AGS to allow members to wear religous and ethnic garb while on duty

Sonics2k

Yurt! wrote: »

If turban or hijab wearing Gardai start proselytizing on the job or refusing to perform their duties you'll have my attention.

Until then I'll go off the experience of Canada/UK/NZ where thousands of turban and hijab wearers serve their communities with distinction.

Once these individuals take their oath and fulfill their duties to the best of their ability (and I bet they will) I'm not bellyaching.

It really comes down to this. So long as the Gardai involved in this still actively do their jobs and don't allow their own personal religious beliefs to directly impact their day to day duties, then I have no issue with this.

We have hundreds of Doctors and Nurses who can wear hjibs and turbans, and it doesn't impact their work. Once it does, and say they refuse to do a blood transfusion for a patient because it impacts their religious beliefs, then we have a real problem.

red petal

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So we can identify them. Do you really need that explained to you? Now tell me what difference it would make if that uniform included a hijab or a turban?

People know or assume their religion! You hardly needed that explained, did you?

To further elaborate, people promoting any sort of religion is a point for conflict and of no use to the public that they are serving.

Hope that simplifies it for you.

ohnonotgmail

red petal wrote: »

And the most identifiable uniform is one that is the same on everybody. The best way to have confidence in our force is knowing that we all have the same objective- to keep people safe and look out for their interests.

A neutral uniform does just that. There are no clash of view or beliefs and not one reason to know their personal beliefs.

The only belief that we need to know from them is that they all have the same priorities as people serving the public.

I hate to break it to you but the garda uniform already comprises several different sets of clothing that dont always look the same. You seem to take the word uniform far too literally.

ohnonotgmail

red petal wrote: »

People know or assume their religion! You hardly needed that explained, did you?

To further elaborate, people promoting any sort of religion is a point for conflict and of no use to the public that they are serving.

Hope that simplifies it for you.

Wearing a turban or a hijab is not 'promoting' religion.

red petal

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I hate to break it to you but the garda uniform already comprises several different sets of clothing that dont always look the same. You seem to take the word uniform far too literally.

I'm well aware of that. None of which requires us to know what they like to to in their spare time, practice religion, which team they support, which political party they support. It has nothing to do with their role.

ohnonotgmail

red petal wrote: »

I'm well aware of that. None of which requires us to know what they like to to in their spare time, practice religion, which team they support, which political party they support. It has nothing to do with their role.

and it also do not affect how they do their job. at all. Seems to be a case of them funny brown people again.

red petal

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I hate to break it to you but the garda uniform already comprises several different sets of clothing that dont always look the same. You seem to take the word uniform far too literally.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Wearing a turban or a hijab is not 'promoting' religion.

Yes it is.

red petal

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and it also do not affect how they do their job. at all. Seems to be a case of them funny brown people again.

Bit racist, eh?

If it has no effect on their job, why bother changing it so? Whether it's their intention or not, it does effect their job with the public presuming a list of stereotypes or judgements about them and causing unnecessary conflict.

One eyed Jack

Sonics2k wrote: »

It really comes down to this. So long as the Gardai involved in this still actively do their jobs and don't allow their own personal religious beliefs to directly impact their day to day duties, then I have no issue with this.

I think the whole point of the exercise is that an expression of their personal religious beliefs will make them more approachable and serve community relations better with people in their own communities who share their personal religious beliefs.

We have hundreds of Doctors and Nurses who can wear hjibs and turbans, and it doesn't impact their work. Once it does, and say they refuse to do a blood transfusion for a patient because it impacts their religious beliefs, then we have a real problem.

We really don’t. It’s not as though there is a shortage of doctors and nurses who the patient can be referred to. There is however, a shortage of doctors and nurses who are willing to treat patients who refuse blood transfusions.

I know the blood transfusion was just one example to make your point, but I can think of many examples where there is a shortage of doctors and nurses willing to perform certain procedures, again due to the lack of representation in the medical profession of people of different beliefs.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

It’d make u wonder do the guards even have any member who speaks Arabic.

That’s scary given the times we live in

Why would a Garda be required to speak Arabic? This is Ireland, we speak English or Irish.

ohnonotgmail

red petal wrote: »

Bit racist, eh?

If it has no effect on their job, why bother changing it so? Whether it's their intention or not, it does effect their job with the public presuming a list of stereotypes or judgements about them and causing unnecessary conflict.

if people are making judgements on people because of a piece of cloth then the problem is with the person making that judgement.

Yer Da sells Avon

RayCun wrote: »

The black boots are supplied by the gardai.

Brown boots, to the same specifications, would be equally effective, but supplying boots in two colours would be more expensive.

Is there a reason why the gardai should offer a choice of boot colour, or is this just you pretending to be stupid?

The Gardai have no choice but to supply the black boots themselves because all other boots are very, very, very, very, very dark blue.

MrFresh

Considering they aren't able to come up with an operational uniform that doesn't look like the McDonalds one, I reckon trying to introduce uniform appropriate religious items will be a disaster.

red petal

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if people are making judgements on people because of a piece of cloth then the problem is with the person making that judgement.

Sure, it's their judgement but that doesn't stop it happening. It can cause conflict, intentionally or not.

After all, you're referring to them as "funny brown people" when in fact colour and nationality has nothing to do with it. Anybody from anywhere in the world can wear "a piece of cloth", so you should probably stop pre judging.

Roger Hassenforder

Samuel Vimes wrote: »

there is a world of difference in wanting to end a specific religious ethos controlling and dominating state funded institutions and allowing freedom of religious expression for all, within limits, among those employed to deliver state services.

Ah, i see the difference! Catholic out, everything else in.

I 'd be more universal rather than selective.
Overt displays of any fantasy ideology have no place in public service, where the servants role is to serve all members of the public equally and impartially.

If someone is unwilling to serve as a police officer because they are required to remove an expression of their faith to so serve, they are placing secular/civil requirements subordinate to their religious ideology. That is their choice.
Or they could wear a turban/hijab to/from work.

Cordell

Yurt! wrote: »

Under what day-to-day policing circumstances would wearing a religious symbol negatively effect the discharge of their duties? It would have no more of an effect than if they had red hair or blue eyes.

RayCun wrote: »

How?

By personalizing their uniform, which is intended to depersonalize them.

Jayferg

Removing religion from schools and hospitals is good. Let's make our schools secular. Introduce it to AGS is seen as progressive too? Anyone else find this to be a little strange? Bit of hypocrisy there methinks

Grayson

red petal wrote: »

I disagree. Wearing a scarf instead of a cap is promotion of your beliefs and religion. Wearing a cap is neutral and doesn't indicate your beliefs or provoke a reaction from someone of a different belief.

Completely unnecessary.

It's not a promotion. Not if you're referring to it as a marketing type of promotion. That would mean that they are wearing it because they want you to become that religion. This isn't about you. It's about them and their faith.

ohnonotgmail

red petal wrote: »

Sure, it's their judgement but that doesn't stop it happening. It can cause conflict, intentionally or not.

Well then we should solve the problem where it exists by telling people not to be such ****ing idiots.

red petal wrote: »

After all, you're referring to them as "funny brown people" when in fact colour and nationality has nothing to do with it. Anybody from anywhere in the world can wear "a piece of cloth", so you should probably stop pre judging.

Clearly not a fan of sarcasm.

Grayson

red petal wrote: »

I'm well aware of that. None of which requires us to know what they like to to in their spare time, practice religion, which team they support, which political party they support. It has nothing to do with their role.

You do realise that football and politics are not the same as religion.

Roger Hassenforder

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if people are making judgements on people because of a piece of cloth then the problem is with the person making that judgement.

Or you could have regard to those forced to wear this "piece of cloth", and maybe consider alternative positions?

Some "pieces of cloth" are a barometer of the oppression of women in certain societies.

ohnonotgmail

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Or you could have regard to those forced to wear this "piece of cloth", and maybe consider alternative positions?

Some "pieces of cloth" are a barometer of the oppression of women in certain societies.

here we go again. Muslim women should not wear the hijab because other muslim women in other countries are oppressed? Is that the strenght of your argument? Is that really the best argument you can come up with?

red petal

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Well then we should solve the problem where it exists by telling people not to be such ****ing idiots.

No, we should just avoid causing an issue that we don't already have.

Clearly not a fan of sarcasm.

You're just not very good at it. It wasn't sarcasm. It was an attempt to shut me up by badly attempting to call me racist with zero basis.

One eyed Jack

Jayferg wrote: »

Removing religion from schools and hospitals is good. Let's make our schools secular. Introduce it to AGS is seen as progressive too? Anyone else find this to be a little strange? Bit of hypocrisy there methinks

I don’t imagine it’s the same people are calling for the introduction of either measure tbh, so there’s no hypocrisy in either position, just a difference in terms of what someone means when they regard something as progressive.

red petal

Grayson wrote: »

You do realise that football and politics are not the same as religion.

Yes, as much as I understand all equally have no relevance to guarding the public.

ohnonotgmail

red petal wrote: »

You're just not very good at it. It wasn't sarcasm. It was an attempt to shut me up by badly attempting to call me racist with zero basis.

Listen, you didn't get it. thats fine. Its not for everybody.

Grayson

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Ah, i see the difference! Catholic out, everything else in.

I 'd be more universal rather than selective.
Overt displays of any fantasy ideology have no place in public service, where the servants role is to serve all members of the public equally and impartially.

If someone is unwilling to serve as a police officer because they are required to remove an expression of their faith to so serve, they are placing secular/civil requirements subordinate to their religious ideology. That is their choice.
Or they could wear a turban/hijab to/from work.

No-one is suggesting we pass the patronage of schools onto another religion. Nor are they suggesting that catholics can't work in schools.

I have no problem with allowing a hijab or turban in the classroom, on a nurse or on a cop. IF it prevented any of them from doing their job I'd be against it. If a member of any religion refused to perform their duties because of their religion, they should be out. That goes for catholics too. If they don't want to provide an abortion pill, they're out. If a muslim tried to do the same, they're out too.
If any of them, christian, muslim or sikh tried to convert someone during the course of their job I'd have them out.
If their particular religious garb prevented a part of their duties, then they should remove it or leave the job.

If it's ok and doesn't interfere with their job, then they're ok to wear it as far as I'm concerned.

MrFresh

Jayferg wrote: »

Removing religion from schools and hospitals is good. Let's make our schools secular. Introduce it to AGS is seen as progressive too? Anyone else find this to be a little strange? Bit of hypocrisy there methinks

You're not really comparing like with like though are you? You're comparing organisational structure to individual employees. I've seen hundreds of Gardaí wearing ashes on Ash Wednesday in my lifetime, I've never seen a thread on Boards about it. I'm not aware of any rule preventing teachers wearing a hijab or a crucifix. Secularism isn't about forcing people to give up their religion, quite the opposite, it's about not forcing religion on people.

whisky_galore

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Why would a Garda be required to speak Arabic? This is Ireland, we speak English or Irish.

Would it not be an advantage? Monitor groups that may be here who do not converse in English or *lol* Irish?

Grayson

And btw, I'd be fine with a catholic having ash on their heads on ash wednesday. (It's the only day I can think of that catholics are required to have something that's an outward sign of their faith).

FanadMan

judeboy101 wrote:

It would if they took an oath to serve without favour. Displaying religious symbols says they favour one religion over another. Imagine the psni allowing protestant members to wear an orange sash, as its part of an orange mans ethnic identity.

Well, their knuckles dragging on the ground would be a quicker way to spot them than a sash.

PokeHerKing

MrFresh wrote:

You're not really comparing like with like though are you? You're comparing organisational structure to individual employees. I've seen hundreds of Gardaí wearing ashes on Ash Wednesday in my lifetime, I've never seen a thread on Boards about it. I'm not aware of any rule preventing teachers wearing a hijab or a crucifix. Secularism isn't about forcing people to give up their religion, quite the opposite, it's about not forcing religion on people.

The simple truth is the hijab is forced on women in Muslim countries. Its tied up with relegion to make it easier to force upon them but for the most part it's oppression and the countries way of saying "women must be covered because males cannot be expected to not rape them if they're showing skin" its the equivalent of Western society saying "don't wear a skirt, if you don't want to get raped"

And back in the day in most Western countries that was what was said. But we've thankfully matured as a society to a place where people's actions are their own and if you rape somebody it's because you're a rapist and not because of what someone was wearing.

We're now a country of inward migration, parts of the world that have not moved away from the thinking of fifty years ago are starting to migrate to Ireland for a chance of a better life. Irish societal rules and way of life should be upheld. Worship whatever sky wizard you want but fit that worship into our society. Not the other way around.

Graces7

JonnyMarbles wrote: »

I wonder are cops allowed to refuse to work on Sundays because it's a day of rest?

I'd be very interested to see if this is in the guidelines.

same as catholic doctors and nurses etc are allowed to work on Sundays and always have been.

theguzman

They are actively discriminating against Irish people now. Just shows how we have lost all sovereignty in Ireland, we are ruled by the EU Soros cabal.

Deebles McBeebles

Unreal thread. Who gives a f*ck what religion any garda is? Do ye ask them before accepting their help?

MrFresh

PokeHerKing wrote: »

The simple truth is the hijab is forced on women in Muslim countries. Its tied up with relegion to make it easier to force upon them but for the most part it's oppression and the countries way of saying "women must be covered because males cannot be expected to not rape them if they're showing skin" its the equivalent of Western society saying "don't wear a skirt, if you don't want to get raped"

And back in the day in most Western countries that was what was said. But we've thankfully matured as a society to a place where people's actions are their own and if you rape somebody it's because you're a rapist and not because of what someone was wearing.

We're now a country of inward migration, parts of the world that have not moved away from the thinking of fifty years ago are starting to migrate to Ireland for a chance of a better life. Irish societal rules and way of life should be upheld. Worship whatever sky wizard you want but fit that worship into our society. Not the other way around.

I'd argue that becoming a Garda shows more adaption of our society than not wearing a headdress. As long as they follow the law and Garda code then what's the issue?

One eyed Jack

PokeHerKing wrote: »

The simple truth is the hijab is forced on women in Muslim countries. Its tied up with relegion to make it easier to force upon them but for the most part it's oppression and the countries way of saying "women must be covered because males cannot be expected to not rape them if they're showing skin" its the equivalent of Western society saying "don't wear a skirt, if you don't want to get raped"

And back in the day in most Western countries that was what was said. But we've thankfully matured as a society to a place where people's actions are their own and if you rape somebody it's because you're a rapist and not because of what someone was wearing.

We're now a country of inward migration, parts of the world that have not moved away from the thinking of fifty years ago are starting to migrate to Ireland for a chance of a better life. Irish societal rules and way of life should be upheld. Worship whatever sky wizard you want but fit that worship into our society. Not the other way around.

You’ve even given a good explanation of how a society evolves (not that I entirely agree with your perspective), but then you contradict yourself by suggesting that society shouldn’t evolve, but that it should remain just how it appears to suit you.

I don’t think that’s how social evolution actually works, not even according to your own explanation.

Grayson

theguzman wrote: »

They are actively discriminating against Irish people now. Just shows how we have lost all sovereignty in Ireland, we are ruled by the EU Soros cabal.

is this you at home with the family?

PokeHerKing

One eyed Jack wrote:

You’ve even given a good explanation of how a society evolves (not that I entirely agree with your perspective), but then you contradict yourself by suggesting that society shouldn’t evolve, but that it should remain just how it appears to suit you.

One eyed Jack wrote:

I don’t think that’s how social evolution actually works, not even according to your own explanation.

Our society has evolved past covering women to fight against rape.

I don't think you understand the meaning of evolve.

MrFresh

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Our society has evolved past covering women to fight against rape.

I don't think you understand the meaning of evolve.

But you're still telling them how to dress. You're just banning something instead of demanding it. What's the difference?

Skylinehead

theguzman wrote: »

They are actively discriminating against Irish people now. Just shows how we have lost all sovereignty in Ireland, we are ruled by the EU Soros cabal.

The Rand Corporation, in conjunction with the saucer people, under the supervision of the reverse vampires, are helping.

We're through the looking glass here people.

PokeHerKing

MrFresh wrote:

But you're still telling them how to dress. You're just banning something instead of demanding it. What's the difference?

No there's a uniform in AGS. What part of that do you not understand?

MrFresh

PokeHerKing wrote: »

No there's a uniform in AGS. What part of that do you not understand?

There is, and it's different for men and women. If they could make changes to accommodate women why is there an issue for accommodating religions?

PokeHerKing

MrFresh wrote:

There is, and it's different for men and women. If they could make changes to accommodate women why is there an issue for accommodating religions?

So you want Irish society to accommodate the oppression of Muslim women?

Graces7

What happened to the word "ethnicity" ?

ohnonotgmail

really odd how most of the posts concentrate on the hijab and there has been little or no mention of the turban being allowed.

Cordell

My only question is that if the religion dictates that a dress should be worn at all times, will it go over or under the uniform trousers?

MrFresh

PokeHerKing wrote: »

So you want Irish society to accommodate the oppression of Muslim women?

I'd like Irish society to accommodate Muslim women.

Cordell

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

really odd how most of the posts concentrate on the hijab and there has been little or no mention of the turban being allowed.

And my only other question, is the turban going over or under the uniform hat?

MrFresh

Cordell wrote: »

And my only other question, is the turban going over or under the uniform hat?

It would be in place of.