Should Ireland have mandatory military service?

pgj2015

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Can anyone who is in or was in the Defence Forces give their opinion on this?

To me it seems a little insulting to reduce a skilled and challenging job to a kind of daycare for 18 year olds "to sort them out and teach them some respect".

Is there really that much of a demand in the Defence Forces for tens of thousands of unskilled and less motivated enlisted, that will be finishing their conscription shortly after they've learned anything worthwhile?

They would be better trained than our reserve army.

spurious

Some form of service could be used as a requirement before applying to get on the housing list/for unemployment assistance/for subsidised college etc..
It doesn't have to be as long as a year, or even in one go, it could be done summer of 3rd year and summer of 4th/5th year, but nothing for nothing.

pgj2015

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

You missed my point entirely. I love Ireland and plan on living here for the foreseeable, but I don't owe my country anything. I already earn an above-average salary yet after I have all of my bills/tax/loans paid, I have roughly €900 to last me the rest of the month. I'm not complaining but that's the reality.

you are clearly complaining. you need to use your head and then you can have a lot more left over at the end of the month. you need to be your own boss to make the money im talking about, you dont need any skills or even a college education really.

dennyire

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Can anyone who is in or was in the Defence Forces give their opinion on this?

To me it seems a little insulting to reduce a skilled and challenging job to a kind of daycare for 18 year olds "to sort them out and teach them some respect".

Is there really that much of a demand in the Defence Forces for tens of thousands of unskilled and less motivated enlisted, that will be finishing their conscription shortly after they've learned anything worthwhile?

They dont need to go to war
They dont need to go to the Lebanon
They dont need to learn to shoot
All they need is growing up for a year and becoming proper citizens.

gibgodsman

pgj2015 wrote: »

yes, you would be 22. what big difference would that make? I started college at 22. lots start it in their 30's.

You take a year out of education to do military service, good luck getting back into the routine of education, I like a lot of people I know did it straight through from school to college without a break. Most who take a break never end up going to college, that is a fact, every single person I knew who did the "Take a year break before college" never went to college, ended up working retail or something and are stuck there because they now cannot afford to give it up to go to college

pgj2015

gibgodsman wrote: »

You take a year out of education to do military service, good luck getting back into the routine of education, I like a lot of people I know did it straight through from school to college without a break. Most who take a break never end up going to college, that is a fact, every single person I knew who did the "Take a year break before college" never went to college, ended up working retail or something and are stuck there because they now cannot afford to give it up to go to college

I took 4 years out. 1 year out is nothing. sure transition year is a year out. if college education is for you, you will end up doing it at some point.

CrankyHaus

dennyire wrote: »

They dont need to go to war
They dont need to go to the Lebanon
They dont need to learn to shoot
All they need is growing up for a year and becoming proper citizens.

So how would it be "military service" if it does not include military elements?

king_of_mayo

gibgodsman wrote: »

You take a year out of education to do military service, good luck getting back into the routine of education, I like a lot of people I know did it straight through from school to college without a break. Most who take a break never end up going to college, that is a fact, every single person I knew who did the "Take a year break before college" never went to college, ended up working retail or something and are stuck there because they now cannot afford to give it up to go to college

I started college a week after my 17th birthday, which was ridiculous. Finished at 21, then had the time to take a year out and work things out. Came back to a masters with a fresh mind and appreciation of learning.

dennyire

CrankyHaus wrote: »

So how would it be "military service" if it does not include military elements?

The Milatary regime without the violence

El Tarangu

king_of_mayo wrote: »

1) It'll be some service to the state. General work, or hsopital or army...


3) We're giving a huge leg up to the young people. Think of all you'd learn in 3 years, then uni and life. Or you might find your calling and do a trade or whatever. You'll be housed, fed, paid and learn something. It's win win.

Perhaps you would give up your own job for 3 years to provide 'some service to the state', set a good example? You'd be housed, fed, and you'd learn something - why restrict this great opportunity to the under-25's?

king_of_mayo

El Tarangu wrote: »

Perhaps you would give up your own job for 3 years to provide 'some service to the state', set a good example? You'd be housed, fed, and you'd learn something - why restrict this great opportunity to the under-25's?

As alluded to, I wished it was in place then. Would have done a heap better than forcing kids to choose their one "free" shot at what uni course they want. The amount of people who just acted like college was an extension of secondary was laughable.

But I'm glad you agree it's a good idea.

CrankyHaus

dennyire wrote: »

The Milatary regime without the violence

So our Defence Budget will not in fact go towards the defence of Ireland but will instead be spent on imposing a "Milatary [sic] regime" on all 18 year olds to satisfy the yearning for discipline (imposed only on others of course) of the dennyire's of this country?

You're really selling this.

banie01

No. The justification for conscription be it for military service or "volunteer" service is no longer really available.

From the early 19th century through to the end of the 20th there was a feeling that mobilisation and training of a large body of military aged men would allow rapid expansion of an army.

That's a hangover from days when Nationalistic fervour played a large part in war.
It also is predicated on the belief that numbers matter, boots on the ground were how wars were won.

We have no immediate threat that requires a large pool of trained manpower.
Training conscripts and maintaining readiness and combat ability is a very hard and very expensive thing to do.
Those armies that do have large conscription, generally have 2 separate and distinct cadres.
1 operational, professional and at full readiness.
The other a training group dedicated to building a degree of discipline and competence rather than actual capabilities.

If we are going to throw money at our defence forces?
If much prefer the Navy and Aer corps to get it.

Retain the sailors we have, build up our crew numbers and ensure good patrol readiness.
Buy the EPV.

For the Aer corps, buy a primary radar, enhance or current airspace protection capabilities and build towards acquiring a genuine air defence capacity.

I'd also like to see our SAR function revert to the Aer Corps along with enhanced air ambulance and Garda support roles.

If there is money to be spaffed about, spend it on actual capability rather than some perceived improvement that national service as an experiment might bring!

One would think that if national service offered such social benefits?
Everybody would be doing it!

But anyway, what harm could come from slum clearing young lads from crime afflicted neighbourhoods in to military service?
Giving them training in small unit tactics? Planning? Small arms and 1st aid?
Before turning back out into society 2yrs later to the same places they came from?

average hero

Yeah I think we should have mandatory military service with an opt-out to do some civil work if wanted by that individual. This is similar to what Germany had a few years ago.

The benefits are that it would instill discipline in a large cohort of the populace. As a nation, Irish people are not particularly disciplined. Other benefits is that it could potentially increase civic pride which would have it's own positives. It could potentially improve the health and fitness of the general populace.

While there could be some potential economic drawback from it, if the individuals were deployed appropriately (across both military and civil work streams), it could improve society and reduce any potential economic drawbacks.

I'm not overly invested in it, just think it would be a good idea is all.

whisky_galore

Sardonicat wrote: »

We could just pay our soldiers better. Make it an attractive career option that attracts the kind of person that doesn't require 'sorting out'. Why would you want gougers in our army?

Teach them discipline and how to use firearms properly, useful life skills for bank jobs and petrol station hold ups later on.

pgj2015

whisky_galore wrote: »

Teach them discipline and how to use firearms properly, useful life skills for bank jobs and petrol station hold ups later on.

some people just have no faith in others.

whisky_galore

pgj2015 wrote: »

some people just have no faith in others.

Damn straight.

ShatterAlan

king_of_mayo wrote: »

All citizens should be required to do 3 years service to the State. It may be in the military, hospitals or a general work group. This will help people have a better sense of civic pride and understand hard work. Also could help train people. Like imagine you sign for the general work group, and they're like ok you're gonna help with forest preservation then that's a skill you have right there for civilian life. Same with mechanics and brickies.

If you refuse, you get 10 years in prison.

Service to the State?


FCUK the State. I don't owe the state anything. If I want to work, fine, I'll work and pay my taxes for the upkeep of basic services. If I was to completely drop out and not work and not participate in society and live in the wilderness and live off the land and do some work for a local farmer in return for potatoes or eggs or even a few quid that's my prerogative as a free human being. The state doesn't own me.

SixtaWalthers

If you ask this question to me few years or even months ago, I would say no but in this current situation where we see great uncertainty and tense situation between many countries like China and the US then I would say definitely yes. It doesn't help in critical situations but also in the public interest.

YellowBucket

average hero wrote: »

.
The benefits are that it would instill discipline in a large cohort of the populace. As a nation, Irish people are not particularly disciplined.

I’m not sure our being not particularly disciplined is a bad thing! We’ve an overly disciplined history in the school system and even today we’ve schools that are much, more more regimented than most of our continental counterparts.

I went to school in France and coming back here was like I had entered some kind of twilight zone of a really sh1te version of Hogwarts run by wannabe drill sergeants and all in an extremely impractical, synthetic, dry clean only uniform that the nuns must have designed to make you as ugly as possible to keep women away from ya!

School here had the vibe of some kind of prison to it.

The LAST thing Ireland needs is a further spell of discipline. We’ve had way too much of it to the point that I think it hampers creativity and entrepreneurship here in a way we don’t even realise.

ShatterAlan

pgj2015 wrote: »

They woudln't be sent abroad to lebanon or syria etc but would be used in the unlikely event we are ever invaded, that is what out army is a defence force. so the chances of any of them being hurt would be extremely low. I just happen to be over 25, that doesnt mean I cant have an opinion on something like this, who do you think makes most decisions like this in other countries? older politicians well over 25. also if Ireland was ever in a war and people were conscripted I would be first in line to join up, im being totally honest here.

Armies exist for 2 purposes.


1. As a tool for imperial conquest for resources (usually by Western powers)


2. As a tool to defend against imperial conquest.


Ireland has shown itself to be quite handy at defending against imperialism/colonialism and if the need arises I'm certain that our penchant for asymmetric warfare will be called upon again. A standing army of conscripts is pointless.

CrankyHaus

YellowBucket wrote: »

I’m not sure our being not particularly disciplined is a bad thing! We’ve an overly disciplined history in the school system and even today we’ve schools that are much, more more regimented than most of our continental counterparts.

I went to school in France and coming back here was like I had entered some kind of twilight zone of a really sh1te version of Hogwarts run by wannabe drill sergeants and all in an extremely impractical, synthetic, dry clean only uniform that the nuns must have designed to make you as ugly as possible to keep women away from ya!

School here had the vibe of some kind of prison to it.

The LAST thing Ireland needs is a further spell of discipline. We’ve had way too much of it to the point that I think it hampers creativity and entrepreneurship here in a way we don’t even realise.

This is actually an interesting issue.
People tend to conflate enforced discipline with a culture of social responsbility.


Militaries can inculcate both but they're not the same thing, even if there is some overlap.


I've noticed that certain European countries that seem to have a better culture of social responsibility have less overt discipline. We went on a school trip to one where our minds were blown by a smoothly functioning public transport system with no turnstiles or controls, "How is it possible?" we asked, "everybody would just not pay". Meanwhile the school we exchanged with lacked uniforms and was generally more easy going while porn mags were sold from kiosks on the street. Conversely the countries you visit with the most overbearing policing tend to have the least social responsibility.

king_of_mayo

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Armies exist for 2 purposes.


1. As a tool for imperial conquest for resources (usually by Western powers)


2. As a tool to defend against imperial conquest.


Ireland has shown itself to be quite handy at defending against imperialism/colonialism and if the need arises I'm certain that our penchant for asymmetric warfare will be called upon again. A standing army of conscripts is pointless.

The Irish Army's main role in recent decades has been

3) peace mission

and

4) defending the State against a local armed insurgency.

ShatterAlan

jonnny68 wrote: »

Absolutely this should happen, a large percentage of youths nowadays have no respect for anything or anyone, dragged up scumbags who think they are entitled to anything with no morals or values, a stint in the army would instil manners into them,.

This is bollocks.


What is the "large percentage"?


Sure, there are scrotes causing trouble but what is the percentage of all teenagers?


Of the 10's of thousands of Irish kids who do their junior cert each year how many go on to do the Leaving cert and try to make something of themselves as opposed to those who gather in gangs terrorising the community. OF the numbers who do their Leaving Cert what percentage go onto college or gainful employment or decide to travel the world or try and start a business as opposed to those who opt for a life of scumbaggery?

ShatterAlan

king_of_mayo wrote: »

And the general work group (non-military) could be sent abroad too to help out with foreign development. They get a chance to see the world, do good in needy countries and we get the hard respect on the international stage and recognition, and they come out of it with skills, money and the drive to further themselves.

They can do that by volunteering to join the Peace Corps or any number of international charities and aid organisations.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

pgj2015 wrote: »

I think we should. Our soldier numbers have fallen a lot over the last decade due to poor pay mainly. so if everyone under say 25 had to do 1 year in the army at least we up our soldier numbers. It also wouldn't do any harm to instill some discipline into some of the youth of the country.

I have talked to people from countries where they had mandatory military service and some of them told me they were very wild before they took part and it changed them for the better.

No, because we live in a (supposedly) free country.

You can't force people to join the military: the either want to do it, or it's not going to happen. And the army doesn't want unmotivated people to discipline.

Community service or national service otuside of the military with a range of options, I would consider.

ShatterAlan

pgj2015 wrote: »

what you dont seem to understand is the army can change the young hooligans into disciplined men.

Really? How many former British squaddies get out and are even worse thugs than when they went in...and they volunteered.

El Tarangu

king_of_mayo wrote: »

As alluded to, I wished it was in place then. Would have done a heap better than forcing kids to choose their one "free" shot at what uni course they want. The amount of people who just acted like college was an extension of secondary was laughable.

But I'm glad you agree it's a good idea.

What taxes do you think should be increased/spending programmes cut to fund the this expansion of 180k new recruits into the Irish army?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

pgj2015 wrote: »

some people just have no faith in others.

From the poster who said "It also wouldn't do any harm to instill some discipline into some of the youth of the country."

If you had faith in others you wouldn't be suggesting military service.

Pauliedragon

pgj2015 wrote: »

you could make anyone who doesn't pay higher tax, that might change their mind.

I know probably 10 people on the dole who work full time. Revenue aren't the best at keeping an eye on tax dodging individuals.

Dravokivich

king_of_mayo wrote: »

No, not at all. Remarkable to read it that way.

Eh, why employ someone, if the state is going to send people to you, to do the work? You don't remember that happening recently where people were offered work experience, to stack shelves?

king_of_mayo

El Tarangu wrote: »

What taxes do you think should be increased/spending programmes cut to fund the this expansion of 180k new recruits into the Irish army?

Army, hospital, general work. Well there'll be no dole for all of those for starters! Nor need for current training schemes etc as they'll all be rolled into this. It's good that you're onto the phase of working out the logistics of it.

It's like when we say "we don't want old people to die of cold", we then start discussing how to fund.

El Tarangu

pgj2015 wrote: »

we used to have 10,000 soldiers, I think we have only 7,000 now. there are a lot leaving as the pay is so bad so military service would boost the numbers.

How is the defence budget going to pay for its conscript army of 60k (if military service is one year) or 180k (if it will be for 3 years, as some posters have suggested) if it can't entice 10k to remain now?

Though if we are forcing people to serve in the army, you could just pick ten thousand people at random and force them to serve in the army - there would be no problem with people leaving over the low pay if they were forbidden to leave in the first place.

king_of_mayo

Dravokivich wrote: »

Eh, why employ someone, if the state is going to send people to you, to do the work? You don't remember that happening recently where people were offered work experience, to stack shelves?

Current work place takes on interns (software dev) for Summers. They're not replacing anyone's jobs and indeed at the start cost a proper dev's time. I mean that's the nature of training.

Dravokivich

pgj2015 wrote: »

some people just have no faith in others.

You're the one who thinks everyone is lacking discpline. If anyone has a debt of faith in others, ITS YOU!

king_of_mayo wrote: »

Current work place takes on interns (software dev) for Summers. They're not replacing anyone's jobs and indeed at the start cost a proper dev's time. I mean that's the nature of training.

The state sponsored interns during the recession, it took longer for people to get back into full time permenent employment because companies didn't need to actually get staff themselves. Boards was chock a block full of people complaining about it at the time.

pgj2015

El Tarangu wrote: »

How is the defence budget going to pay for its conscript army of 60k (if military service is one year) or 180k (if it will be for 3 years, as some posters have suggested) if it can't entice 10k to remain now?

Though if we are forcing people to serve in the army, you could just pick ten thousand people at random and force them to serve in the army - there would be no problem with people leaving over the low pay if they were forbidden to leave in the first place.

10,000 troops in 2008, 7,000 troops now. what is to say that wont drop further? 4,000 troops in 2025.

El Tarangu

king_of_mayo wrote: »

Army, hospital, general work.

The entire Irish public service is 304k; you are proposing to increase it by more than half (all of whom would be inexperienced, unqualified and a great many of whom would be, I imagine, unmotivated, given that they are being forced to do it).

Given that I think that there are, as with any large bureaucracy, probably already an existing percentage of Irish public servants who are under-employed, I imagine that expanding their ranks so drastically with an ever-rotating intake of people who are only passing time before they can get out of there would do anything to address this issue.

pgj2015

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

From the poster who said "It also wouldn't do any harm to instill some discipline into some of the youth of the country."

If you had faith in others you wouldn't be suggesting military service.

I have faith it would change a lot of people and no one can deny there are plenty of trouble makers in the country. that other poster has no faith that people can change, I do.

king_of_mayo

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0717/1154020-unemployment-youth-covid-19/

We're currently paying 90,000 young people to do nothing.

But we can't pay them while they get trained, do some work and skill up... Ok...

El Tarangu

pgj2015 wrote: »

10,000 troops in 2008, 7,000 troops now. what is to say that wont drop further? 4,000 troops in 2025.

Why not pay 10k professional soldiers more money; you could triple their salaries, and it will still cost a lot less than paying for the giant conscript army that you are proposing.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

Feck the military... I think we should introduce a real-life version of the hunger games for the nation's wayward youths!

... I'm just imagining bus loads of terrified scangers arriving gagged and blindfolded. Opening day - Blanchardstown Vs Tallaght ! The big city scanger derby! :P

skooterblue2

Collie D wrote: »

I'm guessing you're not under 25?

It is more difficult to train people for military life post 25 and learning curve seriously decreases for the majority of people after 25. This is generally acknowledged world wide. Yes there are the very few that buck the trend (before I get criticized by all the mature students at university) but vast majority post 25 are unsuitable. That is why there are many many armies that have cut off after certain ages.

B.A._Baracus

pgj2015 wrote: »

The UK doesn't have mandatory military service. I know it is 33 for their army but that is a different thing.

No. Me saying early 30s was referencing the cut off point.

Dude you have to be trolling at this point.

saabsaab

A good idea that with an option of non military service for those against it. Would do no harm. I am too old for it now but would have enjoyed it at 17-20.

skooterblue2

Sardonicat wrote: »

We could just pay our soldiers better. Make it an attractive career option that attracts the kind of person that doesn't require 'sorting out'. Why would you want gougers in our army?

There is nothing wrong with the intake into the army it exodus of Technical NCO's and Officers that are the problem. The Pensions and gratuity have been cut so much that Industry is much easier and better paid with less duties and details.

Dravokivich

king_of_mayo wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0717/1154020-unemployment-youth-covid-19/

We're currently paying 90,000 young people to do nothing.

But we can't pay them while they get trained, do some work and skill up... Ok...

No we're not.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

pgj2015 wrote: »

10,000 troops in 2008, 7,000 troops now. what is to say that wont drop further? 4,000 troops in 2025.

So, use the money earmarked for military spending and actually pay those who WANT to be there more!

pgj2015 wrote: »

I have faith it would change a lot of people and no one can deny there are plenty of trouble makers in the country. that other poster has no faith that people can change, I do.

You some "some people just have no faith in others" - now you say you faith in it [the service] - your faith is in the idea, not the people.

Again: if you have faith in people changing, you won't suggest military service. If you have NO faith in them changing, you will.

skooterblue2

king_of_mayo wrote: »

All citizens should be required to do 3 years service to the State. It may be in the military, hospitals or a general work group. This will help people have a better sense of civic pride and understand hard work. Also could help train people. Like imagine you sign for the general work group, and they're like ok you're gonna help with forest preservation then that's a skill you have right there for civilian life. Same with mechanics and brickies.

If you refuse, you get 10 years in prison.

I have actually see it from 2nd perspectives from French and Polish perspectives. My french friends (it was 20 years ago when they were dodging french national service) were studying in Ireland to be studying too long to make them ineligible for service.
In Poland, if you are not going to University, congratulations you are heading for army training unless medically unfit. I only know of one who was medically unfit and he was a right bunny boiler.

I think the worst thing for someone is to leave school at 18 with no plan for the rest of their lives except to dodge the social welfare officer. Damage done then may never be undone.

If you are in college or following a trade you get a stay of service. The wealthy ALWAYS find a way out it. Doesnt matter who it is Boney spurs (Trump), being sent to mothballed squadrons (Dubya). Its like jury duty, if you are smart enough you can get out of it.

skooterblue2

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

The army isn't about going around blowing bubbles and picking daisies. Yes the Irish army are peace keepers but it's the army. People can get seriously hurt. People can die. It's an army.

So there you are thinking how how other people should risk their health and life while, let's be honest, you scratch your arse?

You have more chance of being killed on the farm than you have in the Irish army.

skooterblue2

Del2005 wrote: »

Why would we want to pay people to be cannon fodder?Unless we massively invest in our military, which isn't going to happen, any invading army will wipe out our troops in no time. We are better off disbanding the army and aer corps and than turning it into a conscript army

Do you think the Irish Defence Forces sit around all day waiting for Russia to invade? There are loads of other duties to be done. Coastal maritime patrol, Search and Rescue, EOD, Ministerial air transport, Air Ambulance, aiding civil power, disaster relief etc. Loads of duties.

You have no idea how the system works.