Rise of Vegetarian/Veganism

pheasant tail

dodderangler wrote: »

So you’re against guns and against eating meat.
Wow you sound like loads of fun at a party.
Guess we can serve pigs in blankets even though it’s dead meat at least it’s gonna be warm and cosy.

Guns and eating meat means animals unnecessarily suffering and dying for our own selfish enjoyment! Animals dying when they don’t want to die.

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

As vegans we don't see the difference between cats and dogs and domesticated farm animals. Animals of all types are kept by people as pets obviously.
All animals have the capacity to show love and be pets.(And no, I wouldn't let a crocodile sit on my lap.)

This is one of the biggest issues tbh.

Veganism promotes the ultimate idea that all domestic (pets) and farmed animals will be eventually wipped of the face of the earth on the basis that they are human creations and will not be required.

Some of the pushers and thinkers behind the movement are also advocating the eradication of all meat eating wild species - in order to end 'Wild Animal Suffering' such as animals eating other animals. This idea now has mainstream acceptance. Crazy as it is imo.

PETA in the US are already practicing this policy through a programme of actively killing animals / euthanasia - whether or not an animal is being cared for or otherwise. This involves taking of peoples pets and killing them in some cases in the US.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/killing-animals-petas-open-secret_b_59e78243e4b0e60c4aa36711

pheasant tail

Gozunda, where are you getting this from about vegans wanting wild animals that eat other animals wiped out??? And that this is now widely accepted.... Wild animals, like a lion for example, will kill and eat other wild animals to survive, for food, they have no choice. That it not what veganism is about!

Thelonious Monk

pheasant tail wrote: »

Gozunda, where are you getting this from about vegans wanting wild animals that eat other animals wiped out??? And that this is now widely accepted.... Wild animals, like a lion for example, will kill and eat other wild animals to survive, for food, they have no choice. That it not what veganism is about!

I know a couple of vegans and I am not far off being one myself but I've never heard this either. Like people want to start feeding lions linda mccartney burgers instead of gazelles, lol.

dodderangler

pheasant tail wrote: »

Guns and eating meat means animals unnecessarily suffering and dying for our own selfish enjoyment! Animals dying when they don’t want to die.

Biggest load of horseshït
Animals are not like us. They don’t do emotion like us. Get over it.

gozunda

pheasant tail wrote: »

Gozunda, where are you getting this from about vegans wanting wild animals that eat other animals wiped out??? And that this is now widely accepted.... Wild animals, like a lion for example, will kill and eat other wild animals to survive, for food, they have no choice. That it not what veganism is about!

Btw I do not wish to offend anyone - but these ideas are now fairly widespread. Do a search for 'Wild Animal Suffering" to see what I'm referring to.

I've been told many times that the vegan movement is abolitionist and doesnt support animal welfare - ie all farm animals should die out / be eradicated because without animal farming these animals wouldn't exist. As for pets - see the PETA news story link above on their policy of pets being taken and killed.

I took a look into this - after coming across a couple of articles and reports. I found that the 'Wild Animal Suffering' (WAS) movement is widespread with a range of dedicated groups including academics and other supporters who are fairly vocal and bizarrely advocate for this.

These are two quotes selected from 2 advocate groups of 'WAS'

The majority of the planet's 50,000 or so vertebrate species are vegetarian. But among the minority of carnivorous species are some of the best known creatures on the planet. Should these serial killers be permitted to prey on other sentient beings indefinitely?

https://foundational-research.org/the-importance-of-wild-animal-suffering/

It's crucial that at some point the animal-rights movement moves beyond farm, laboratory, and companion animals. The scale of brutality in nature is too vast to ignore, and humans have an obligation to exercise their cosmically rare position as both intelligent and empathetic creatures to reduce suffering in the wild as much as they can.

https://www.hedweb.com/abolitionist-project/reprogramming-predators.html

One of the main advocates for this is a well known academic and vegsn activist (btw no I'm not going to name names).

And no I don't agree with any of it. Some may say its envisoning a time in the future. I'd would reply that 100 years ago no one could see the movement against agriculture. We now have govegan billboards pushing this idea "there is no right way to kill someone who wants to live". Funnily enough this idea is also used in the literature to support the eradication / re-engineering of wild predators and any species who eat meat according to the WAS movement...

gozunda

B0jangles wrote: »

I'm neither a vegetarian or a vegan but even I've noticed the crazy defensiveness/aggression some posters here have whenever the topic comes up.
Vegans and vegetarians aren't come up to you and slap the burger out of your hands; you're totally free to eat as much meat and dairy as you want. At the same time, no-one is obliged to buy your produce just because you happen to be a meat/dairy farmer. No-one owes you a living.

Really?

This in a comment in the Notre Dame Cathedral Fire thread

B0jangles wrote: »

Now I'm tempted to donate with the sole proviso that a portion of the money goes towards putting up a big plaque promoting veganism.

You might remember because I asked you in a PM - rather than derail the thread, why was there a need for that ? No answer?

Seriously what's with the 'aggression' thing you're on about? Ok let's look at what you are saying here.

Very few if any on this thread are being defensive / aggressive imo. There have been a few of the usual stupidity saying 'mmm burger' or whatever and then there has been other ****e and I've called some of this out. And funnily enough I and some others have been baraged by a small number of hafkwits because dared to be involved in this discussion and voice opinion.

Btw my interest lies in the area of food, agriculture and animals. I regularly engage in discussion - even on these subjects in the v&v forum. I don't give a fuk what anyone eats - but I'm not afraid to point out if what is said about farm animals and food is wrong. And yet some dislike anyone pointing this out. Go figure!

And again if some don't like that - tough. Theres no apology. But let's look at whose do throw **** around here! In my experience the same lot again and again and again. This type of crap ain't funny either. Online there has been an increase in attacks by extremist veg*ns. A number of individuals involved in farming and food production have even received death threats online from these eejits and imo this ****e is growing. So tell us again where the 'crazy defensiveness/aggression is coming from.

But don't give me that stupid rubbish that
"No-one owes you a living. What a stupid ignorant thing to say. No one owes you a living either but like the rest of us - everyone gets the same access to Boards - like it or not. :mad:

And just before someone makes the the usual smart alec reply with "aww de poor farmers" or the constant attacks directed at farmers and food producers in these threads - as far as I'm concerned and to anyone and everyone - If maintaining courtesy, respect, and exercising tolerance of opposing views is difficult for you, then a public forum format may not be the best fit.

Edit: I rest my case > T Monk LOLWTF! "Nuts" is right

Thelonious Monk

You sent me a message saying implying I was gay 2 days ago Gozunda because I'm posting in the same threads as you. And you're PMing other people too. And then you write all that above. You're nuts!

pheasant tail

Gozunda, I don’t have the will nor time to go reading through all that and posting links for you onto this. But in fairness, I asked you what you where on about and you answered that, fair enough. I had never heard off that and to say that that is a widespread view for many vegans is simply not true. I had never even heard off that. Comparing what we as humans are needlessly doing to animals should never be said in the same breath as what goes on in nature and is just an argument to try and justify our own actions and make ourselves feel better. Just because animals don’t share the same moral agency as us does not equate to them not having moral value and the right to life.

pheasant tail

dodderangler wrote: »

Biggest load of horseshït
Animals are not like us. They don’t do emotion like us. Get over it.

But animals do have emotions, of course they do, their sentient beings, just like us. But some with different levels of consciousness of course. But they can still feel pain..

fryup

anyone see primetime tonight with those calves getting whacked across the nose

gozunda

pheasant tail wrote: »

Gozunda, I don’t have the will nor time to go reading through all that and posting links for you onto this. But in fairness, I asked you what you where on about and you answered that, fair enough. I had never heard off that and to say that that is a widespread view for many vegans is simply not true. I had never even heard off that. Comparing what we as humans are needlessly doing to animals should never be said in the same breath as what goes on in nature and is just an argument to try and justify our own actions and make ourselves feel better. Just because animals don’t share the same moral agency as us does not equate to them not having moral value and the right to life.

No worries. It's something I've came across a fair bit tbh. Its widespread certainly. I had said the idea was promoted by "Some of the pushers and thinkers" - I do not believe all veg*ns either know of it or subscribe to it btw. But it is being seriously promoted. It struck me because of the wish to eradicate animals who eat meat/ change all wild animals into something they're not. As I said people have different beliefs and thats fair enough, but my own opinion is that all animals and humans have a lot in common. But no we're not the same. Treating and caring and protecting animals is very important imo as is good animal welfare.

What I don't support is the idea of the eradication of any species simply just because they do not share our moral beliefs or they are not wanted. That to me is too far tbh. And I do not wish to see a world with no domestic or farm animals - Imo they are as much as part of the world as we are. They are different and yes they have needs and we owe it to them to treat them as best we can imo. However I do not see that as contradictory to eating meat dairy etc and little different to animals eating other animals - it's neither good or bad. It is a part of ecology and entropy where each organism is part of the recycling of energy. That's just my 2 cents. Thanks.

dodderangler

pheasant tail wrote: »

But animals do have emotions, of course they do, their sentient beings, just like us. But some with different levels of consciousness of course. But they can still feel pain..

No they don’t. End of story. They don’t show same emotions as us.

prinzeugen

auspicious wrote: »

Eggs for example, if they are not even allowed to be labelled healthy by regulatory bodies today because of their high levels of saturated fat and especially cholesterol then I'm sure the fruit hypothesis doesn't work.

There's good anecdotal evidence of happy healthy newborn vegan babies.
The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics the worlds largest organisation of professionals holding undergraduate and advanced degrees in nutrition and dietetics and includes many many meat eaters I'm sure say a well planned and balanced vegan diet is adequate for all stages of life.

Are you still posting this fake guff? There has been cases (and prosecutions) in the UK of parents forcing a vegan diet on children. Its called wilful neglect. They were denying the kids of vital nutrients. The kids ended up in foster care.

Likewise it is now law in the UK that anyone that feeds a cat or dog a vegan diet can be done for animal cruelty.

Humans have never had a 100% vegan diet. Do it if YOU want, but please do not tell the rest of us it is the future.

markodaly

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

And people keep saying it's the vegans who are the ones acting up. From what I see it's meat eaters who have a problem with other people's diets, not vegetarians and vegans.

Not meat eaters per say, it is a subset of meat eaters, many of them farmers who get all upity when someone declares they are going to eat less or no meat.

This is the trend worldwide anyway. Diary consumption is declining and has been for decades. Meat consumption is also declining in many countries.

If you want an example of the insecurity on display, have a google on what Leo Varadkar said in relation to his own meat eating habits and the reaction of the IFA to that.
Also, remember that the IFA is one if not the most powerful lobbyist in Ireland.

As someone said, no one owes you a living and if you go out of business because your product is not as much in demand, then tough titties. That is the Free Market at work.

Ave Sodalis

I enjoy good food, regardless of whether it contains meat or not. The rise of vegetarians and vegans means that there are more delicious recipes out there. I do only use free range eggs, and I don't really eat pork.

I am being referred to a dietician, however, for a health related diet that, from a quick reading of it, is not vegetarian friendly. No beans or lentils or wheat, and a large proportion of fruit and veg are left out.

As regards to who is more annoying, I worked part time in a restaurant so I am slightly biased. Vegans and people who do not really have a food intolerance/allergy are the worst customers. Vegetarians and people who have a genuine food intolerance/allergy seem more capable of reading a menu. The latter generally only mentioned it for the sake of safety, which they absolutely should do. The former had me running in and out of the kitchen with a billion different questions, despite there being a dedicated vegan/vegetarian menu and all the allergen information was on the menus. I even had one vegan give me hell about the fact there was pasta on the dedicated menu, and no amount of pointing out that it was for both vegans and vegetarians was going to appease this person. Again though, this has made me slightly biased against vegans.

B0jangles

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You sent me a message saying implying I was gay 2 days ago Gozunda because I'm posting in the same threads as you. And you're PMing other people too. And then you write all that above. You're nuts!

You got one too?


Now I feel less special

JeffKenna

markodaly wrote: »

Not meat eaters per say, it is a subset of meat eaters, many of them farmers who get all upity when someone declares they are going to eat less or no meat.

This is the trend worldwide anyway. Diary consumption is declining and has been for decades. Meat consumption is also declining in many countries.

If you want an example of the insecurity on display, have a google on what Leo Varadkar said in relation to his own meat eating habits and the reaction of the IFA to that.
Also, remember that the IFA is one if not the most powerful lobbyist in Ireland.

As someone said, no one owes you a living and if you go out of business because your product is not as much in demand, then tough titties. That is the Free Market at work.

Are you just making up facts?

Worldwide dairy consumption is on an upward trend with continued growth expected over the next number of years.

markodaly

JeffKenna wrote: »

Are you just making up facts?

Worldwide dairy consumption is on an upward trend with continued growth expected over the next number of years.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/america-is-drowning-in-milk-nobody-wants

https://www.foxnews.com/us/dairy-farmers-hit-hard-by-declining-milk-demand

stefanovich

Fact is, we'd all be a bit healthier if we ate less dairy and meat. I know Irish farmers don't like this, and RTE seem to give them a platform, but they are interested in their own business surviving and that is all.

stefanovich

stefanovich wrote: »

Fact is, we'd all be a bit healthier if we ate less dairy and meat. I know Irish farmers don't like this, and RTE seem to give them a platform, but they are interested in their own business surviving and that is all.

As far as i know, processed meat is the real issue. The health outcomes for excessive red meat only are not that bad.

White meat and dairy have a positive effect on health.

A diet high in fish seems to be the healthiest option.

gozunda

stefanovich wrote: »

Fact is, we'd all be a bit healthier if we ate less dairy and meat. I know Irish farmers don't like this, and RTE seem to give them a platform, but they are interested in their own business surviving and that is all.

Interesting that some interests seem to be making out eating a normal diet is about "farmers". No idea why you want to attack to attack one group of people. Bit of a childish argument there no? You do know Irish farmers also grow crops? Do you support that? Or are you just against some Irish farmers?

Funny thing is that real dietry advice out there advises that dairy and meat are a healthy part of a balanced diet.

Dont know about you - but I don't need to cut back on anything - Thanks Dr stefanovich! Are you're a qualified dietician btw ? Though as far as I remember we're not supposed to give medical advice here? No matter.

Btw this isn't even information from Ireland - this from the NHS in the UK so no "platform" (sic)

Meat is a good source of protein, vitamins and minerals, including iron, zinc and B vitamins. It's also one of the main sources of vitamin B12.

Choose lean cuts of meat and skinless poultry whenever possible to cut down on fat. Always cook meat thoroughly.

Try to eat less red and processed meat like bacon, ham and sausages.

Milk and dairy foods

Milk and dairy foods, such as cheese and yoghurt, are good sources of protein. They also contain calcium, which helps keep your bones healthy.

Go for lower fat and lower sugar products where possible.

Choose semi-skimmed, 1% fat or skimmed milk, as well as lower fat hard cheeses or cottage cheese, and lower fat, lower sugar yoghurt.

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/

Tbh its very strange that some really do seem bitter against supporting Irish people and the economy. But there you go. Anyhow back to the topic ...

Heres some other good news a recent study from UCD

And it's good news for vegetarians and those eating a normal diet!

Irish study says people with highest dairy consumption have lower BMI

23-Feb-2017 By Jim Cornall

A new study looking at dairy consumption and its relationship with metabolic health has delivered some promising results

[url]HTTPS://WWW.DAIRYREPORTER.COM/ARTICLE/2017/02/23/IRISH-STUDY-SAYS-PEOPLE-WITH-HIGHEST-DAIRY-CONSUMPTION-HAVE-LOWER-BMI [/url];

stefanovich

Milk and red meat are high in saturated fat and a diet that is low in saturated fat is good for cardiovascular health. It is not much of a leap to suggest that eating less of the same can reduce your risk of cardiovascular disease.

I have seen RTE give a platform to several farmers recently where they are suggesting we eat meat and dairy every day. This is most likely bad advice.

Thelonious Monk

jh79 wrote: »

A diet high in fish seems to be the healthiest option.

Problem with that is that there's hardly any fish left. Bottom trawling has ruined Irish seas over the past 100 years or so. Humans are so thick though, we know marine life is being destroyed at an astonishing rate yet we continue to take more and more out of the sea. Some kind of European moratorium on fishing is required, but again too many vested interests for that to happen.

stefanovich

stefanovich wrote: »

Milk and red meat are high in saturated fat and a diet that is low in saturated fat is good for cardiovascular health. It is not much of a leap to suggest that eating less of the same can reduce your risk of cardiovascular disease.

I have seen RTE give a platform to several farmers recently where they are suggesting we eat meat and dairy every day. This is most likely bad advice.

According to a recent meta-analysis there is no association between red meat intake and heart disease or diabetes.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-14/eating-a-plant-based-diet-doesnt-mean-being-a-vegetarian/8710254

gozunda

stefanovich wrote: »

Milk and red meat are high in saturated fat and a diet that is low in saturated fat is good for cardiovascular health. It is not much of a leap to suggest that eating less of the same can reduce your risk of cardiovascular disease. I have seen RTE give a platform to several farmers recently where they are suggesting we eat meat and dairy every day. This is most likely bad advice.

I'll ask again are you a qualified dietician that you disagree with bodies such as the NHS in the UK? Why is that? Is the NHS giving Irish farmers a 'platform' (sic)

What have you against "farmers" exactly? This thread is about diet btw

As above dairy and meat are both recommended fodstuffs as part of a Healthy balanced diet. But you know that.

More open attacks on others diets and lifestyles - funny that .There's a bit of a pattern here tbh.

is_that_so

stefanovich wrote: »

Fact is, we'd all be a bit healthier if we ate less dairy and meat. I know Irish farmers don't like this, and RTE seem to give them a platform, but they are interested in their own business surviving and that is all.

Fact is many people would be healthier if they were more active and didn't eat so much crap. Dairy and meat offer nutrition that is not necessarily bad for you. It's how our nutrition is combined with the rest of our lifestyle decisions that really causes us problems.

Balanadan

People who advocate for vegetarianism and veganism are a threat to our society, our prosperity, our freedom, our national security, and themselves.

gozunda

markodaly wrote: »

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/america-is-drowning-in-milk-nobody-wants
https://www.foxnews.com/us/dairy-farmers-hit-hard-by-declining-milk-demand

Two American websites? Seriously? Who do you want to support? Do you want Ireland to be wholly dependent on having to buy cheap imported food from other countries with few if any ethical nor environmental standards? Why is that?

Well the good news is that the Irish econmony and that's everyone btw benefits from Irish exports.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/kerrygold-becomes-ireland-s-first-billion-euro-food-brand-1.3876158

Kerrygold becomes Ireland’s first billion euro food brand. Kerrygold has become the first Irish food brand to exceed €1 billion in annual sales, helped by its growing popularity in the United States.

Personally it's my one weakness ! I'd eat butter till it came out of my ears if I could

JeffKenna

markodaly wrote: »

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/america-is-drowning-in-milk-nobody-wants

https://www.foxnews.com/us/dairy-farmers-hit-hard-by-declining-milk-demand

You do realise that the links you quoted have are discussing the US dairy market and not the global one?

https://www.thebullvine.com/news/china-and-africa-to-lead-growth-in-global-dairy-consumption/