Galway traffic

bobbyss

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117615200#Comment_117615200

It is very rare that UHG Roundabout is flowing free. Always chock-a- block. With no access for pedestrians. Making a smallish roundabout like that without safe crossings for pedestrians! Was the engineer asleep or what? What kind of incompetence is that?

timmyntc

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117616345#Comment_117616345

A number of them were junctions originally - but roundabouts go faster in your car (at 11pm at night)

Pedestrian crossings or rush hour traffic were never really considered

McGiver

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117597066#Comment_117597066

Could be faster that tram system - not sure, I would question that. It's not faster in reality on the ground based on what I've seen. I'd like you to provide evidence to back up this claim, because it contradicts the trends in Europe where they repeatedly settled for a tram system (for a reason).

Could be electric buses - but they're not. They are all diesels at present here, they've bought few hybrids, which are useless. Unless bus electrification is built in to the project as a requirement, this argument is just a red herring and not worth mentioning.

Could be more effective than a tram system - absolutely not. That's why dozens of cities in Europe use trams. Bus systems have a limit, beyond which they are no longer effective as the core public transport element.

McGiver

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117598772#Comment_117598772

I don't know what trade you're in, but from my project management background and also referring to my local architect acquiantace, I can tell you that "cultural assesment" is not part of any serious architectural/construction case study or project design.

There could be a section on "habits" when it comes to public transport design study, but certainly not culture. Saying that, it's important to note that policy, and especially transport policy in a city, is exactly all about changing "habits" to drive specific policy goals. It's actually the opposite of what you propose — which is basically fawning to the local culture, and that many times includes unsustainable or otherwise inconducive habits. There is basically no progress possible if your policy is to maintain the status quo including inconducive habits. Sound policy is about steering these habits away and attaining your policy goals. Of course, you must have a policy, in the first place (I don't think GCC has any).

I'm sorry but the rest of your post is a collection of anecdotal evidence, hearsay etc., i.e., nothing that should be considered as part of a serious discussion around evidence-based public transport policies.

True, buses have a limit, but Galway is decades away from reaching that limit

McGiver

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117600682#Comment_117600682

On spending – yes, this is a recognised issue in Irish governance. Too much centralisation. Ireland probably has the most centralised governance in the EU. The local government/decentralisation is implemented only to check a check box, but LA authority & budget is very limited. This is a big part of the issue with infrastructure and public transport projects. Would you like to see a higher decentralisation? Given, the track record of GCC, would you trust them with more budget and spending ability? Six of one, half a dozen of the other... I'd still think decentralisation should be attempted, because it is beneficial overall, despite the risks in local context.

In terms of Linz as an example – what other example do you want me to give? There are dozens of others I can provide. But if the criterion is that "None of them are exactly like Galway" or "We need an Irish solution to an Irish problem" then there's exactly zero examples I can give you, because your constraints are unrealistic.

I don't believe in "Irish solution for an Irish problem" by the way - it's a complete nonsense. There are only good, evidence-based policies and solutions or there are bad solutions. There's no specific magic solution specific only for Ireland or for Galway.

As I mentioned, BRT is a 3rd/2nd world concept and simply not progressive, modern or good enough in 2021. If you suggested it in early 1990s then I would 've agreed. But not 30 years later, in 2021. We need to move on with the times and plan ahead. Links to the newly opened Lund tram line I have mentioned, the following is from their website – this is the forward thinking required for making progress (emphasis added):

Experience from modern tramway installations elsewhere is that they are suited to integration with well-designed spaces and the incorporation of around 40 000m2 of grass track adds a valuable green element to the street space. The higher comfort levels and quality of the travel experience is also expected to attract more public transport users, importantly those who currently use a car as their primary mode of travel.

For the city, development along the tram corridor is also of great strategic importance: 30% of the expected growth over the next three decades is planned along the tramway, with a projected 40 000 new residents and workplaces. Positive effects have already  been seen, in turn improving the conditions for further sustainable growth and becoming a virtuous circle.

Several developers have stated that without the tramway they would not have been interested in investing in Brunnshög. While it is difficult to put an exact monetary figure on this, it is proven elsewhere that fixed rail infrastructure creates a security that increases confidence in investing. Square metre prices along the route have risen by an average of 25% and while there is still a lot of land to be sold, a great deal of interest is being shown.

There won't be a light rail system in Galway for decades (Cork is looking at post 2035, then Limerick, then Galway after that) so in terms of addressing anything in the short to medium term, its merely a distraction.

Will there be a light rail system in Galway, no doubt. Will it be brilliant, sure will. Will it be here within the next 20 years, not a chance.

To put things into perspective, take the ring road as an example. The latest plan kicked off in 2013, was submitted for approval in 2018 and is still waiting (due August). Lets say it gets approved, there will be judicial challenges adding another 5 years, thats 2026, then tendering, preliminary works, construction etc etc, you are looking at 2034. This is for a road that goes through mostly fields.

Now look at how much more complex adding a light rail line to the urban areas would be.

There has yet to even be a feasibility study completed so it is a LONG LONGGGG way off.

To reiterate, I am not against a light rail system, I just think its pointless talking about it in the context of addressing the current needs of Galway city as there is no physical way it can be implemented inside 20 years (best case) so in the interim its better to focus on things that can be delivered in 1, 3, 5 years. Those are the things which will benefit people in Galway in the short to medium term.

McGiver

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117619488#Comment_117619488

It's decades from reaching that limit because your suggested solution is a) not good, modern, sustainable enough to achieve a serious modal shift and b) only exacerbates the problem. It's a self-defeating strategy.

If you're going through the hassle of revamping the PT and if you've serious unsustanaible traffic issues and if you've projections of a rather rapid city, population & car traffic growth, then why would you aim for such a poor solution i.e. the bus?

1. People are not using buses, because the service isn't good enough and there's a stigma around buses here.
2. As the population increases and unplanned suburban sprawl continues (there's zero evidence to the contrary) I can't see a path to where the buses will get better, in terms of service. I can't see a path towards modal shift from cars to buses in this situation.
3. Buses will continue to be half-empty --> the PT will continue to be crappy --> there will continue to be underinvestment in PT --> back to #1.

There's definitive evidence that people prefer a tram to a bus. I'm pretty sure that more people in Galway would shift modes towards tram than towards bus if they were given a car vs tram/bus choice. If you've a population spoilt by individual car transport, you need to offer them something better, cooler, comfortable than a bus. Buses (at least the ones on offer) simply won't cut it. They would work if you offered them to people who were not spoilt by car-dependency, to people who had to walk or cycle for kilometres and had no other choice.

Perhaps light-rail, which definitely attracts more modal shift as evidenced elsewhere, could be part of the solution to remove stigma from the PT here and offer the consumer/user a better option. Just a thought. That wouldn't be my primary reason for light-rail, of course. But it's part of th mix, for sure.

cgcsb

There's going to have to be a review of public transport. The CMATS proposals for Cork are laughable in their lack of ambition, electrifying a small suburban rail service by 2040. Simply not good enough, especially in light of recent european policy changes.

Similarly the LSMATS proposal envisages no commuter rail for Limerick by 2040. Complete farce really considering cities on the mainland of similar size brought these things in decades ago. Policy for Galway will also have to be reformed radically if we've any hope of catching up with Europe.

timmyntc

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117620053#Comment_117620053

Do you even live in Galway?

The good bus routes (bus lanes etc) are consistently full or near full. They have very good uptake, and the only thing holding them back is capacity and bus priority.

The idea that nobody takes the bus in Galway is a total lie.

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117620053#Comment_117620053

Hmm, I think perhaps that I am not communicating my point clearly.

I am talking about this in the context of this thread which deals with the day to day traffic and upcoming changes which will impact the lives of people in Galway be they motorists, pedestrians, cyclists or bus users and seeing that impact in the short to medium term. I'm talking about road layout changes, new bike lanes etc.

As an example, the cross city link route will be done by 2023/2024 but we'll start seeing work on it from next year when they start the new bridge at the Salmon Weir. Once that link route is implemented it will have a massive impact. It will shorten journey times, more consistent journey times, more reliable timetables, allow for increased frequency etc etc.

I'm not against LR for Galway but it will not be a quick implementation by any stretch so I don't think it makes sense to discuss it here, in this thread, as we are talking decades to see any impact from it as opposed to months/years. That is the only point I am trying to make in relation to LR. I think I've done a poor job of making that point over previous posts on the topic

I think its a topic well worth discussing, from its cost, time to implement, route selection etc etc etc and just think it might make more sense to put all that into a separate thread. I'm going to flag this to biko and let him make a call on it.

Just as I mention the Cross city link, its in the news today. GCC are going to ABP for approval for the required changes along the route

The Cross City link project forms part of the Bus Connects Galway project and would see an east-west priority corridor through the core of the city, via UHG, and aims to create a modal transport shift in the city by providing certainty of frequency and journey time reliability for public transport.

The plan includes restrictions for private traffic during peak hours along key routes including the Salmon Weir Bridge, Eglinton Street and College Road.

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/city-council-to-apply-for-planning-permission-for-major-bus-project-by-start-of-next-year/

Triangle

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117620179#Comment_117620179

You're right to a degree. There's no alternative PT so you don't get a view of what people want.

In Dublin, the prices of houses around luas stops are higher. This shows people want to be closer to luas. Fast, efficient and reliable.

Now putting in bus lanes would help the reliability, but when the city center is gridlocked, then the busses will be delayed.

So unless you take the cars out of the center (affecting disabled people negatively) you'll never have as reliable service as a light or very light rail system.

A piece from yesterdays Advertiser

Galway’s traffic congestion will not be eased, or reduced, by the Galway City Outer Ring Road, it will only be exacerbated by it, leading to an increase in pollution and environmental damage.

This is the view of People Before Profit’s Galway representative, Adrian Curran, who has called on the Galway City Council to scrap plans for the controversial ring road, also referred to as the Galway bypass, and replace it with plans and investment in light rail and commuter rail.

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/123104/ring-road-will-increase-traffic-not-reduce-it-says-pbp-galway

Invest in a segregated bus network that's reliable. Extra lanes where there's space and one-way private traffic where there's not.

Density will build near the reliable network then in the future decades the busiest routes can be converted to light rail lines.

Mrs OBumble

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117619481#Comment_117619481

You don't think that cultural fit is important? That's like saying Travellers can all just be housed in standard housing, and no need to think about designing for social connections, access to outdoor space, and someplace reasonable for them to keep their horses. It work for a few - but for very many, It Doesn't.

In fact your whole post reads like a colonialist manifesto: the Great European Man coming in to save the ignorant natives from themselves.

donvito99

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117619423#Comment_117619423

1. Going from Heuston to O'Connell Bridge? Get the bus, it's faster than the Red Line. There you go.
2. "Unless bus electrification is built in".... why wouldn't it be? Why is a hypothetical solution a red herring? A tram system for a city the size of Galway is a red herring, or more accurately, a pipe dream.
3. Bus systems do have a limit, and Galway as is does not surpass it. It is horses for courses. Other cities use Metros and heavy rail as their core public transport element - this makes your tram system totally useless, no? Galway is a small city with big trip generators strung out from the city centre to Parkmore. You could spend a whole pile of money on a tram system, which will serve people living/working approx 1 km either side of the alignment, or you could have a central bus corridor and permit much more people in the city to avail of a fast, flexible and convenient public transport system with coverage that a tram system simply cannot provide - at a fraction of the cost of a tram system. When the buses are overloadeda such that you need to run one every minute, that's when you need the capacity of a tram system.

donvito99

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117620431#Comment_117620431

It's not necesary to take cars out of the city centre to facilitate a decent bus system. It's only necessary to restrict access to a degree.

And for every disabled person negatively affected by a restriction on private traffic, there will be a disabled person relying on public transport whose lot in life will be greatly improved. And of course, why not just permit blue badge holders to continue to drive in, give them more parking and restrict the vast, vast majority of drivers who are able bodied?

cgcsb

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117620431#Comment_117620431

Any evidence of the disabled being negatively impacted? most cities that have re-orientated space away from cars and towards walking and public trasport generally see an improvement in comfort and safety for the disabled.

I meant to say Quality Bus Corridors rather than BRT.

Trams would be great, but they are far away.

bobbyss

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117623337#Comment_117623337

I regularly take the Luas from Heuston to O'C Street. The 145 Bus is a regular bus leaving Heuston to city centre and beyond. Regular enough for both Luas and the 145 often to leave at exactly the same time. When this happens, for starters, the Luas is at Museum while the 145 is still negotiating exit from a busy Heuston. Luas three times faster I would say and maybe more when traffic is very heavy. The only disadvantage of the Luas at that point is you probably have to stand-it being so popular.

Mrs OBumble

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625712#Comment_117625712

Except on days when someone has a heart attack in one of the trams. The ambos want to spend time stabilising them before transporting, so the entire system says pretty much stopped for 30-40 minutes. Or a tram breaks down. Or a bicycle gets stuck in the rails. Or someone gets hit by a tram and there needs to be a technical investigation.

I only visit Dublin occasionally, and have seen all but the last happen. I've heard about the last happening, but not see it myself.

At least with non-fixed-route vehicles, there are options for some passengers.

bobbyss

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626099#Comment_117626099

Of course these things can happen. I have no statistics to call on but I wonder how frequent they actually do happen. In any event not frequent enough for me to even think of taking a bus.

Gremlinertia

Today was a sh1t show, town centre was locked up, yet volumes of vehicles appeared no different to yesterday. Been walking around the exact same time four or five days in a row and today was just different, can't just be a 'sunday driver' thing.

Mrs OBumble

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117629384#Comment_117629384

Where exactly in the town centre, and when?

I travelled in from Doughiska to Eyre Square around 2pm: the city centre was absolutely fine, buses all on time. Walked from Eyre Square to Spanish arch around 10pm, looked fine there/then, too.

Gremlinertia

Feck forgot the time doesn't appear on my post the following day, between four and nine, spanish arch, eyre square and college road..

A lot of what is in this article is very much applicable to Galway and its needs.

Great to see Galways own Neasa Bheilbigh talking about permeability in it

The headline 5 ideas are

• Make it sustainable
• Make it accessible
• Make it permeable
• Make it light
• Make it ambitious

There's a lot of detail under each of those headings in the article

https://www.thejournal.ie/how-to-solve-fix-public-transport-problems-ireland-experts-ideas-5500732-Jul2021/?utm_source=shortlink

what_traffic

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117647475#Comment_117647475

One of the better contributions as well from Neasa IMHO after reading the article.

@biko

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117620271#Comment_117620271

@biko I've learned from other forums that not all mod tools are working so I'm flagging you like this to make contact as its also not possible to PM you on the new site as your profile is set to private. I flagged a post to make contact also but I don't believe this is working right now

Can you review the quoted post and the earlier discussions and make a call here on the light rail stuff. Looking to split out the posts on that topic to another thread as any possible implementation is decades away (for reference Cork is planned for 2040's) so it makes little sense to discuss it here which has been historically more focused on the short to medium term.

Didn't realise they were this far along

https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1418185667176173569?s=20