Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla - Mercedes EQC

Shefwedfan

Sabre Man wrote: »

Correcting Audi: Tesla Model 3 Charges Over 2 Times Faster Than Audi e-tron

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/17/correcting-audi-tesla-model-3-charges-over-2-times-faster-than-audi-e-tron/

For a person buying an Audi, 99% of them won't care....

Let's put it this way, if the Audi was faster you would never hear the Audi seller mention it.....

TCP/IP

Shefwedfan wrote: »

For a person buying an Audi, 99% of them won't care....

Let's put it this way, if the Audi was faster you would never hear the Audi seller mention it.....

Exactly that’s completely irrelevant for their target market.

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

For a person buying an Audi, 99% of them won't care....

Let's put it this way, if the Audi was faster you would never hear the Audi seller mention it.....

TCP/IP wrote: »

Exactly that’s completely irrelevant for their target market.

I dont know about that. Just because someone can afford an eTron doesnt mean they dont value their time... in fact they are probably more likely to value their time than others..... sitting at public infrastructure for an hour isnt going to go down well.

The motorway range for the eTron and EQC, for the money involved, is going to be poor and they have large batteries so charge speed is going to be very important.

Now, if the eTron was bought just to take Johnny to school then it wont matter to that owner but is that 99%?... I doubt it.

Kramer

Kevin Irving wrote: »

........the absolute number one priority is quality (ie: reliability) at all costs. It comes before absolutely everything else. No design is released until it has undergone months if not years of testing.

Boeing 737 Max?

Kevin Irving wrote: »

The big OEM's don't release a product until it's testing to the end of the earth.

Boeing 737 Max?

kirving

Kramer wrote: »

Boeing 737 Max?


Boeing 737 Max?

Anything more to add than selectively picking an example?

Anyway, the 737 MAX is exception that proves the rule. It's exceptionally rare, nigh-on unheard of for a fatal design flaw to make into a commercial airliner, and the public just don't accept that it's okay to sacrifice quality for the sake of innovation.

When a Tesla crashes on "Autopilot", their defenders are very quick to point out that the computer is still statistically safer than a human, and that innovation comes at a price. A 737 MAX 8 is safer than driving, but that doesn't wash with customers who expect more.

There are estimations online of up to two thirds of first generation Tesla powertrains being replaced, albeit under warranty. Those kinds of figures, even if heavily inflated, are completely unpalatable to established OEM's and their potential customers.

The fact is, that Tesla score consistently considerably poorer than European rivals discussed here.

It's par for the course when it comes to being an early adopter of technology, and Tesla have done incredibly well in the timeframe, and they will undoubtedly improve further as time passes.

It's exceptionally difficult to innovate and grow at the rate Tesla have done, and also maintain and proven reliable product, you can't have one or the other.

Sabre Man

https://www.autonews.com/executives/bmw-ceo-defends-record-after-first-automaking-loss-decade

Will BMW be one of the losers in the shift to EVs?

unkel

Sabre Man wrote: »

https://www.autonews.com/executives/bmw-ceo-defends-record-after-first-automaking-loss-decade

Will BMW be one of the losers in the shift to EVs?

It's not looking too good for them, what a shame, my favourite car maker of all time. They had such a good start in electrification but some muppets high up like Klaus Frölich completely stalled the progress :mad: That could turn out to be a very expensive mistake, perhaps even fatal...

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

It's not looking too good for them, what a shame, my favourite car maker of all time. They had such a good start in electrification but some muppets high up like Klaus Frölich completely stalled the progress :mad: That could turn out to be a very expensive mistake, perhaps even fatal...

They have x3 electric coming, release that and a 3 series electric and all will be good

The i3?? Really why?? It’s a good car but it’s too quirky, no back windows, 4 seats etc etc....

Sabre Man

To be fair to the i3, it's selling fairly well for such a relatively expensive car according to https://eu-evs.com/.

But BMW needs something else to compete with Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar and Tesla.

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They have x3 electric coming, release that and a 3 series electric and all will be good

The i3?? Really why?? It’s a good car but it’s too quirky, no back windows, 4 seats etc etc....

BMW were manufacturing the i3 in 2013, that's 6 years ago. They could have been mass manufacturing hundreds of thousands of 3 series / X3 EV by 2016. Tesla might not even have had a chance.

KCross

BMW's recent AGM declared that PHEV's and hybrids is their future with some EV's thrown in but they basically want to milk the ICE cow for a while longer.

Statement Harald Krüger, Chairman of the Board of Management of BMW AG 99th Annual General Meeting of BMW AG...

2019 is our year of the plug-in hybrid, with the BMW 3 Series, the X3, X5 and the 7 Series. They all come with our fourth-generation battery and electric engine technology, with an extended electric range up to 80 kilometres.

Shefwedfan

Sabre Man wrote: »

To be fair to the i3, it's selling fairly well for such a relatively expensive car according to https://eu-evs.com/.

But BMW needs something else to compete with Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar and Tesla.

BMW market is business people in reality, very few of those buyers would look at an i3

unkel

KCross wrote: »

BMW's recent AGM declared that PHEV's and hybrids is their future with some EV's thrown in but they basically want to milk the ICE cow for a while longer.

Statement Harald Krüger

Krüger is another gobsh1te as was his predecessor Reithofer.

kippy

n97 mini wrote: »

Tesla are like Apple was shortly after the release of the first iPhone. Great tech in a product competing against the established players like Nokia and Ericsson. (Where are they now?)

Roll on more than a decade and Apple still has over 15% market share, despite stiff competition from Samsung and others. Apple is still probably the most desirable phone brand.

Tesla's position is similar to Apple's and I can't see that changing any time soon.

Totally different products.

KCross

EQC Director of Development puts the EQC real world range at 260km in winter and 360km in summer.

The winter range drops because it heats the battery to ensure you get max charge speed when you arrive at the rapid.... same as Tesla's do.

Sabre Man

KCross wrote: »

EQC Director of Development puts the EQC real world range at 260km in winter and 360km in summer.

The winter range drops because it heats the battery to ensure you get max charge speed when you arrive at the rapid.... same as Tesla's do.

At what speeds?

Old diesel

Have to give Merc credit for giving a winter range figure

KCross

Sabre Man wrote: »

At what speeds?

I took it to mean motorway speed. He seemed to be giving real world ranges but hard to say exactly what speed he was referring to.

Cork-Dublin could be tight in winter.

Old diesel wrote: »

Have to give Merc credit for giving a winter range figure

For sure. I wonder why they dont have WLTP figures out. He only quoted NEDC and then spoke off the cuff about real world ranges. A WLTP figure would be good to have a reference to other cars.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

I wonder why they dont have WLTP figures out.

They do

It's 259 miles / 417km

KCross

unkel wrote: »

They do

It's 259 miles / 417km

I thought WLTP was close to reality... 417km vs 260km in winter is a big spread!

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

I thought WLTP was close to reality... 417km vs 260km in winter is a big spread!

EPA is 350km

More realistic

Pretty good range for a tank like that and a small battery

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

EPA is 350km

More realistic

Pretty good range for a tank like that and a small battery

He did say 360km in summaer so that matches EPA I suppose.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

I thought WLTP was close to reality

What made you think that?

WLTP is close to reality as long as you don't drive on motorways. There is very, very little driving at 120km/h in the WLTP cycle (or the EPA one for that matter)

I wish the official range of EVs was at 0C at 120km/h GPS speed

We'd all know very well what we'd get into then. No surprises. Although I suspect those figures would be shockingly low for many of the EVs for sale today.

Mercedes isn't the first to give two figures for winter and summer range BTW. That was Renault giving the Zoe 41kWh a range with mixed driving of 300km in summer and 200km in winter

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

What made you think that?

WLTP is close to reality as long as you don't drive on motorways. There is very, very little driving at 120km/h in the WLTP cycle (or the EPA one for that matter)

I wish the official range of EVs was at 0C at 120km/h GPS speed

We'd all know very well what we'd get into then. No surprises. Although I suspect those figures would be shockingly low for many of the EVs for sale today.

Mercedes isn't the first to give two figures for winter and summer range BTW. That was Renault giving the Zoe 41kWh a range with mixed driving of 300km in summer and 200km in winter

I agree

Test at 120 is all that's needed

EPA has a bit more than WLTP but still not much

Bigger batteries are needed for EV's anyway

We are not going to get much more efficient than Ioniq or Model 3

F class luxury car like this should be 130kWh+, it's a serious machine, shameful it can only barely do Cork - Dublin @ 120, this thing is a luxury tank

Class standards

A 40kWh
B 60kWh
C 70kWh
D 100kWh

etc

ELM327

I note Tesla have started offering PCP/
I was looking at the price of a new model X and it's showing as €1100 per month based on 30k per year and €10k down, for standard range model.
https://www.tesla.com/en_IE/modelx/design#payment

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

I note Tesla have started offering PCP/
I was looking at the price of a new model X and it's showing as €1100 per month based on 30k per year and €10k down, for standard range model.
https://www.tesla.com/en_IE/modelx/design#payment

I wonder if they'll do that for the Model 3 or treat it like the US where lessee's will have no option to buy at the end.

Old diesel

KCross wrote: »

unkel wrote: »

They do

It's 259 miles / 417km

I thought WLTP was close to reality... 417km vs 260km in winter is a big spread!

To be fair to Merc here the WLTP probably is done in relatively ideal conditions in terms of temperture

Closer what what a user will get in real world then NEDC but wont reflect the difference in EV range between summer and winter.

I like the way Merc is being up front about the gap.

Renault are as well afaik.

Consumer acceptance of EV use will improve if they have a figure to work off as a general all year round figure.

The Merc situation is far less undesirable then someone like ELM327 finding that the journey he could do easily in summer with a 230 km range becomes a pain in winter as he just makes his destination at 170 kms.

EV designers need to work to minimise the gap but it's hard.

In meantime - transparency of a gap like Merc OR giving the winter figure as the real world figure is the way forward.

No one who bought a car based on a winter range is going to cry that at some times of the year the car will do more.

They will if they assume the summer range is a full year round range and they hit problems in winter

Anteayer

I'd assume the winter range would be worse in cold countries than here where it's rarely seriously cold and in hot climates wherr air conditioning has to work hard.

Ireland really doesn't place much demand on HVAC systems compared to most other places (maybe except NZ and parts of Japan)

ELM327

Anteayer wrote: »

I'd assume the winter range would be worse in cold countries than here where it's rarely seriously cold and in hot climates wherr air conditioning has to work hard.

Ireland really doesn't place much demand on HVAC systems compared to most other places (maybe except NZ and parts of Japan)

Ioniq loses 26% of its summer range in the Irish winter (I know, I had one and sold it for that reason)

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

I note Tesla have started offering PCP/
I was looking at the price of a new model X and it's showing as €1100 per month based on 30k per year and €10k down, for standard range model.
https://www.tesla.com/en_IE/modelx/design#payment

Whats the PCP % rate?

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

Ioniq loses 26% of its summer range in the Irish winter (I know, I had one and sold it for that reason)

Only in your case because last summer was exceptionally warm. I averaged 240km range driving it hard. I didn't get anything like that in my first summer, and I expect nothing like it this (my 3rd) summer with the car. And not quite 26%, that would imply a range (for me) of 178km in winter, I get a good bit more than that

I'd say I would average 220km in summer and 190km in winter, so about 14% less range in winter

digiman

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Whats the PCP % rate?

Looks to be about 4.7% but it’s a 4 year term as well.

Scottie99

Here an interesting Podcast/video I listened to today.

https://youtu.be/aSZ__c4y1m4

Mike9832

digiman wrote: »

Looks to be about 4.7% but it’s a 4 year term as well.

That rate is pretty good

Model S long range is coming out at €90,000

10,000 down
1259 pm x 48 months
30k km mileage allowance

€60,000 in monthly payments over 4 years

Is that high compared to Audi etc when buying a €90,000 car?

It's 66% of the total value, plus the down payment and the balloon payment

Better news

Would put a Model 3 SR+ at

5000 down
629pm x 48 months
30k km mileage allowance

That's not bad

Would prefer 500pm

Mike9832

Scottie99 wrote: »

Here an interesting Podcast/video I listened to today.

https://youtu.be/aSZ__c4y1m4

Not bad

She's way too pro Tesla

At one point she says no other auto-giant has the talent to build a self driving chip like Tesla?

Ahh ok

Toyota/VW are not talented :pac:

Honestly she loses all credibility at that point

Scottie99

Mike9832 wrote: »

Not bad

She's way too pro Tesla

At one point she says no other auto-giant has the talent to build a self driving chip like Tesla?

Ahh ok

Toyota/VW are not talented :pac:

Honestly she loses all credibility at that point

Quite possibly at the moment. I’d say others would rely on companies like Nvidia to do that kind of work..
https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/18/toyota-doubles-down-on-nvidia-tech-for-self-driving-cars/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmllLw&guce_referrer_cs=vvnKwUjEShA8pJlFSXA3Og

Sabre Man

Scottie99 wrote: »

Quite possibly at the moment. I’d say others would rely on companies like Nvidia to do that kind of work..

And also Intel (Mobileye).

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Only in your case because last summer was exceptionally warm. I averaged 240km range driving it hard. I didn't get anything like that in my first summer, and I expect nothing like it this (my 3rd) summer with the car. And not quite 26%, that would imply a range (for me) of 178km in winter, I get a good bit more than that

I'd say I would average 220km in summer and 190km in winter, so about 14% less range in winter

I never got higher than 220km.
I saw a low of 170 in the winter, but the last 15 or so km was driven with bings and bongs , no heating, and at a danger to other road users (20km/h on a country road). Never to be repeated.
Ioniq is not a 200km (or 190km) car all year round. I bought the hype from users here and saw 220km in the summer, so figured I'd have at least 190 in the winter. Nope, not a hope.


Ioniq was an impressive car when it was released against the leaf30 and ZE40 Zoe. Not compared to Kona/Niro/leaf40(if it had CCS) etc.


Time and tech changes in EVs.


As Tesla show, look at the range in 2014-16 and now. 150kW supercharging for cars previously limited to 105-115. 250kW in model 3.

unkel

Pretty good review by Rory Reid for Fully Charged

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8VGVOgWPpA

Nedved85

Anyone bought a Nokia or Motorola phone recently? Tesla are certainly not dead and will be around for a long time I imagine.

Shefwedfan

Nedved85 wrote: »

Anyone bought a Nokia or Motorola phone recently? Tesla are certainly not dead and will be around for a long time I imagine.

I bought a Nokia just last night

Nedved85

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I bought a Nokia just last night

Or a VW

Shefwedfan

Nedved85 wrote: »

Or a VW

What?

kirving

Scottie99 wrote: »

Quite possibly at the moment. I’d say others would rely on companies like Nvidia to do that kind of work..

Sabre Man wrote: »

And also Intel (Mobileye).

It's not about outright talent. Within the automotive world, getting a small headstart on validation efforts, building confidence in the quality of your design, and reducing its cost, is much more important than outright quality or technology.

As an example, Sony make image sensors for both the current iPhone, and at least up to the Samsung S9.

Do either of those companies not have the talent to manufacture a better camera sensor? They do, but from a business perspective, it suits them to go with an established supplier rather than assume any of that risk themselves.

Some people say it's Tesla bashing, but they have made clear concessions in some areas, most notably in safety, in order to get around the cost barrier, and make their autonomous tech available more quickly to more people.

Iterative development has got VW and Toyota to where they are today, and it will get them to a fully autonomous car too. But minimising risk, setting industry standards together, and lowering cost by pooling resources together via collaborations with Intel/Nvidia is something quite different to lack of talent.

Nedved85

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What?

Sorry was just giving a tongue in cheek respose to your response.

Ignore me.

innrain

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Some people say it's Tesla bashing, but they have made clear concessions in some areas, most notably in safety, in order to get around the cost barrier, and make their autonomous tech available more quickly to more people.

Interesting opinion. Do you have any references/facts?
I googled a bit but didn't find much

https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/best-in-class-cars/2019/
And
https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/hybrid-electric-vehicles/#?selectedMake=0&selectedMakeName=Select%20a%20make&selectedModel=0&selectedStar=&includeFullSafetyPackage=true&includeStandardSafetyPackage=true&selectedModelName=All&selectedProtocols=34803&selectedClasses=1202,1199,1201,1196,1205,1203,1198,1179,40250,1197,1204,1180,34736&allClasses=true&allProtocols=false&allDriverAssistanceTechnologies=false&selectedDriverAssistanceTechnologies=&thirdRowFitment=false. Sort by overall rating

liamog

Mod Note: If you want to talk about Tesla's do it in the relevant threads, you've moved beyond comparisons with the Mercedes EQC.

kirving

innrain wrote: »

Interesting opinion. Do you have any references/facts?
I googled a bit but didn't find much

Tesla's are exceptionally safe cars, no question about that, but there are example of drivers being killed because of a camera system not being able to see obstacles in some scenarios. There are also far many more examples of the wide availability of their tech saving lives of course.

More established manufacturers tend to take a far more conservative approach to development and IMO would be less likely to release a product with clear limitations for public testing.

liamog wrote: »

Mod Note: If you want to talk about Tesla's do it in the relevant threads, you've moved beyond comparisons with the Mercedes EQC.

Not trying to derail to Tesla, just highlighting that there's a clear difference between the development approaches of Daimler and Tesla, and it has little to do with lack of talent.