our interests around the world.

Don't like it?

Try a world dominated by China or Russia and see how things work out for you then. They don't do democracy and this freedom lark.

Junkyard Tom

"I hate the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live" - John McCain.