Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla - Mercedes EQC

Mike9832 · 17-05-2019 06:09PM

knipex wrote: »

How were we forced into diesel ???

We were incentivized sure, but forced ??

We were forced

How?

A 2.0D cost 180e a year in tax and a 2.0 petrol cost 800e in tax a year, adding too it, diesel did 50mpg and petrol 40mpg at best

Just like with electric

You think many people would buy drive an electric car if petrol/diesel was 50c a litre like it should be?

Extracting 60c for every €1 spent on petrol from drivers is unreasonable and unfair

TCP/IP · 17-05-2019 07:41PM

Who cares if anybody wants to drive a diesel we all do what works best for us at the time some want EV, some want petrol, some want diesel honestly who cares what the next person drives.
Anyone making smart comments about a person that drives diesel is a tool in my eyes, this I am mighter than thou attitude from some of the posters is out of order.
And no I don't drive a diesel or own one and I could not care less if people have one if it works for them all good in my eyes.

sk8board · 17-05-2019 07:56PM

in any given year, there are about 100,000+ new cars bought on avg, from an adult population of 3.5m, so over an avg 3 year change period, just under 10% of all adults buy a new car.
(notwithstanding the same person changing every year, et al).

propagate that over 10-15-20 years, and while it’s certainly not “everyone”, the % of people who buy just one new car at some point in their lives is pretty high.

it’s that new car smell :P

fricatus · 17-05-2019 08:47PM

TCP/IP wrote: »

Who cares if anybody wants to drive a diesel we all do what works best for us at the time some want EV, some want petrol, some want diesel honestly who cares what the next person drives.

If one causes more pollution (particularly local pollution) than the other, then surely it matters a lot? I say this as an occasional asthma sufferer.

Oafley Jones · 17-05-2019 10:16PM

Musk suggesting that the company will be out of cash in 10 months isn't good news, but I'm betting he's trying to take headlines away from the worse news; that of another autopilot fatality last month.

unkel · 17-05-2019 10:38PM

fricatus wrote: »

If one causes more pollution (particularly local pollution) than the other, then surely it matters a lot? I say this as an occasional asthma sufferer.

And let's not even start on cancer. Many thousands of people die every year in the EU alone because of diesel. But sure who cares as long as the tax is cheap.

Mike9832 · 17-05-2019 10:39PM

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Musk suggesting that the company will be out of cash in 10 months isn't good news, but I'm betting he's trying to take headlines away from the worse news; that of another autopilot fatality last month.

He should really just turn it off at this point, it's just a gimmick, we are years away from self driving, if I was buying a Tesla i would never buy it, better to keep the 5k

All the autogiants have gone ridiculously quiet on self driving, they know it's a decade off at the earliest.

Mike9832 · 17-05-2019 10:40PM

unkel wrote: »

And let's not even start on cancer. Many thousands of people die every year in the EU alone because of diesel. But sure who cares as long as the tax is cheap.

Should we all become Vegan as well?

Bad EU

kirving · 17-05-2019 10:56PM

Mike9832 wrote: »

He should really just turn it off at this point, it's just a gimmick, we are years away from self driving, if I was buying a Tesla i would never buy it, better to keep the 5k

I think they're limited by the available sensor technology at the price point they sell cars at. There's only so much that can be done by smart AI. You need exceptionally high quality data as an input to the software, in order to have a safe autonomous car.

I work in automotive electronics, and the absolute number one priority is quality (ie: reliability) at all costs. It comes before absolutely everything else. No design is released until it has undergone months if not years of testing.

Tesla I think are taking calculated risks in releasing adaptive cruise control with auto lane change, with the minimum amount of sensing hardware they can get away with, and then branding it Autopilot

That said, if I were buying a new Tesla, I'd be speccing it for sure. It can and will get better with software update, but probably not qualified as Full Self Driving with the existing hardware.

Look at the major players in AD, all vehicles have extensive visible sensor systems.

Mike9832 wrote: »

All the autogiants have gone ridiculously quiet on self driving, they know it's a decade off at the earliest.

No they haven't. The big OEM's don't release a product until it's testing to the end of the earth. Taking risks pays of for Tesla as they're an extremely desirable brand, people have far different expectations of VW, who would suffer hugely should an collision be deemed their fault.

Sabre Man · 18-05-2019 10:32AM

Correcting Audi: Tesla Model 3 Charges Over 2 Times Faster Than Audi e-tron

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/17/correcting-audi-tesla-model-3-charges-over-2-times-faster-than-audi-e-tron/

Shefwedfan · 18-05-2019 11:57AM

Sabre Man wrote: »

Correcting Audi: Tesla Model 3 Charges Over 2 Times Faster Than Audi e-tron

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/17/correcting-audi-tesla-model-3-charges-over-2-times-faster-than-audi-e-tron/

For a person buying an Audi, 99% of them won't care....

Let's put it this way, if the Audi was faster you would never hear the Audi seller mention it.....

TCP/IP · 18-05-2019 05:00PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

For a person buying an Audi, 99% of them won't care....

Let's put it this way, if the Audi was faster you would never hear the Audi seller mention it.....

Exactly that’s completely irrelevant for their target market.

KCross · 18-05-2019 05:57PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

For a person buying an Audi, 99% of them won't care....

Let's put it this way, if the Audi was faster you would never hear the Audi seller mention it.....

TCP/IP wrote: »

Exactly that’s completely irrelevant for their target market.

I dont know about that. Just because someone can afford an eTron doesnt mean they dont value their time... in fact they are probably more likely to value their time than others..... sitting at public infrastructure for an hour isnt going to go down well.

The motorway range for the eTron and EQC, for the money involved, is going to be poor and they have large batteries so charge speed is going to be very important.

Now, if the eTron was bought just to take Johnny to school then it wont matter to that owner but is that 99%?... I doubt it.

Kramer · 18-05-2019 06:04PM

Kevin Irving wrote: »

........the absolute number one priority is quality (ie: reliability) at all costs. It comes before absolutely everything else. No design is released until it has undergone months if not years of testing.

Boeing 737 Max?

Kevin Irving wrote: »

The big OEM's don't release a product until it's testing to the end of the earth.

Boeing 737 Max?

kirving · 18-05-2019 06:36PM

Kramer wrote: »

Boeing 737 Max?

Boeing 737 Max?

Anything more to add than selectively picking an example?

Anyway, the 737 MAX is exception that proves the rule. It's exceptionally rare, nigh-on unheard of for a fatal design flaw to make into a commercial airliner, and the public just don't accept that it's okay to sacrifice quality for the sake of innovation.

When a Tesla crashes on "Autopilot", their defenders are very quick to point out that the computer is still statistically safer than a human, and that innovation comes at a price. A 737 MAX 8 is safer than driving, but that doesn't wash with customers who expect more.

There are estimations online of up to two thirds of first generation Tesla powertrains being replaced, albeit under warranty. Those kinds of figures, even if heavily inflated, are completely unpalatable to established OEM's and their potential customers.

The fact is, that Tesla score consistently considerably poorer than European rivals discussed here.

It's par for the course when it comes to being an early adopter of technology, and Tesla have done incredibly well in the timeframe, and they will undoubtedly improve further as time passes.

It's exceptionally difficult to innovate and grow at the rate Tesla have done, and also maintain and proven reliable product, you can't have one or the other.

Sabre Man · 18-05-2019 08:11PM

https://www.autonews.com/executives/bmw-ceo-defends-record-after-first-automaking-loss-decade

Will BMW be one of the losers in the shift to EVs?

unkel · 18-05-2019 08:57PM

Sabre Man wrote: »

https://www.autonews.com/executives/bmw-ceo-defends-record-after-first-automaking-loss-decade

Will BMW be one of the losers in the shift to EVs?

It's not looking too good for them, what a shame, my favourite car maker of all time. They had such a good start in electrification but some muppets high up like Klaus Frölich completely stalled the progress :mad: That could turn out to be a very expensive mistake, perhaps even fatal...

Shefwedfan · 18-05-2019 09:00PM

unkel wrote: »

It's not looking too good for them, what a shame, my favourite car maker of all time. They had such a good start in electrification but some muppets high up like Klaus Frölich completely stalled the progress :mad: That could turn out to be a very expensive mistake, perhaps even fatal...

They have x3 electric coming, release that and a 3 series electric and all will be good

The i3?? Really why?? It’s a good car but it’s too quirky, no back windows, 4 seats etc etc....

Sabre Man · 18-05-2019 09:11PM

To be fair to the i3, it's selling fairly well for such a relatively expensive car according to https://eu-evs.com/.

But BMW needs something else to compete with Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar and Tesla.

unkel · 18-05-2019 09:14PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They have x3 electric coming, release that and a 3 series electric and all will be good

The i3?? Really why?? It’s a good car but it’s too quirky, no back windows, 4 seats etc etc....

BMW were manufacturing the i3 in 2013, that's 6 years ago. They could have been mass manufacturing hundreds of thousands of 3 series / X3 EV by 2016. Tesla might not even have had a chance.

KCross · 18-05-2019 09:27PM

BMW's recent AGM declared that PHEV's and hybrids is their future with some EV's thrown in but they basically want to milk the ICE cow for a while longer.

Statement Harald Krüger, Chairman of the Board of Management of BMW AG 99th Annual General Meeting of BMW AG...

2019 is our year of the plug-in hybrid, with the BMW 3 Series, the X3, X5 and the 7 Series. They all come with our fourth-generation battery and electric engine technology, with an extended electric range up to 80 kilometres.

Shefwedfan · 18-05-2019 09:37PM

Sabre Man wrote: »

To be fair to the i3, it's selling fairly well for such a relatively expensive car according to https://eu-evs.com/.

But BMW needs something else to compete with Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar and Tesla.

BMW market is business people in reality, very few of those buyers would look at an i3

unkel · 18-05-2019 10:19PM

KCross wrote: »

BMW's recent AGM declared that PHEV's and hybrids is their future with some EV's thrown in but they basically want to milk the ICE cow for a while longer.

Statement Harald Krüger

Krüger is another gobsh1te as was his predecessor Reithofer.

kippy · 18-05-2019 10:25PM

n97 mini wrote: »

Tesla are like Apple was shortly after the release of the first iPhone. Great tech in a product competing against the established players like Nokia and Ericsson. (Where are they now?)

Roll on more than a decade and Apple still has over 15% market share, despite stiff competition from Samsung and others. Apple is still probably the most desirable phone brand.

Tesla's position is similar to Apple's and I can't see that changing any time soon.

Totally different products.

KCross · 20-05-2019 04:41PM

EQC Director of Development puts the EQC real world range at 260km in winter and 360km in summer.

The winter range drops because it heats the battery to ensure you get max charge speed when you arrive at the rapid.... same as Tesla's do.

Sabre Man · 20-05-2019 05:55PM

KCross wrote: »

EQC Director of Development puts the EQC real world range at 260km in winter and 360km in summer.

The winter range drops because it heats the battery to ensure you get max charge speed when you arrive at the rapid.... same as Tesla's do.

At what speeds?

Old diesel · 20-05-2019 07:20PM

Have to give Merc credit for giving a winter range figure

KCross · 20-05-2019 09:35PM

Sabre Man wrote: »

At what speeds?

I took it to mean motorway speed. He seemed to be giving real world ranges but hard to say exactly what speed he was referring to.

Cork-Dublin could be tight in winter.

Old diesel wrote: »

Have to give Merc credit for giving a winter range figure

For sure. I wonder why they dont have WLTP figures out. He only quoted NEDC and then spoke off the cuff about real world ranges. A WLTP figure would be good to have a reference to other cars.

unkel · 20-05-2019 09:51PM

KCross wrote: »

I wonder why they dont have WLTP figures out.

They do

It's 259 miles / 417km

KCross · 20-05-2019 09:58PM

unkel wrote: »

They do

It's 259 miles / 417km

I thought WLTP was close to reality... 417km vs 260km in winter is a big spread!

Is this the beginning of the end for Tesla - Mercedes EQC

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