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backdating tenancy

2

Comments

  • #52
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Graham wrote: »
    Registering the tenancy does not necessarily indicate the tenancy starts on the date of registration.

    Not sure what you're point is?


  • #53
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    antix80 wrote: »
    IMO if they haven't been paying rent, they can regularise their tenancy by paying arrears, and you can backdate their tenancy. Or they can start with a clean slate. Tenancy begins 16/12/19. New contract, payments on time, all above board.

    Which part of the legislation allows a landlord to conveniently ignore the previous/pre-existing tenancy?


  • #54
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Graham wrote: »
    Which part of the legislation allows a landlord to conveniently ignore the previous/pre-existing tenancy?

    Does the fact a receiver owned the property between myself and the original landlord change anything at all?


  • #55
    JustMe,K
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 610 ✭✭✭JustMe,K


    A tenancy is established from when a tenant takes occupation of the property though isn't it? So a change in landlord, the appointment of a receiver, not paying rent etc is immaterial to the length of the tenancy. Their notice period for rent increases, vacating the property etc is based on how long they have been there and each person may have a different tenancy length.

    You really need a few more robust facts, and I would begin with establishing your tenants original move in date.


  • #56
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    As far as I can see, nothing at all from the tenants/tenancy perspective. The only question might be over the tenants original deposit.


  • #57
    antix80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    Graham wrote: »
    Which part of the legislation allows a landlord to conveniently ignore the previous/pre-existing tenancy?

    My point was to put the onus on them to prove they have an existing tenancy arrangement, and they didn't just identify a vacant house and change the locks. They could show bank statements for example, and a copy of the lease they were provided. And if there is an existing tenancy make sure they've fulfilled their obligations (i.e. paying rent) if they want the benefits.
    Graham wrote: »
    As far as I can see, nothing at all from the tenants/tenancy perspective. The only question might be over the tenants original deposit.

    That's the first thing I thought of too.


  • #58
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    JustMe,K wrote: »
    A tenancy is established from when a tenant takes occupation of the property though isn't it? So a change in landlord, the appointment of a receiver, not paying rent etc is immaterial to the length of the tenancy. Their notice period for rent increases, vacating the property etc is based on how long they have been there and each person may have a different tenancy length.

    You really need a few more robust facts, and I would begin with establishing your tenants original move in date.

    Pick any date in 2013


  • #59
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    antix80 wrote: »
    My point was to put the onus on them to prove they have an existing tenancy arrangement, and they didn't just identify a vacant house and change the locks. They could show bank statements for example, and a copy of the lease they were provided. And if there is an existing tenancy make sure they've fulfilled their obligations (i.e. paying rent) if they want the benefits.

    The tenants get the benefit of the RTA unless the formal process to take away those benefits has been followed.

    A landlord cannot unilaterally decide that those benefits don't apply.


  • #60
    antix80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    Graham wrote: »
    The tenants get the benefit of the RTA unless the formal process to take away those benefits has been followed.

    They might as well say the house was left to them by their granny in poland. I'd be looking for evidence.


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  • #61
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    antix80 wrote: »
    My point was to put the onus on them to prove they have an existing tenancy arrangement, and they didn't just identify a vacant house and change the locks. They could show bank statements for example, and a copy of the lease they were provided. And if there is an existing tenancy make sure they've fulfilled their obligations (i.e. paying rent) if they want the benefits.



    That's the first thing I thought of too.

    That sounds fairly confrontational, my number one priority is to officially get the rent recorded with the RTB, if I have to go through a rent review to achieve that, fine.

    I'll know soon enough how decent they are going to be, the job of evicting tenants can come upon anyone and buying a property at top dollar won't prevent it


  • #62
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    I've signed on for nothing yet so don't get the "taken for a walk" barb

    Yes, you have.

    You signed on to be your tenants Landlord the moment you bought the property with them in situ. Now you have the previous LL’s rights and obligations.


  • #63
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    antix80 wrote: »
    They might as well say the house was left to them by their granny in poland. I'd be looking for evidence.

    And what if no evidence is produced?

    You can't throw someone out


  • #64
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Yes, you have.

    You signed on to be your tenants Landlord the moment you bought the property with them in situ. Now you have the previous LL’s rights and obligations.

    Out of context


  • #65
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    antix80 wrote: »
    They might as well say the house was left to them by their granny in poland. I'd be looking for evidence.

    Sensible but lack of such 'evidence' does not automatically remove a tenants rights or absolve a landlord of their responsibilities.


  • #66
    antix80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    Graham wrote: »
    Sensible but lack of such 'evidence' does not automatically remove a tenants rights or absolve a landlord of their responsibilities.

    I didn't say I'd remove their rights. I just wouldn't provide them with more than they're entitled to. One of the guys seems to have lived there almost 7 years but has poor English, come on! Part 4 tenancy and a refund of deposit just for telling a few fibs.

    It may be in the op's interest to provide use of the house to an immediate family member or to substantially renovate it.


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  • #67
    Ballso
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 465 ✭✭Ballso


    How on earth did you end up buying a property with non-paying sitting tenants without even an idea when the tenancy started OP? Did you not have a solicitor engaged for the purchase?


  • #68
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    antix80 wrote: »
    One of the guys seems to have lived there almost 7 years but has poor English, come on!

    That would certainly be an interesting defence at an RTB tribunal. Not one that I personally would be hoping to rely on.


  • #69
    antix80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    Graham wrote: »
    That would certainly be an interesting defence at an RTB tribunal. Not one that I personally would be hoping to rely on.

    Well, that's where op needs to be smart about things so that it doesn't get to an RTB tribunal.


  • #70
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Absolutely.

    Best way to achieve this is to keep everything above board as the OP is looking to do. Even then, there are plenty of landlords who end up in front of the RTB despite doing everything by the book.


  • #71
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Ballso wrote: »
    How on earth did you end up buying a property with non-paying sitting tenants without even an idea when the tenancy started OP? Did you not have a solicitor engaged for the purchase?

    Got it at a 30% discount, cash purchase, I'll deal with what's in front of me

    Don't mind being viewed as an idiot but prefer if we just kept to the process details.


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  • #72
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Graham wrote: »
    Absolutely.

    Best way to achieve this is to keep everything above board as the OP is looking to do. Even then, there are plenty of landlords who end up in front of the RTB despite doing everything by the book.

    On the point of taking on all the occupants accrued rights, does that also apply to anything which might have been in a lease.

    Might I be obliged to hoover the floors or cover gas and electricity bills?

    Seriously, where does the inheritance end?


  • #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    On the point of taking on all the occupants accrued rights, does that also apply to anything which might have been in a lease.

    Might I be obliged to hoover the floors or cover gas and electricity bills?

    Seriously, where does the inheritance end?

    Yes, you are obligated to continue the lease as agreed by the previous owner, if that included hoovering and the bills, you would have to continue that agreement.

    Did you read the link I posted?


  • #74
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Yes, you are obligated to continue the lease as agreed by the previous owner, if that included hoovering and the bills, you would have to continue that agreement.

    Did you read the link I posted?



    I don't know if there is a " no fixed term lease" here, why would anyone ever agree to an infinite duration lease?


  • #75
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    I don't know if there is a " no fixed term lease" here, why would anyone ever agree to an infinite duration lease?

    In practical terms, a written lease means damn all. After 6 months the tenant gains Part 4 tenancy rights so fixed term leases are actually a hindrance to a LL if they think they may ever need to terminate the lease for one of the valid reasons set out in the RTA.

    You also understand that the tenant does not need to have a written lease, it is not a legal requirement. The tenants rights are already guaranteed by the RTA.


  • #76
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    The guy who spoke English the other night told me that he was paying 500 euro per month until the receivers moved in but that the landlord was covering the electricity and gas bills, obviously my having to reinstate such an arrangement would be a disaster if they had a no fixed term lease


  • #77
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Dav010 wrote: »
    In practical terms, a written lease means damn all. After 6 months the tenant gains Part 4 tenancy rights so fixed term leases are actually a hindrance to a LL if they think they may ever need to terminate the lease for one of the valid reasons set out in the RTA.

    You also understand that the tenant does not need to have a written lease, it is not a legal requirement. The tenants rights are already guaranteed by the RTA.

    If they don't have a written lease, how can i be obliged to hoover the floor and pay the gas bills?


  • #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    The guy who spoke English the other night told me that he was paying 500 euro per month until the receivers moved in but that the landlord was covering the electricity and gas bills, obviously my having to reinstate such an arrangement would be a disaster if they had a no fixed term lease

    After 6 months there, they don’t need a fixed term lease. The lease continues under Part 4 regs with whatever you as agreed on the original lease. If the tenant has a lease showing previous owner was paying utilities, then you have a problem, he can open a dispute with the RTB and present the original lease, if you read the link I posted earlier, you will see that you have taken over the previous LLs obligations.


  • #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    If they don't have a written lease, how can i be obliged to hoover the floor and pay the gas bills?

    Get yourself together, you asked a hypothetical question in an earlier post about hoovering and gas bills which “might have been”, obviously if they don’t have a lease saying that, you don’t pay.


  • #80
    meijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭meijin


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    If they don't have a written lease, how can i be obliged to hoover the floor and pay the gas bills?

    for start try to get a copy of the lease from them or previous owner; get proofs how long they live there (utility bills, anything else)? otherwise it's just what "some guy said"


  • #81
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    meijin wrote: »
    for start try to get a copy of the lease from them or previous owner; get proofs how long they live there (utility bills, anything else)? otherwise it's just what "some guy said"

    Are "no fixed term leases" infinite in terms of duration and the terms within?

    Whether i succeed in getting hold of any such lease is neither here nor there, I'm bound to the conditions according to Dav

    It appears a no fixed term lease protects the tenant from any future attempted rent increases by the landlord, maybe the original landlord knew he was about to loose the property and decided to poison the well for any future owner of the property.

    I'll delay closing and if what Dav says is correct, I'll just default on the deposit


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  • #82
    meijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭meijin


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Are "no fixed term leases" infinite in terms of duration and the terms within?

    you should read about Part 4 tenancies


  • #83
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    meijin wrote: »
    you should read about Part 4 tenancies

    From what Dav says and provides a link to, it seems a lease offers no cover for landlords but extraordinary protection for the tenants if constructed in a particular way


  • #84
    Ballso
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 465 ✭✭Ballso


    You probably should have looked into that before buying this property...


  • #85
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    From what Dav says and provides a link to, it seems a lease offers no cover for landlords but extraordinary protection for the tenants if constructed in a particular way

    That's pretty much it.


  • #86
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Graham wrote: »
    That's pretty much it.

    So is it possible that if a "no fixed term lease" was drawn up in a particular way to include my paying the electricity and gas bills along with a 500 euro per month rent, i could never carry out a rent review in the future or get the tenant to pay utility bills as is standard practice?

    Looks like I'll have to forfeit my deposit


  • #87
    Ballso
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 465 ✭✭Ballso


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    So is it possible that if a "no fixed term lease" was drawn up in a particular way to include my paying the electricity and gas bills along with a 500 euro per month rent, i could never carry out a rent review in the future or get the tenant to pay utility bills as is standard practice?

    There's no such thing as a 'no fixed term lease', it's a part 4 tenancy. This is basic tenancy law 101. Not hard to see why robust protection for tenants is required, this is cowboy stuff.


  • #88
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Ballso wrote: »
    There's no such thing as a 'no fixed term lease', it's a part 4 tenancy. This is basic tenancy law 101. Not hard to see why robust protection for tenants is required, this is cowboy stuff.

    how am i a "cowboy" when im only at the paid a deposit stage ?


  • #89
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,082 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Ballso wrote: »
    There's no such thing as a 'no fixed term lease', it's a part 4 tenancy. This is basic tenancy law 101. Not hard to see why robust protection for tenants is required, this is cowboy stuff.

    Everyone has to learn - IMO the legislation is complicated for someone not dealing with it on a regular basis like me or the OP. Letting has changed a lot in the past few years and the OP is right - the RTB can give different answers to the same questions especially if the query is any way unusual as the OP's. Posters on Boards are very helpful but the RTB should be the place to get answers. Some posters may think the OP should have looked into it a bit more beforehand but why does trying to understand how to proceed within the rules and without tying himself up in knots automatically become 'cowboy stuff'.


  • #90
    Ballso
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 465 ✭✭Ballso


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    how am i a "cowboy" when im only at the paid a deposit stage ?

    So you went to these people's home, purported to be their new landlord, and took utility bills and PPS numbers from them when you haven't even closed?

    Christ.


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  • #91
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    Everyone has to learn - IMO the legislation is complicated for someone not dealing with it on a regular basis like me or the OP. Letting has changed a lot in the past few years and the OP is right - the RTB can give different answers to the same questions especially if the query is any way unusual as the OP's. Posters on Boards are very helpful but the RTB should be the place to get answers. Some posters may think the OP should have looked into it a bit more beforehand but why does trying to understand how to proceed within the rules and without tying himself up in knots automatically become 'cowboy stuff'.

    Thank you

    I'm sitting here in deep shock, while I do not know for sure, it seems if a "no fixed term lease" exists and the conditions are that i must pay for the electricity and gas bills while collecting no more than 500 quid per month, the term of this arrangement is infinite.

    The property is effectively locked into a bum deal permanently


  • #92
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,082 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    How can OP find out how long the tenancy agreement is in place if it is not registered with the RTB and the tenant has no written lease?

    Could the tenant get copy utility bills with the address as proof of when they moved in - the esb could provide details of when the account was opened. If the utilities are still in the previous owners name and still working who has been paying the bills? maybe tenant could provide a copy of a Revenue document or a letter from DSP showing the address? (other details redacted for GDPR)


  • #93
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Ballso wrote: »
    There's no such thing as a 'no fixed term lease', it's a part 4 tenancy. This is basic tenancy law 101. Not hard to see why robust protection for tenants is required, this is cowboy stuff.

    Dav said a "no fixed term lease" trumps a part 4 tenancy

    From a tenants point of view, it's far more valuable


  • #94
    meijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭meijin


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Thank you

    I'm sitting here in deep shock, while I do not know for sure, it seems if a "no fixed term lease" exists and the conditions are that i must pay for the electricity and gas bills while collecting no more than 500 quid per month, the term of this arrangement is infinite.

    The property is effectively locked into a bum deal permanently

    no, you can change the rent amount

    you keep asking random questions... instead you should:
    1. establish facts from tenants or previous owners
    2. read rtb.ie and educate yourself how tenancies work in Ireland
    3. then ask questions


  • #95
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mod Note

    Ballso, turn down the outrage please. I would be more concerned by a new landlord that wasn't asking questions.


  • #96
    dancingqueen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭dancingqueen


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Thank you

    I'm sitting here in deep shock, while I do not know for sure, it seems if a "no fixed term lease" exists and the conditions are that i must pay for the electricity and gas bills while collecting no more than 500 quid per month, the term of this arrangement is infinite.

    The property is effectively locked into a bum deal permanently

    Even if the tenants had a fixed term lease, they are protected by Part 4 once they are there over 6 months. If they are correct in their saying they are there over 6 years then they are protected by this law. Once a new 4 years starts within the first 6 months you can end their tenancy for no good reason.

    As for paying utility bills, this seems strange.. and I don't trust it. You need to seek legal advice and get solid proof of this. How can they have been living there since the receiver took it over - did the receiver take over the utility bills? If not, they would have been cut off surely for non payment.


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  • #97
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    meijin wrote: »
    2. read rtb.ie and educate yourself how tenancies work in Ireland

    This is good advice.

    OP, a tenant automatically acquires Part 4 rights after 6 months. A lease can only add to the Part 4 rights, it can't remove anything or impose lesser anything.

    You can only end a part 4 tenancy for specific reasons and subject to specific notice periods. The only exception to this is at the end of a 4yr or 6yr period but you would definitely want professional advice there.


  • #98
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    meijin wrote: »
    no, you can change the rent amount

    you keep asking random questions... instead you should:
    1. establish facts from tenants or previous owners
    2. read rtb.ie and educate yourself how tenancies work in Ireland
    3. then ask questions

    Hi Meijin

    i was a LL before , i just didnt realise that any of this was a possibility and neither did my solicitor . they told me if i was a cash buyer and prepared to spend two years going through an eviction process with the occupants , they could approve the deal as the title was good broadly speaking , the vendor has been asked to try and get something related to a pre existing tenancy but are under no obligation to provide same.

    dav made it clear earlier that a no fixed lease ( no matter how onerous the conditions therein ) trumps any future attempts by the LL to update the rent to reflect market rates. no one has yet disagreed with him either , its an astonishing revelation to me that an agreement can be infinite , im absolutely in shock


  • #99
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    How can OP find out how long the tenancy agreement is in place if it is not registered with the RTB and the tenant has no written lease?

    Could the tenant get copy utility bills with the address as proof of when they moved in - the esb could provide details of when the account was opened. If the utilities are still in the previous owners name and still working who has been paying the bills? maybe tenant could provide a copy of a Revenue document or a letter from DSP showing the address? (other details redacted for GDPR)

    the tenant is paying the utility bills i presume , previous landlord lost the property to receivers


  • #100
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    dancingqueen wrote: »
    Even if the tenants had a fixed term lease, they are protected by Part 4 once they are there over 6 months. If they are correct in their saying they are there over 6 years then they are protected by this law. Once a new 4 years starts within the first 6 months you can end their tenancy for no good reason.

    As for paying utility bills, this seems strange.. and I don't trust it. You need to seek legal advice and get solid proof of this. How can they have been living there since the receiver took it over - did the receiver take over the utility bills? If not, they would have been cut off surely for non payment.

    none of that is as important as what dav said

    if the previous landlord entered into a " no fixed term " lease with the tenants which states that the rent is 500 quid per month and that the landlord pays the electricity and gas bills . , that agreement is for an infinite period

    this is a hypothetical of course , there may be no written lease stating those conditions but if there is (and the tenant told me he used to pay 500 but the landlord covered the utility bills ) , its an unmitigated disaster for me and i would have to forfeit on my deposit if there is any conceivable scenario where the original landlord entered into such an arrangement , it would be too late after closing to do anything about it so i will have to seek professional advice in the next three weeks in relation to what a " no fixed term lease " can bestow upon a new owner , there is no way anyone could live with a mere 500 euro per month and pay utility bills for good measure


  • #101
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    A part 4 tenancy isn't really 'infinite' there are just limitations on when/why/how it can be ended.

    It would be in your own interest to rapidly familiarise yourself with the when/why how.

    If the property is not within an RPZ, you may also consider bringing the rent up-to market rates sooner rather than later.


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