backdating tenancy

Dav010 · 16-12-2019 3:46pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I've signed on for nothing yet so don't get the "taken for a walk" barb

Yes, you have.

You signed on to be your tenants Landlord the moment you bought the property with them in situ. Now you have the previous LL’s rights and obligations.

Mad_maxx · 16-12-2019 3:48pm

antix80 wrote: »

They might as well say the house was left to them by their granny in poland. I'd be looking for evidence.

And what if no evidence is produced?

You can't throw someone out

Mad_maxx · 16-12-2019 3:49pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Yes, you have.

You signed on to be your tenants Landlord the moment you bought the property with them in situ. Now you have the previous LL’s rights and obligations.

Out of context

Graham · 16-12-2019 3:49pm

antix80 wrote: »

They might as well say the house was left to them by their granny in poland. I'd be looking for evidence.

Sensible but lack of such 'evidence' does not automatically remove a tenants rights or absolve a landlord of their responsibilities.

antix80 · 16-12-2019 3:54pm

Graham wrote: »

Sensible but lack of such 'evidence' does not automatically remove a tenants rights or absolve a landlord of their responsibilities.

I didn't say I'd remove their rights. I just wouldn't provide them with more than they're entitled to. One of the guys seems to have lived there almost 7 years but has poor English, come on! Part 4 tenancy and a refund of deposit just for telling a few fibs.

It may be in the op's interest to provide use of the house to an immediate family member or to substantially renovate it.

Ballso · 16-12-2019 3:57pm

How on earth did you end up buying a property with non-paying sitting tenants without even an idea when the tenancy started OP? Did you not have a solicitor engaged for the purchase?

Graham · 16-12-2019 4:01pm

antix80 wrote: »

One of the guys seems to have lived there almost 7 years but has poor English, come on!

That would certainly be an interesting defence at an RTB tribunal. Not one that I personally would be hoping to rely on.

antix80 · 16-12-2019 4:04pm

Graham wrote: »

That would certainly be an interesting defence at an RTB tribunal. Not one that I personally would be hoping to rely on.

Well, that's where op needs to be smart about things so that it doesn't get to an RTB tribunal.

Graham · 16-12-2019 4:08pm

Absolutely.

Best way to achieve this is to keep everything above board as the OP is looking to do. Even then, there are plenty of landlords who end up in front of the RTB despite doing everything by the book.

Mad_maxx · 16-12-2019 4:18pm

Ballso wrote: »

How on earth did you end up buying a property with non-paying sitting tenants without even an idea when the tenancy started OP? Did you not have a solicitor engaged for the purchase?

Got it at a 30% discount, cash purchase, I'll deal with what's in front of me

Don't mind being viewed as an idiot but prefer if we just kept to the process details.

Mad_maxx · 16-12-2019 4:25pm

Graham wrote: »

Absolutely.

Best way to achieve this is to keep everything above board as the OP is looking to do. Even then, there are plenty of landlords who end up in front of the RTB despite doing everything by the book.

On the point of taking on all the occupants accrued rights, does that also apply to anything which might have been in a lease.

Might I be obliged to hoover the floors or cover gas and electricity bills?

Seriously, where does the inheritance end?

Dav010 · 16-12-2019 4:33pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

On the point of taking on all the occupants accrued rights, does that also apply to anything which might have been in a lease.

Might I be obliged to hoover the floors or cover gas and electricity bills?

Seriously, where does the inheritance end?

Yes, you are obligated to continue the lease as agreed by the previous owner, if that included hoovering and the bills, you would have to continue that agreement.

Did you read the link I posted?

Mad_maxx · 16-12-2019 4:37pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Yes, you are obligated to continue the lease as agreed by the previous owner, if that included hoovering and the bills, you would have to continue that agreement.

Did you read the link I posted?

I don't know if there is a " no fixed term lease" here, why would anyone ever agree to an infinite duration lease?

Dav010 · 16-12-2019 4:51pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I don't know if there is a " no fixed term lease" here, why would anyone ever agree to an infinite duration lease?

In practical terms, a written lease means damn all. After 6 months the tenant gains Part 4 tenancy rights so fixed term leases are actually a hindrance to a LL if they think they may ever need to terminate the lease for one of the valid reasons set out in the RTA.

You also understand that the tenant does not need to have a written lease, it is not a legal requirement. The tenants rights are already guaranteed by the RTA.

Mad_maxx · 16-12-2019 4:52pm

The guy who spoke English the other night told me that he was paying 500 euro per month until the receivers moved in but that the landlord was covering the electricity and gas bills, obviously my having to reinstate such an arrangement would be a disaster if they had a no fixed term lease

Mad_maxx · 16-12-2019 4:53pm

Dav010 wrote: »

In practical terms, a written lease means damn all. After 6 months the tenant gains Part 4 tenancy rights so fixed term leases are actually a hindrance to a LL if they think they may ever need to terminate the lease for one of the valid reasons set out in the RTA.

You also understand that the tenant does not need to have a written lease, it is not a legal requirement. The tenants rights are already guaranteed by the RTA.

If they don't have a written lease, how can i be obliged to hoover the floor and pay the gas bills?

Dav010 · 16-12-2019 4:56pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The guy who spoke English the other night told me that he was paying 500 euro per month until the receivers moved in but that the landlord was covering the electricity and gas bills, obviously my having to reinstate such an arrangement would be a disaster if they had a no fixed term lease

After 6 months there, they don’t need a fixed term lease. The lease continues under Part 4 regs with whatever you as agreed on the original lease. If the tenant has a lease showing previous owner was paying utilities, then you have a problem, he can open a dispute with the RTB and present the original lease, if you read the link I posted earlier, you will see that you have taken over the previous LLs obligations.

Dav010 · 16-12-2019 4:58pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

If they don't have a written lease, how can i be obliged to hoover the floor and pay the gas bills?

Get yourself together, you asked a hypothetical question in an earlier post about hoovering and gas bills which “might have been”, obviously if they don’t have a lease saying that, you don’t pay.

meijin · 16-12-2019 5:04pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

If they don't have a written lease, how can i be obliged to hoover the floor and pay the gas bills?

for start try to get a copy of the lease from them or previous owner; get proofs how long they live there (utility bills, anything else)? otherwise it's just what "some guy said"

Mad_maxx · 16-12-2019 5:06pm

meijin wrote: »

for start try to get a copy of the lease from them or previous owner; get proofs how long they live there (utility bills, anything else)? otherwise it's just what "some guy said"

Are "no fixed term leases" infinite in terms of duration and the terms within?

Whether i succeed in getting hold of any such lease is neither here nor there, I'm bound to the conditions according to Dav

It appears a no fixed term lease protects the tenant from any future attempted rent increases by the landlord, maybe the original landlord knew he was about to loose the property and decided to poison the well for any future owner of the property.

I'll delay closing and if what Dav says is correct, I'll just default on the deposit

meijin · 16-12-2019 5:11pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Are "no fixed term leases" infinite in terms of duration and the terms within?

you should read about Part 4 tenancies

Mad_maxx · 16-12-2019 5:14pm

meijin wrote: »

you should read about Part 4 tenancies

From what Dav says and provides a link to, it seems a lease offers no cover for landlords but extraordinary protection for the tenants if constructed in a particular way

Ballso · 16-12-2019 5:17pm

You probably should have looked into that before buying this property...

Graham · 16-12-2019 5:18pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

From what Dav says and provides a link to, it seems a lease offers no cover for landlords but extraordinary protection for the tenants if constructed in a particular way

That's pretty much it.

Mad_maxx · 16-12-2019 5:25pm

Graham wrote: »

That's pretty much it.

So is it possible that if a "no fixed term lease" was drawn up in a particular way to include my paying the electricity and gas bills along with a 500 euro per month rent, i could never carry out a rent review in the future or get the tenant to pay utility bills as is standard practice?

Looks like I'll have to forfeit my deposit

Ballso · 16-12-2019 5:32pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

So is it possible that if a "no fixed term lease" was drawn up in a particular way to include my paying the electricity and gas bills along with a 500 euro per month rent, i could never carry out a rent review in the future or get the tenant to pay utility bills as is standard practice?

There's no such thing as a 'no fixed term lease', it's a part 4 tenancy. This is basic tenancy law 101. Not hard to see why robust protection for tenants is required, this is cowboy stuff.

Mad_maxx · 16-12-2019 5:44pm

Ballso wrote: »

There's no such thing as a 'no fixed term lease', it's a part 4 tenancy. This is basic tenancy law 101. Not hard to see why robust protection for tenants is required, this is cowboy stuff.

how am i a "cowboy" when im only at the paid a deposit stage ?

mrslancaster · 16-12-2019 5:57pm

Ballso wrote: »

There's no such thing as a 'no fixed term lease', it's a part 4 tenancy. This is basic tenancy law 101. Not hard to see why robust protection for tenants is required, this is cowboy stuff.

Everyone has to learn - IMO the legislation is complicated for someone not dealing with it on a regular basis like me or the OP. Letting has changed a lot in the past few years and the OP is right - the RTB can give different answers to the same questions especially if the query is any way unusual as the OP's. Posters on Boards are very helpful but the RTB should be the place to get answers. Some posters may think the OP should have looked into it a bit more beforehand but why does trying to understand how to proceed within the rules and without tying himself up in knots automatically become 'cowboy stuff'.

Ballso · 16-12-2019 6:02pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

how am i a "cowboy" when im only at the paid a deposit stage ?

So you went to these people's home, purported to be their new landlord, and took utility bills and PPS numbers from them when you haven't even closed?

Christ.

Mad_maxx · 16-12-2019 6:05pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

Everyone has to learn - IMO the legislation is complicated for someone not dealing with it on a regular basis like me or the OP. Letting has changed a lot in the past few years and the OP is right - the RTB can give different answers to the same questions especially if the query is any way unusual as the OP's. Posters on Boards are very helpful but the RTB should be the place to get answers. Some posters may think the OP should have looked into it a bit more beforehand but why does trying to understand how to proceed within the rules and without tying himself up in knots automatically become 'cowboy stuff'.

Thank you

I'm sitting here in deep shock, while I do not know for sure, it seems if a "no fixed term lease" exists and the conditions are that i must pay for the electricity and gas bills while collecting no more than 500 quid per month, the term of this arrangement is infinite.

The property is effectively locked into a bum deal permanently

backdating tenancy

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