AGS to allow members to wear religous and ethnic garb while on duty

RayCun

Mrsmum wrote: »

Until one day in fourth class, this little girl arrived into school wearing a hijab and told my son they could no longer be friends. I know it's a small example but I'm just making the point that it's not like the clothes are just style, there is a whole religious ideology that goes with it and that rather than the clothes might be the problem in AGS.

If the little girl arrived in school wearing a hijab but was still friends with your son, would there be a problem?

Dyr

Samuel Vimes wrote: »

Unless you're a Roman catholic eh!
Sikhism and Islam are no more Medieval than Christianity-Its not like they are asking for their call to prayer to played twice daily by the National Broadcaster, like say, The Angelus.
They are asking for limited freedom of religious expression-akin to a Garda wearing ashes on Ash Wednesday.

Limited?


Do Catholics at all times wear funny hats and carry knives because they're scared of Muslims?

Sorry folks, we're quickly learning that this sort of indulgence does us no favours in the long run. We have existing norms and rules, if people from other cultures want to ignore them then they can expect that to limit their opportunities.

Mrsmum

RayCun wrote: »

If the little girl arrived in school wearing a hijab but was still friends with your son, would there be a problem?

I think the point is their friendship wasn't a problem for our side of things with or without the hijab but the minute she put it on, it changed things for her or more likely she was forced to change her ways.

RayCun

Bambi wrote: »

We have existing norms and rules

This is such bollocks.

The norms and rules of Irish society today are very different from the norms and rules 20 years ago, 50 years ago, 100 years ago.

They will be different again in 20 years, 50 years, 100 years.

The garda recruitment process, since that's what is under discussion, has changed a lot since it started, and will change again in future.

RayCun

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think the point is their friendship wasn't a problem for our side of things with or without the hijab but the minute she put it on, it changed things for her or more likely she was forced to change her ways.

I think for some people wearing the hijab goes with certain behaviour.
But for others it doesn't.
Just like, for some people, wearing a crucifix is a visible sign that they will behave in certain ways, but for other people it isn't.

The behaviour is the problem, not the clothing.

JonnyMarbles

RayCun wrote: »

High-vis jackets are required for safety reasons on site. Not because some control freak has a thing for yellow.

Why should people be required to wear a cap instead of a turban? What purpose does it serve?

Why should they be required to wear black boots?

JonnyMarbles

Yurt! wrote: »

Hi-vis vests provide for your safety and the safety of others. If one wears (or doesn't wear) a hijab or turban, it doesn't hinder the individual's ability to police effectively, nor does it place the public at risk.


For operational reasons, Sikhs (for instance) can't at present, serve in the special forces in the UK - though I understand a kevlar turban is under development. Probably the case for mounted units too. A hijab would not hinder an individual from joining any unit within the police force.

And how does facial hair stop someone performing their duty?

People say they think the facial hair rule will be done away with now because of this. So basically, AGS have bent the knee to religions while thousands of Irish men couldn't have a small bit of stubble.

RayCun

JonnyMarbles wrote: »

Why should they be required to wear black boots?

The boots are part of the uniform for performance reasons, not because someone has a thing for black leather.

topper75

Enforced change + lack of consultation = shedload of problems

Kind of concerned that a person in the position of Drew Harris does not get this simple equation.
I had hopes for him, but this is revealing.

Samuel Vimes

Delighted the new Commissioner is modernising the AGS.
A real breath of fresh air.
Well done that man!:)

JonnyMarbles

RayCun wrote: »

The boots are part of the uniform for performance reasons, not because someone has a thing for black leather.

What performance advantage do black boots give to say, brown boots?

Edgware

JonnyMarbles wrote: »

What performance advantage do black boots give to say, brown boots?

And why do they wear blueshirts? Couldnt they wear nice pink ones to encourage Panti and the lads to join

PokeHerKing

We spent a long trying to separate church and State and now people want to close the gap again? And that's what we're meant to call progressive...?

Yurt2

JonnyMarbles wrote: »

And how does facial hair stop someone performing their duty?

People say they think the facial hair rule will be done away with now because of this. So basically, AGS have bent the knee to religions while thousands of Irish men couldn't have a small bit of stubble.

I'm in agreement with you that bearded Gardai should be allowed. I made the point earlier in thread that if it's good enough for Irish diplomats at the UN to be bearded, it's good enough for Gardai. Nothing wrong with a tidy beard.

I don't know who came up with the codes on facial hair in AGS (like I said, for some reason, taches are OK, who knows why), but it likely came from an era when being bearded was culturally conflated with being slovenly / unruly. There's also an element of command and control involved. Old-skool policing culture was like that.

I don't think AGS should be missing out on potentially good recruits because of rules concocted by some guy from the 1940s who probably thought clubbing people over the head with a truncheon constituted good policing.

If you're driven to serve, you should have the opportunity to serve. Hundreds of thousands of Sikhs defended Europe from fascism and Asia from Japanese militarism in WW2 - and we want to turn around and tell them we don't like your hats??

joe40

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It’s also common in Ireland to talk about how backward Ireland is compared to Western Europe on religion in school and hospitals etc etc etc etc etc. Well those countries who don’t have religious schools and hospitals actually have hijab bans, not just on the police.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Full-face_veils_ban_in_Europe.svg#mw-jump-to-license

That map shows "full face veil bans", not hijabs. There is a big difference.

Cordell

Isn't the assumption that minorities will prefer to be policed by their own a bit racist, as it assumes that those minorities are racist - saying that the <x people> are racist is a racist statement.

That being said, what will happen if a garda while in pursuit notices it's time for prayer? Or when they're unable to run because they're fasting (which includes water). No, there should be no provision for people that need to wear their identity/culture/religion, whatever that may be. Especially in a public serving publicly funded institution.

RayCun

JonnyMarbles wrote: »

What performance advantage do black boots give to say, brown boots?

The black boots are supplied by the gardai.

Brown boots, to the same specifications, would be equally effective, but supplying boots in two colours would be more expensive.

Is there a reason why the gardai should offer a choice of boot colour, or is this just you pretending to be stupid?

Kivaro

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I too think we should secularize the schools and hospitals but allow religious symbolism in the gardai for the first time ever.

It just goes to show how backward the country is going in order to appease liberals who want a complete dismantling of indigenous society. The liberal Fine Gael government currently in power is trying to create two societies. One for the natives and one for the recently arrived co-citizens. It will only create division and mistrust. Of course, we need diversity in our police force, but the way Fine Gael is doing it is wrong. Inclusion does not mean the display of religious preference in the uniform of those who are supposed to protect us all.

Our displeasure of this government should be expressed in the upcoming local and European elections. They should be sent a message not just because of this liberal move, but because their focus is not on the big-picture issues that affect us all in Ireland.

RayCun

Cordell wrote: »

That being said, what will happen if a garda while in pursuit notices it's time for prayer?

What happens if they are in pursuit and the Angelus starts, and they have to stop and look thoughtfully into the sky for a minute?

Edgware

RayCun wrote: »

What happens if they are in pursuit and the Angelus starts, and they have to stop and look thoughtfully into the sky for a minute?

If the Garda is a Muslim and the suspect is running in the direction of Mecca it should be all right

Cordell

RayCun wrote: »

What happens if they are in pursuit and the Angelus starts, and they have to stop and look thoughtfully into the sky for a minute?

You seem to have assumed that I was arguing against hiring people of certain religion. I wasn't.

There should be no concession on religious grounds, none whatsoever, regardless of religion.

joe40

Cordell wrote: »

Isn't the assumption that minorities will prefer to be policed by their own a bit racist, as it assumes that those minorities are racist - saying that the <x people> are racist is a racist statement.

That being said, what will happen if a garda while in pursuit notices it's time for prayer? Or when they're unable to run because they're fasting (which includes water). No, there should be no provision for people that need to wear their identity/culture/religion, whatever that may be. Especially in a public serving publicly funded institution.

The RUC for years (pre PSNI) was virtually totally composed of one section of the community in the North. So would it be sectarian to suggest this was not a great situation.
I know this was unique and not exactly the same as what we are talking about, but the idea of representative policing is a good thing and if a relatively minor thing like head dress is a barrier then I have no problem removing that barrier.

Obviously performance or standards of the individual garda should not be compromised,

RayCun

Cordell wrote: »

You seem to have assumed that I was arguing against hiring people of certain religion. I wasn't.

There should be no concession on religious grounds, none whatsoever, regardless of religion.

Only atheists allowed become gardai?

Or anybody allowed join, as long as practicing their religion doesn't interfere with the performance of their duties?

Dyr

RayCun wrote: »

This is such bollocks.

The norms and rules of Irish society today are very different from the norms and rules 20 years ago, 50 years ago, 100 years ago.

They will be different again in 20 years, 50 years, 100 years.

The garda recruitment process, since that's what is under discussion, has changed a lot since it started, and will change again in future.

Social norms will change and they will change gradually and naturally, and hopefully that change will not be a reversion to medievalism

The garda recruitment process has changed and frankly not for the better given the standard you see nowadays with recruits who couldn't restrain an unruly infant wandering around thanks to some of our previous progressive changes

Sonics2k

Bambi wrote: »

Limited?


Do Catholics at all times wear funny hats and carry knives because they're scared of Muslims?

Sorry folks, we're quickly learning that this sort of indulgence does us no favours in the long run. We have existing norms and rules, if people from other cultures want to ignore them then they can expect that to limit their opportunities.

I presume you got upset when they removed the Irish language requirement to join the Gardai?

Sure up until 1959/60 there were no women Gardai.

Hell, right now you're not allowed be a uniformed Gardai if you have a beard, which is all kinds of stupid.

joe40

Bambi wrote: »

Social norms will change and they will change gradually and naturally, and hopefully that change will not be a reversion to medievalism

The garda recruitment process has changed and frankly not for the better given the standard you see nowadays with recruits who couldn't restrain an unruly infant wandering around thanks to some of our previous progressive changes

Such as?

Cordell

RayCun wrote: »

Or anybody allowed join, as long as practicing their religion doesn't interfere with the performance of their duties?

Yes, exactly that, and it was supposed to be obvious unless you were too busy finding racism where there is none.

Wearing a visible religious symbol interferes with their duties, this is why they wear uniforms - they are law enforcement while on duty, not private individuals.

red petal

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Would it bother you what religion they are?

Yes, just like it would bother me if they all wore their football jerseys. Religion, football or any other hobby or personal belief has no place in the GDS.

Wetbench4

Bit of a joke this, religion should have nothing to do with the police force.. Everyone should wear the same uniform since everyone is equal..

JonnyMarbles

RayCun wrote: »

The black boots are supplied by the gardai.

Brown boots, to the same specifications, would be equally effective, but supplying boots in two colours would be more expensive.

Is there a reason why the gardai should offer a choice of boot colour, or is this just you pretending to be stupid?

Can you fill me in on this reasoning?