Murder at the Cottage | Sky

Gamb!t

chooseusername wrote: »

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Or if walking drunk the difference is staggering.

It's 2.5 miles walking (50 mins no shortcuts) or driving (4-5 mins).
2 miles as the crow flies.

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This should be made a sticky in the first post.

crackcrack30

Sorry for quote ... I went off on a tangent.

Mackinac

Deleted User wrote: »

If I remember correctly no one heard Shirley continuously blowing the car horn when she found the body she had to run back to the house to get help, also I wouldn't imagine there would have been much screaming, I think one blow from the rock would leave a woman totally dazed or unconscious.
Also, why would the person use the rock and then use the block, it must have been obvious that the damage was done (imo). Were there 2 people at the gate?

The excuse of coming over Christmas week to get the heating fixed sounds ridiculous and untrue, was there ever confirmation that thos was a genuine reason, surely it would have been easier to just give a person access to do the work, no need for her to travel herself to sort it.

If the truth ever comes to light about this crime it would not surprise me that a man and woman were involved in this.

I don’t think the neighbours were involved however.

dublin49

with regard to why Sophie was outside house without keys ,Its plausible she saw murderer out the back and ran out the front knowingly pulling the door behind her on the basis she would be safer outdoors without keys so her potential attacker could not gain access to house with her.This would be the smart thing to do rather than be a captive in your own home where the attacker is in total control.

Polly701

Marie Farrells husband has also been charged with assault over the years... He was living locally. What do we know about his movements on the night? Presumably his wife can't give an alibi as she was out herself?

And the man who was alleged to be with Marie Farrell on the night.. He is surely a suspect too - out and about in the middle of the night in question?

EdHoven

Alfie Lyons and his partner bought their house 31 March 1995. I think someone said '96 earlier. Sophie had her place for two years already.
On the land registry the access road is marked as a right of way around the side of TduP property. In 2008 AL got a tiny sliver of land at the back of TduP property carved from its folio looking to reduce tension possibly...just speculation.
The access road crisscrosses different owners, folios, sometimes in two folios plenty of scope for disputes.

Mackwiss

nc6000 wrote: »

Dwyer comes across very poorly in both series, he thinks he's so clever. I'd love to see him try and explain the missing evidence etc.

The Gardai don't come out this looking too clever in general, I thought the clip outside of Brandon station where one on them seemed in a rush to make last orders in the pub was particularly cringe.

indeed... keep in mind this isn't the first or last time the Gardai does such a poor job.... remember the Kerry babies case from a decade before this as just one example...

john123470

Polly701 wrote: »

Could it be that Sophie looked out the window and saw Alfie at the gate in the early morning moonlight.. And thought I'm going to talk to him now about leaving this gate open - something that had annoyed them both on an ongoing basis. She walked down to the gate and they argued. He didn't set out to hit her but was enraged by this 'blow in, holidaymaker' telling him what to do with his gate.. One blow led to another - he 'lost it'.. He then went back up the hill - paused at her door to check if it was open, double check nobody else was there... And then back up to his partner who would have to go along with it or lose the life they has waited so long for - I know nothing about her. This is just a theory.. Like all the other theories.

He had a huge garden (a number of acres?) so would have gotten help.. That would not necessarily point to his fragility in itself..

The murder happened so close to their home... In an eerily quite place.. It is odd that they heard nothing at all - no screams, no shouting, no car engine.. It is often said that Bailey loves the sound of his own voice - did he commit this crime in complete silence??

Again.. I don't know who did it.. But the Guards were so blinkered in how they approached - it is an awful shame that they didn't investigate all possible scenarios. The 'evidence' against Bailey is shockingly flimsy.

Of all the plausible / implausible scenarios, this one seems at least worth serious consideration.
The fact that there was a running dispute between Sophie and Alfie about the gate is very hard to dismiss.

She is outraged about the gate and the fact that her house is being used while she is away, her sanctuary being violated.
She complains about "drug use" in the area.

When you are in dispute with neighbours - for whatever reason - it really colours your quality of life. I can imagine her being livid.

She was only there on a flying visit and possibly decided now was good a time as any to have it out with Alfie

She is having breakfast, sees Alfie at the gate .. decides to confront him. Her attire at the time suggests someone who rush-dressed to leave the house ..

From the little I have learned about Sophie thus far, she sounds like a lady who would not shy away from confrontation when necessary and give as good as she got.

Nobody about for miles except for a neighbour with whom you are having a serious dispute .. hmm

As guilty as the murderer/s who clobbered her to death are, Inspector Closeau-Dwyer and his gang are just as guilty for neglect of duty if not for aiding and abetting a crime

Heat_Wave

Where can we watch this back in Ireland?

Mackwiss

Heat_Wave wrote: »

Where can we watch this back in Ireland?

It's on NOW TV you can get a free 7 day trial with them

namloc1980

john123470 wrote: »

The fact that there was a running dispute between Sophie and Alfie about the gate is very hard to dismiss.

What's the evidence of this dispute over the gate being a fact? And that it was such a serious dispute that it could result in murder.

Azatadine

john123470 wrote: »

As guilty as the murderer/s who clobbered her to death are, Inspector Closeau-Dwyer and his gang are just as guilty for neglect of duty if not for aiding and abetting a crime

Inspector Closeau-Dwyer is right. That's exactly how he appears in both documentaries. How he ever rose to any position of authority is a bad indictment of the Gardai. Cringe.

Gussie Scrotch

namloc1980 wrote: »

What's the evidence of this dispute over the gate being a fact? And that it was such a serious dispute that it could result in murder.

Its been documented and discussed ( with links earlier in this thread ) The Observer magazine is one such source.

Whether it could result in murder is purely a matter of speculation.

namloc1980

Gussie Scrotch wrote: »

Its been documented and discussed ( with links earlier in this thread ) The Observer magazine is one such source.

Whether it could result in murder is purely a matter of speculation.

A single line in the Observer is hardly proof of anything. It doesn't even name the neighbours. Yet this single unverified line is taken as gospel.

Gussie Scrotch

namloc1980 wrote: »

A single line in the Observer is hardly proof of anything. It doesn't even name the neighbours. Yet this single unverified line is taken as gospel.

True, but is been mentioned by several sources, Gemma O'Doherty's hatchet job on the Guards mentions the "testy" relationship Sophie had with her neighbours and there are quite a few other sources.

But you're absolutely right, nobody can say, unequivocally, that there was a simmering row between Sophie and Alfie/Shirley.

All I would say is this: If there was ongoing friction between them, its a possibility that it could have boiled over and escalated. And that such a hypothetical scenario, would fit in with many of the known facts.

No more than that

Loafing Oaf

namloc1980 wrote: »

A single line in the Observer is hardly proof of anything. It doesn't even name the neighbours. Yet this single unverified line is taken as gospel.

By a literary man with AFAIK no great track record of investigative journalism. Could very well have been just passing on a bit of fourth-hand local tittle tattle.

john123470

Gussie Scrotch wrote: »

True, but is been mentioned by several sources, Gemma O'Doherty's hatchet job on the Guards mentions the "testy" relationship Sophie had with her neighbours and there are quite a few other sources.

But you're absolutely right, nobody can say, unequivocally, that there was a simmering row between Sophie and Alfie/Shirley.

All I would say is this: If there was ongoing friction between them, its a possibility that it could have boiled over and escalated. And that such a hypothetical scenario, would fit in with many of the known facts.

Exactly, it is no more than a possible scenario.

Although, the fact that Sophie "complained to Gardai about drug use in the area" would seem to indicate that she was in fact riled up about her neighbour

Unless ie. Alfie and his mates were blowing weed smoke in her windows, it shd not have bothered her

bemak

Polly701 wrote: »

I don't know who did it.. But all possibilities should be looked at.

Could it be that Sophie looked out the window and saw Alfie at the gate in the early morning moonlight.. And thought I'm going to talk to him now about leaving this gate open - something that had annoyed them both on an ongoing basis. She walked down to the gate and they argued. He didn't set out to hit her but was enraged by this 'blow in, holidaymaker' telling him what to do with his gate.. One blow led to another - he 'lost it'.. He then went back up the hill - paused at her door to check if it was open, double check nobody else was there... And then back up to his partner who would have to go along with it or lose the life they has waited so long for - I know nothing about her. This is just a theory.. Like all the other theories.

He had a huge garden (a number of acres?) so would have gotten help.. That would not necessarily point to his fragility in itself..

The murder happened so close to their home... In an eerily quite place.. It is odd that they heard nothing at all - no screams, no shouting, no car engine.. It is often said that Bailey loves the sound of his own voice - did he commit this crime in complete silence??

Again.. I don't know who did it.. But the Guards were so blinkered in how they approached - it is an awful shame that they didn't investigate all possible scenarios. The 'evidence' against Bailey is shockingly flimsy.

Remember as well that he was after a house party so he could be in the depths of a raging hangover so the last thing he'd want is an argument. Great theory though

Weddings ahoy

Gussie Scrotch wrote: »

True, but is been mentioned by several sources, Gemma O'Doherty's hatchet job on the Guards mentions the "testy" relationship Sophie had with her neighbours and there are quite a few other sources.

But you're absolutely right, nobody can say, unequivocally, that there was a simmering row between Sophie and Alfie/Shirley.

All I would say is this: If there was ongoing friction between them, its a possibility that it could have boiled over and escalated. And that such a hypothetical scenario, would fit in with many of the known facts.

No more than that

Anything Gemma O Doherty writes should be disregarded...oh god don't even get me started..

Re the guards , i really believe that if the murder had occurred almost anywhere other than remote west cork where there hadn't been another murder in living memory, than perhaps more care would have been taken over crime scene, forensics, chain of evidence etc, also if we had more than 1 pathologist covering Ireland perhaps time of death could have been timed down better to within a few hours not sometime between the hours stated, that would surely have ruled out or in the main suspect in this case, so many factors were in favor of the killer/killer's that night, and even though cold cases can be solved many years later, i really feel there is no where else to go with this one sadly

Weddings ahoy

bemak wrote: »

Remember as well that he was after a house party so he could be in the depths of a raging hangover so the last thing he'd want is an argument. Great theory though

How do you know he was after a house party ??

Mackwiss

bemak wrote: »

Remember as well that he was after a house party so he could be in the depths of a raging hangover so the last thing he'd want is an argument. Great theory though

Alfie, as mentioned before was unable even to stand at work anymore...

And there was no house party at all...

Alfie and wife where affected by this for years as it was mentioned in the early posts on this thread

This is all complete speculation on this thread now and just shows the power of mob mentality of keeping adding little non-factual details to a story. Just like it happened with IB in the several months and years after the murder...

In 100 pages from now Alfie will be a demon humanoid half man half goat eating drugs (since some goats ate his drugs)

chicorytip

dark crystal wrote: »

Well she knows him better than anybody else does. I suppose she feels there would have been certain signs if her long term partner had got out of bed in the middle of that night, walked for an hour up roads and boreens, battered a stranger to death, walked an hour back through the same roads and boreens, washed himself, scrubbed both his studio and home free of any incriminating DNA evidence and then calmly brought her tea in bed at 9am?

Do you think you'd notice something was a bit 'off' with your long term partner had they committed a random brutal murder just a matter of hours before? Perhaps in the 25 years that followed, a confession may have slipped out at some stage?

Like I said before, she should have left him in the April before the murder, but she didn't and stayed with him for a quarter of a decade after the fact, so unless you or I know something she doesn't, we would have to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she believes in his innocence for a good reason.

I think she is just totally dominated by and terrified of Bailey in a physical and mental sense and has become complicit in the charade of him maintaining his innocence for the past two decades. This is practically etched on her prematurely aged features. By the way, I think their recently announced "separation" is not genuine and simply a ruse concocted by him in order to garner some public sympathy.

thecretinhop

The other suspects included a German man who had been living in west Cork at the time but returned to Germany, where he took his own life, and a local “peeping Tom”.

bemak

Weddings ahoy wrote: »

How do you know he was after a house party ??

I've been dipping in and out of this thread so apologies if that was clarified. It's all hearsay anyway until hard evidence can point to a suspect. I'm enjoying reading the theories though. Sometimes the simplest explanation is more often or not the correct one and this one makes a lot of sense

Gussie Scrotch

Mackwiss wrote: »

Alfie, as mentioned before was unable even to stand at work anymore...

And there was no house party at all...

Alfie and wife where affected by this for years as it was mentioned in the early posts on this thread

This is all complete speculation on this thread now and just shows the power of mob mentality of keeping adding little non-factual details to a story. Just like it happened with IB in the several months and years after the murder...

In 100 pages from now Alfie will be a demon humanoid half man half goat eating drugs (since some goats ate his drugs)

No, nobody's saying Alfie did it. There is no direct evidence that implicates him. Its just being posed as possible scenario that would fit the facts as known. There are other possible scenarios that would also fit.

It is complete speculation yes, but there is total speculation and speculation within the known parameters.

And given that so much is unknown, of course people will speculate. That's really what this thread is.

john123470

Mackwiss wrote: »

This is all complete speculation on this thread now and just shows the power of mob mentality of keeping adding little non-factual details to a story. Just like it happened with IB in the several months and years after the murder...

In 100 pages from now Alfie will be a demon humanoid half man half goat eating drugs (since some goats ate his drugs)

It's a bit like the Japanese movie RASHOMON (1950) where 4 witnesses give different accounts of the murder of a man and the rape of his wife. The Director's point was that we shd even suspect what we have seen with our own eyes.

Short of a confession, I don't think the murderer will ever be found. And we will not discover him / her / them via discussion here. Meanwhile, all we have left is speculation and wondering out loud.

It is ok to correct those speculations if they are miscontrued but we are still no wiser.

The main takeaway I have got from watching both documentaries is how not to conduct a murder investigation

Mackwiss

Mackwiss wrote: »

Alfie, as mentioned before was unable even to stand at work anymore...

Not sure where this comes from.
There was a clip in one of the documentaries showing him walking towards the court when Bailey sued the papers. He seemed to be moving at a good pace then.

Bellbottoms

john123470 wrote: »

It's a bit like the Japanese movie RASHOMON (1950) where 4 witnesses give different accounts of the murder of a man and the rape of his wife. The Director's point was that we shd even suspect what we have seen with our own eyes.

Short of a confession, I don't think the murderer will ever be found. And we will not discover him / her / them via discussion here. Meanwhile, all we have left is speculation and wondering out loud.

It is ok to correct those speculations if they are miscontrued but we are still no wiser.

The main takeaway I have got from watching both documentaries is how not to conduct a murder investigation

Yes that head cop from Kerry. Had an awful smug head on him. The whole thing was a sh1te show. And he should of been fired. I don't understand how a gate goes missing. It's beyond belief.

Completely incompetent.

Would you even remember that IB brought you coffee at 9am that morning? Can't imagine him even doing that for Jules tbh, the other way around is more believable.
I think she genuinely loves him tbh, also there are loads of couples that would be much better off apart but feelings and circumstances make it difficult.

Sophie's family could also be much more forthcoming I think, they are sticking to their belief that IB did it and they're entitled to that but they could explain a lot of things to clarify other questions, eg what did she tell them about the neighbours, why did she feel the need to come over to get the heating fixed on Christmas week, why have they no problem that her husband didn't come after the murder regardless of them probably not getting along she was his young son's mother, surely he would want to know what happened, why don't they try and eliminate some theories that people hold? Also why aren't they challenging the garda investigation as much as IB?

I know everyone has secrets and skeletons but is there anyone involved it this whole tragic incident with any bit of credibility, it needs to be reopened fully and re investigated by some genuinely neutral department.

Henry...

monkeybutter wrote: »

i couldnt find anything on it anyway to say if that was the case

They do check stuff like this

Not sure on pregnancy specifically