Should Ireland have mandatory military service?

king_of_mayo

elefant wrote: »

Are you proposing the elimination of state taxes to go along with the plan for years of service?

Well going by your argument, the people most likely to not do their service and leave, are the same ones who'd leave to pay lower taxes elsewhere. If you've no loyalty, nor civic pride, then why wouldn't you just hop on a plane to some no/low tax place rather than stay in Ireland?

king_of_mayo

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

A great country for whom? What makes it so fantastic, in your opinion?

You've won some of the top payouts of the genetic lottery by being born here. Fact.

joe40

Doctors room ghost wrote: »

It would help take the no good,entitled,lay abouts off the streets and give them something to do for the day instead of going around stealing from people who are away at work.a purpose to get up in the morning and a feeling of worth perhaps.

What if they refuse, what are the sanctions?

Our prisons are full of actual criminals, so prison is not an option if 1000s of people refuse.

60 to 70, 000 kids in a typical year group. A scheme like this would cost millions to implement, impossible to police.

It is just not workable.

LawBoy2018

king_of_mayo wrote: »

You've won some of the top payouts of the genetic lottery by being born here. Fact.

The genetic lottery? Have you never been to Cavan?

Doctors room ghost

Hoop66 wrote: »

Military service is a bad idea. Build up your army and sooner or later you start looking for something to use it on.

A much better idea would be some sort of civic service, as other posters have suggested. Don't make it mandatory, but make the benefits of doing it very appealing. Like free university or trade school, something like that. Make Citizen Service a badge of honour, something people are proud of having done.

How would you make it any more appealing than the current situation?
At the minute they have free money for laying around doing nothing.a hap scheme then for a free house,fuel allowance,children’s allowance etc.
And don’t forget the Christmas bonus.
It pays them not to work

king_of_mayo

joe40 wrote: »

What if they refuse, what are the sanctions?

Our prisons are full of actual criminals, so prison is not an option if 1000s of people refuse.

60 to 70, 000 kids in a typical year group. A scheme like this would cost millions to implement, impossible to police.

It is just not workable.

The general work group can build more prisons. And other state infrastructure. And let's be real, it's not gonna be 1000s who refuse. They'll weasel out to other countries. And good ridance.

Doctors room ghost

joe40 wrote: »

What if they refuse, what are the sanctions?

Our prisons are full of actual criminals, so prison is not an option if 1000s of people refuse.

60 to 70, 000 kids in a typical year group. A scheme like this would cost millions to implement, impossible to police.

It is just not workable.

The same lay abouts are already costing millions joe and they going nowhere

elefant

king_of_mayo wrote: »

Well going by your argument, the people most likely to not do their service and leave, are the same ones who'd leave to pay lower taxes elsewhere. If you've no loyalty, nor civic pride, then why wouldn't you just hop on a plane to some no/low tax place rather than stay in Ireland?

Because Ireland is a nice place to live.

king_of_mayo wrote: »

The general work group can build more prisons.

But at this stage it might not be!

Cordell

I'm originally from a country that used to have it, so let me give you some pointers:
It's expensive, very expensive to have a mandatory military service. If all that you need is more soldiers, then hire more, make the pay better, it will still be much cheaper than mandatory service.
It does not make you a better man. Discipline in the army means detention, and we all know how better people become after a stint in prison.
Usually you were to serve when you turned 18 and if you were out of school. So, if you just finished your studies, instead of going to work and pay taxes you were punished to do the service at a cost for the taxpayer.
There was a chance to either shoot someone else or yourself, and I'm not talking about accidents. There's everything there to trigger a breakdown in people that are not exactly stable to begin with.

The only "benefit" is the oversized organization paying wages from the taxpayer moneys and artificially decreasing the unemployment numbers, but we already have the HSE for that.

touts

Not mandatory military service. Our Army is the single biggest waste of money in the state at the moment and should have fully disbanded back then the IMF came in but they bottled it.

However mandatory Community service. That is something that should be looked into. A year doing good community focused work would hurt no one.

king_of_mayo

Can easily imagine a subset of the group.

You join up and list your interests. Say you put down that you want to learn more about IT. Ok, well you'll get classes then some intern work at various Gov bodies, you'll get to teach the elderly (and disadvantaged) in special classes how to use the internet etc. After your service, you'll have amassed so much experience you'll be on fire (also you'll do plenty of non-IT stuff too, just put there as example).

Dravokivich

king_of_mayo wrote: »

The general work group can build more prisons. And other state infrastructure. And let's be real, it's not gonna be 1000s who refuse. They'll weasel out to other countries. And good ridance.

The gulags weren't all that popular, why would we recreate them?

What of the people working those jobs as a career already? Does everyone just start becoming supervisors?

king_of_mayo

Dravokivich wrote: »

The gulags weren't all that popular, why would we recreate them?

What of the people working those jobs as a career already? Does everyone just start becoming supervisors?

Part of government construction contracts will require the developer to take on a certain number of Service interns. Maybe have a few brickies, sparks etc.

IT company comes along for juicy contract. Ok, you need to take some of our Service people as interns.

Etc etc.

elefant

king_of_mayo wrote: »

Can easily imagine a subset of the group.

You join up and list your interests. Say you put down that you want to learn more about IT. Ok, well you'll get classes then some intern work at various Gov bodies, you'll get to teach the elderly (and disadvantaged) in special classes how to use the internet etc. After your service, you'll have amassed so much experience you'll be on fire (also you'll do plenty of non-IT stuff too, just put there as example).

Yeah, I'd say cutting edge tech companies will be fighting each other off to hire our best and brightest after that crash course.

Dravokivich

king_of_mayo wrote: »

Part of government construction contracts will require the developer to take on a certain number of Service interns. Maybe have a few brickies, sparks etc.

IT company comes along for juicy contract. Ok, you need to take some of our Service people as interns.

Etc etc.

So, you're taking jobs from people looking to get into that work in the first place.

YellowBucket

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

A great country for whom? What makes it so fantastic, in your opinion? Is it the fact that they're fortunate enough to pay €800-900/month to rent a box room in Dublin with random strangers in order to study at third level? Or the fact that a bus from Ballina to Dublin takes 5 hours? Or the fact that unless you live in a large town/city, you mightn't even have access to broadband? Or maybe it's the fact that unless you receive a grant, you will be 40K in debt after a 4 year course in university? Or the fact that Irish people are the only citizens within the EU without a second language? In all likelihood, it's probably the fact that unless a Gen X/millennial inherits a home from their parents, they will most likely be renting in a precarious rental sector for the rest of their lives.

Young people owe this country nothing.

It’s a mixed bag, as are most countries. Overall it’s fairly decent, other than the housing bubble issues.

However, the country is pleasant because we make it pleasant as a population through economic activity, social structures, having good civil liberties and rights based systems and generally being able to have fun and enjoy life.

It’s not a very militaristic country and it’s also not very bogged down on notions of disciplined service and that’s actually a good thing in my view.

Compulsory military service tended to be about finding cannon fodder for various empires and places that spent all their time war mongering.

If you look at the attitudes to the draft in the USA, it’s about submitting and being willing to be put in the front lines by the country, and it’s sold as patriotism and with notions of the noble soldier, while the likes or Trump have enough money to get a bone spur diagnosis or become otherwise unavailable.

pgj2015

king_of_mayo wrote: »

People flash their passports abroad, get all the backing of the Irish state, know that if sht hits the fan, they've got your back. Lose your job at home? State's got you. Someone broke a contract with you? State's got you.

And then when asked to contribute to the state, and get stuff in return, they faint and are on the first flight to wasterville.

if you are unemployed in Ireland you can get the dole for 4 years while in college. if you are unemployed in Ireland you can start a business while getting 100% of your dole for the first year and 75% of the dole for the second year plus 2,500 euro for business equipment etc. I have benefited from the 2 above schemes and am eternally grateful for them. some people just take take take and don't appreciate all this country gives them.

In the USA that so called great country, you get social welfare for 1 year of you life then you are on your own, if you don't have health insurance you are in trouble.

king_of_mayo

elefant wrote: »

Yeah, I'd say cutting edge tech companies will be fighting each other off to hire our best and brightest after that crash course.

Read my other post. The nitpicking is fantastic.

Pauliedragon

We can't even force people to stay in the country or wear a mask for 2 mins on a bus. What chance do we of forcing people into the army.

king_of_mayo

Dravokivich wrote: »

So, you're taking jobs from people looking to get into that work in the first place.

No, not at all. Remarkable to read it that way.

pgj2015

LawBoy2018 wrote: »

A great country for whom? What makes it so fantastic, in your opinion? Is it the fact that they're fortunate enough to pay €800-900/month to rent a box room in Dublin with random strangers in order to study at third level? Or the fact that a bus from Ballina to Dublin takes 5 hours? Or the fact that unless you live in a large town/city, you mightn't even have access to broadband? Or maybe it's the fact that unless you receive a grant, you will be 40K in debt after a 4 year course in university? Or the fact that Irish people are the only citizens within the EU without a second language? In all likelihood, it's probably the fact that unless a Gen X/millennial inherits a home from their parents, they will most likely be renting in a precarious rental sector for the rest of their lives.

Young people owe this country nothing.

would you rather live in Syria or Poland? you should be grateful for what you have here. you are in a great country if you have a bit of get up and go about you. I don't buy that about renting for the rest of your life. 5 years ago i was unemployed, had about 700 euro in my account. today im looking to buy a house outright with no mortgage, if I can do it anyone can.

king_of_mayo

pgj2015 wrote: »

some people just take take take and don't appreciate all this country gives them.

Really cool to hear about your story and statement jumps out at me. It's an additional benefit of service, we get rid of all those wasters!

I'd nearly go as far to say that the state should pay for their one way Ryanair flight out...

pgj2015

Pauliedragon wrote: »

We can't even force people to stay in the country or wear a mask for 2 mins on a bus. What chance do we of forcing people into the army.

you could make anyone who doesn't pay higher tax, that might change their mind.

king_of_mayo

Or the fact that Irish people are the only citizens within the EU without a second language?

I missed this gem. So after 12 or so years of compulsory Irish, and most people tend to 5 or so years of French/German/Spanish... provided by the State... the fact that most people don't bother their ar5e building on this is the fault of the State... Gimme gimme gimme

Purgative

18 months/ 2 years state service has a lot to commend it.


- not solely military but working in care homes, hospital porters, waste recycling, some form of social service.


- not paid a huge amount but having their food, lodging, work clothing provided.


- some serious accreditation at completion.

joe40

People hear ideas like this and immediately think about the relatively small number of teenagers that engage in anti social behavior, and how it might sort them out.

The fact is the vast majority of our teenagers are fine, and well behaved, and disciplined.

I do however think some sort of national scheme where kids are given the opportunity to participate in national service type work which would benefit the community has some benefit.

Maybe this could then be used to gain leaving cert points or University, some sort of benefit anyway.

I think the idea of compulsory work/service would be a nuisance. Have you ever worked with a lazy incompetent person. They slow everyone down. No organization would want them anywhere near.

This type of service won't work if it is forced.

Doctors room ghost

Purgative wrote: »

18 months/ 2 years state service has a lot to commend it.


- not solely military but working in care homes, hospital porters, waste recycling, some form of social service.


- not paid a huge amount but having their food, lodging, work clothing provided.


- some serious accreditation at completion.

They would all have to be garda vetted to see are they suitable for some of them jobs.
I wouldn’t be putting Jack the Ripper working in a nursing home.

Strumms

king_of_mayo wrote: »

Legally we're all "forced" to take a few years of education. You don't get a choice. Most people (non-cranks) agree that's a good thing.

Yes, as children, not as adults. Even at that, at 16 you are enabled to leave if you so wish. As a minor you dont have to finish school nor do you have to go to college. Adults can and are expected to make choices, informed choices about their lives. Without any other fuçker having a say, government or otherwise.

gibgodsman

Nah sorry, not needed or wanted here

Only reason I could see for it would be for any underage person who commits a crime should be forced to do 1-2 years Military Service
Other than that, no, I went through 4 years of college and was finished by 21, I would not have been able to do that with Mandatory Military Service

pgj2015

gibgodsman wrote: »

Nah sorry, not needed or wanted here

Only reason I could see for it would be for any underage person who commits a crime should be forced to do 1-2 years Military Service
Other than that, no, I went through 4 years of college and was finished by 21, I would not have been able to do that with Mandatory Military Service

yes, you would be 22. what big difference would that make? I started college at 22. lots start it in their 30's.