Issues leaving job

gerard 180 · 26-03-2017 8:56am #1

Morning all

I decided to leave my job, which disappointed my boss.
I gave required 4 weeks notice.
Unable to get p45 or money owed having now left.

What can I do? Stressed beyond belief here.

Thanks

eurokev · 26-03-2017 9:29am

Did you ring your old boss about it?

What do you mean unable to get?

Are they being withheld, more info needed, far too vague a post

Cunning Alias · 26-03-2017 10:38am

Went through a nightmare with my old place.

They legally have to give you your P45, although they might drag their heels in getting it to you. It doesn't matter though. If you start a new job, just ring the tax office and explain the situation (no P45 yet) and give them the details of the new company.

It's worth checking that the payroll department have received your updated tax certificate a few weeks after you call the tax office, just to be sure.

Can't comment on the pay, as I got what I was owed but I would be very surprised if an employer tried to withhold pay(plus pay for whatever holidays were left)

gerard 180 · 26-03-2017 11:52am

Have tried and tried to contact boss but ignoring correspondence. On day I left I felt I was entitled to p45 but was told 'you ll get it when you ll get it'. Still no p45. Re pay I was owed arrears in weeks leading up to my departure. Boss kept saying I pay you tomorrow, tomorrow.. Now I am gone and money has not turned up surprise surprise

Avatar MIA · 26-03-2017 3:04pm

gerard 180 wrote: »

On day I left I felt I was entitled to p45

This assumption is wrong.

However, you are entitled to get your pay. You may want to consider visiting their place of work.

jelutong · 26-03-2017 3:15pm

Drop into a Citizens Information Centre.

ibarelycare · 27-03-2017 8:30am

Avatar MIA wrote: »

This assumption is wrong.

You are actually entitled to receive your P45 and your final pay on your date of termination. Realistically it doesn't always work this way, especially in bigger companies, but the law states that it should be issued immediately.

OP you should get onto the WRC about the pay you're owed.

amtc · 27-03-2017 10:43am

I only got my P45 once on the day I left. Being honest it was specially requested by my boss's boss as he was a very nasty man (one of the reasons why I left) and purposely said that he always wanted to hand it to me at my leaving do.

Every other time I've got my P45 next time payroll ran.

Avatar MIA · 27-03-2017 11:04am

ibarelycare wrote: »

You are actually entitled to receive your P45 and your final pay on your date of termination.

What law would this be?

ibarelycare · 27-03-2017 11:27am

Avatar MIA wrote: »

What law would this be?

Income Tax (Employments) (Consolidated) Regulations 2001, S.I. 559/2001 - Regulation 20.

(2) The employer shall make on the prescribed form 2 copies of the certificate required by paragraph (1) of this Regulation and shall deliver them to the employee on the date the employment ceases.

Avatar MIA · 27-03-2017 11:39am

ibarelycare wrote: »

Income Tax (Employments) (Consolidated) Regulations 2001, S.I. 559/2001 - Regulation 20.

I can see the confusion, but what that regulation relates to is not the P45. A P45 is the final tax position, and what that regulation entitles the employee is a position up to the last payment "which the last payment of emoluments was recorded on the tax deduction card and the cumulative emoluments at the date of that payment". Bolding is my doing.

In reality everyone waits for the P45. But, if you push an employer they'd need to give you a form that states your position up to your last pay. In practice I don't think anyone does.

ibarelycare · 27-03-2017 11:43am

Avatar MIA wrote: »

I can see the confusion, but what that regulation relates to is not the P45. A P45 is the final tax position, and what that regulation entitles the employee is a position up to the last payment "which the last payment of emoluments was recorded on the tax deduction card and the cumulative emoluments at the date of that payment". Bolding is my doing.

In reality everyone waits for the P45. But, if you push an employer they'd need to give you a form that states your position up to your last pay. In practice I don't think anyone does.

What the regulation is referring to IS the P45.

Even Citizens Information states that an employee should receive their P45 and final pay on the day their employment ends.

I know it's often not done in practice (not never though - in my experience there are many employers - particularly small ones - who will pay an employee and issue their P45 on their last day), I'm just saying it's what the employee is entitled to.

Avatar MIA · 27-03-2017 11:49am

ibarelycare wrote: »

What the regulation is referring to IS the P45.

Have you case law on that? Because a P45 is not mentioned, and the wording does not match to my understanding of what a P45 is, and therefore don't expect any case law upholding this being a P45. I think you'll find that's the reason it's rare an employer hands out a P45 on the date of cessation.

It looks like this regulation takes into account that it's impractical to calculate pay for a leaver on the date they leave.

You might want to contact Citizens advice and ask them what basis they consider that legislation is relating a P45.

ibarelycare · 27-03-2017 12:19pm

No I don't have any case law, but it's clear if you read the entire regulation that a P45 is what's being discussed, despite the Act referring to it as a "certificate".

If you still don't believe me:

Income Tax (Employments) Regulations 2008

Regulation 20 of the Income Tax (Employments) (Consolidated) Regulations, 2001 is amended to take account of a redesigned form P45, and introduces new rules for the deduction of tax where an employee recommences employment with the same employer within the same tax year.

Avatar MIA · 27-03-2017 12:57pm

ibarelycare wrote: »

No I don't have any case law, but it's clear if you read the entire regulation that a P45 is what's being discussed, despite the Act referring to it as a "certificate".

If you still don't believe me:

Income Tax (Employments) Regulations 2008

If it does refer to a P45 then it's very badly worded and only provides for a P45 to be completed up to the LAST payment recorded for the employee.

I'd personally rather wait for a final P45 that takes into account my final pay.

ibarelycare · 27-03-2017 1:18pm

Avatar MIA wrote: »

If it does refer to a P45 then it's very badly worded and only provides for a P45 to be completed up to the LAST payment recorded for the employee.

I'd personally rather wait for a final P45 that takes into account my final pay.

Because the final pay is supposed to be issued on the same day. Citizens Information states this. They also state that "If you have left work and you have not been paid or if your pay is less than the amount due to you, this is an unlawful deduction under the Payment of Wages Act."

Avatar MIA · 27-03-2017 1:30pm

ibarelycare wrote: »

Because the final pay is supposed to be issued on the same day. Citizens Information states this. They also state that "If you have left work and you have not been paid or if your pay is less than the amount due to you, this is an unlawful deduction under the Payment of Wages Act."

Why when we have legislation to look at are you referring to Citizens Information? Is what citizen's information say enforceable. The wording is as stated in statute.

"which the last payment of emoluments was recorded on the tax deduction card and the cumulative emoluments at the date of that payment".

ibarelycare wrote: »

Because the final pay is supposed to be issued on the same day. "

That's exactly what we're discussing.

I don't see where an employer is legally obliged to calculate the final pay owed to someone on the day someone leaves if it's outside the normal payroll procedure.

ibarelycare · 27-03-2017 1:46pm

I don't know where it's specifically written in an Act or if there is any case law that backs it up but it's not something I'm making up.

I've spoken to IPASS on it and they've said that the law states payment should be made on the employee's final day but it's not always done in practice and in their experience they haven't seen it enforced.

I was at a PAYE Modernisation workshop with Revenue about 6 weeks ago where it was discussed and where it was suggested that with the introduction of Real Time Reporting it was something that will be strictly enforced in the future.

I was at a seminar a few weeks ago with a KPMG payroll specialist where it was also discussed, and she asked those in the room (all payroll workers) who pays and issues P45s on an employee's final day, and who waits until the normal payroll run.

All anecdotal perhaps, but obviously there's some basis there.

Anyway this is completely off-topic and not helpful to the OP, whose best bet at this stage is to contact the WRC.

Avatar MIA · 27-03-2017 2:26pm

ibarelycare wrote: »

I don't know where it's specifically written in an Act or if there is any case law that backs it up but it's not something I'm making up.

I know you're not making it up, you've referred to the legislation. What is debatable is interpretation. IPASS is not a source that I'd defer to.

gerard 180 · 31-03-2017 8:44pm

Thanks for the feedback. To update re this situation, having spoken to revenue, they have served a p43 demand notice on employer to release p45 within 7 days or face prosecution. I was told by revenue official that employer has period of 2 weeks from date employment ceases to issue p45

gerard 180 · 04-05-2017 4:35pm

Hello all, situation still ongoing here, can I clarify (to be sure) who the responsibility for preparing and filing p45 ultimately lies with? Is it definitely the employer? At best I surely just have to list any overtime done etc

Kristopherus · 04-05-2017 4:46pm

gerard 180 wrote: »

Hello all, situation still ongoing here, can I clarify (to be sure) who the responsibility for preparing and filing p45 ultimately lies with? Is it definitely the employer? At best I surely just have to list any overtime done etc

Its the employer's duty to issue your P45 in a timely manner. Clearly he has not done so. I would report him to Revenue.

gerard 180 · 04-05-2017 4:50pm

Revenue been on this for long while now. Correspondence being ignored. They are saying all that they can do is issue requests themselves.

ibarelycare · 04-05-2017 4:54pm

Have you been paid or is he withholding that too?

gerard 180 · 04-05-2017 6:43pm

Withholding money also

SusieBlue · 05-05-2017 2:06pm

gerard 180 wrote: »

Revenue been on this for long while now. Correspondence being ignored. They are saying all that they can do is issue requests themselves.

Similar happened to me several years ago, my ex employer refused to hand over my P45 and I was owed about 1k in tax back which I couldn't claim without the P45.

It went on for almost 9 months, revenue were absolutely useless, kept sending out letters which were continually ignored. In the end, a solicitors letter that I organised did the trick. Might be worth looking into.

Either way, I wouldn't have much faith in revenue sorting this for you.

Graham · 05-05-2017 2:48pm

Refer a dispute to the WRC for unlawful deduction from wages:

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Complaints_Disputes/Refer_a_Dispute_Make_a_Complaint/

Non-payment of wages or any deficiency in the amount of wages properly payable by an employer to an employee on any occasion will be regarded as an unlawful deduction from wages unless the deficiency or non-payment is attributable to an error of computation.
ttps://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/What_You_Should_Know/Wages_and_Methods_of_Payments/

gerard 180 · 06-05-2017 2:38pm

Started the ball rolling with wrc a month ago. Rang them for update few days ago. Huge backlogs I am told. They have therefore yet to process the complaint. So looks like revenue and wrc will take months at best if they are to achieve anything. Tempted to go and talk to someone legal and get them to send letter but if employer ignoring revenue demands then they likely to ignore same. Frustrated revenue don t issue fines/ threat of audit etc etc with such non compliance

gerard 180 · 06-05-2017 3:46pm

Can anybody pm me legal contact who may issue legal letter to employer? Also curious re the cost of such

Thanks

gerard 180 · 10-05-2017 4:59pm

Thanks to all for posting on this. After a good deal of time spent thinking re this this afternoon, I have decided to cut my losses. The unpaid wages of one thousand will likely cost me a nice fortune to recoup through legal as employer has dug heels in, and there is no guarantee that some legal loophole would nt prevent payment of same anyways. Re non filing of p45, revenue can do little. This has been a harsh learning experience re employer bad practices.

Thanks again.

frag420 · 10-05-2017 5:21pm

gerard 180 wrote: »

Thanks to all for posting on this. After a good deal of time spent thinking re this this afternoon, I have decided to cut my losses. The unpaid wages of one thousand will likely cost me a nice fortune to recoup through legal as employer has dug heels in, and there is no guarantee that some legal loophole would nt prevent payment of same anyways. Re non filing of p45, revenue can do little. This has been a harsh learning experience re employer bad practices.

Thanks again.

What kind of company is it? Could you leave a negative google review or perhaps on Glassdoor s that other potential employees can see what a sh1tbag your old boss is?

jimmycrackcorm · 10-05-2017 6:51pm

gerard 180 wrote:

Thanks to all for posting on this. After a good deal of time spent thinking re this this afternoon, I have decided to cut my losses. The unpaid wages of one thousand will likely cost me a nice fortune to recoup through legal as employer has dug heels in, and there is no guarantee that some legal loophole would nt prevent payment of same anyways. Re non filing of p45, revenue can do little. This has been a harsh learning experience re employer bad practices.

Don't cut your losses. Just keep annoying the revenue and WRC to pursue it. It might take time but you should eventually get a result.

gerard 180 · 10-05-2017 6:58pm

Small company. About 5 employees. I might look into Glassdoor can t do any harm, albeit I expect Glassdoor mainly for bigger companies

dev100 · 11-05-2017 6:43am

gerard 180 wrote:

Thanks to all for posting on this. After a good deal of time spent thinking re this this afternoon, I have decided to cut my losses. The unpaid wages of one thousand will likely cost me a nice fortune to recoup through legal as employer has dug heels in, and there is no guarantee that some legal loophole would nt prevent payment of same anyways. Re non filing of p45, revenue can do little. This has been a harsh learning experience re employer bad practices.

Pursue this to the bitter end 1K is a lot of money to give away and as far as I'd be concerned after a certain length of time it becomes theft if hasn't been returned to me . It may not be called theft in the legal sense but as far as I'd be concerned it's stealing. I'd be attacking on 3 fronts I'd be making presence felt at your former work place and I'd be ringing and writing every week until the business owner gets the message that you won't be dropping it.

ebbsy · 11-05-2017 10:00pm

Tell them you are going to give the WRC a bell, and the Revenue as well.

erica74 · 12-05-2017 7:18am

gerard 180 wrote: »

Thanks to all for posting on this. After a good deal of time spent thinking re this this afternoon, I have decided to cut my losses. The unpaid wages of one thousand will likely cost me a nice fortune to recoup through legal as employer has dug heels in, and there is no guarantee that some legal loophole would nt prevent payment of same anyways. Re non filing of p45, revenue can do little. This has been a harsh learning experience re employer bad practices.

Thanks again.

Hi there, sorry you are going through this, it must be very frustrating.

If you are of the frame of mind that you want to forget about it, just allow the WRC and Revenue to continue pursuing things while you just put it out of your mind for the moment.
I know you have been told the WRC are experiencing backlogs, however, if you just allow them to continue pursuing the matter, you will eventually get to the top of the queue.

Crazyteacher · 12-05-2017 10:20am

dev100 wrote: »

Pursue this to the bitter end 1K is a lot of money to give away and as far as I'd be concerned after a certain length of time it becomes theft if hasn't been returned to me . It may not be called theft in the legal sense but as far as I'd be concerned it's stealing. I'd be attacking on 3 fronts I'd be making presence felt at your former work place and I'd be ringing and writing every week until the business owner gets the message that you won't be dropping it.

I agreed with this. A phone call , a registered letter, a visit, and an email every week. You can't step down on this. That's a lot of money to withhold on a person.

the_syco · 17-05-2017 6:05pm

gerard 180 wrote: »

I have decided to cut my losses.

Sooooo.... emergency tax for the rest of the tax year?

=-=

A solicitors letter will probably cost €50 or so.

ibarelycare · 17-05-2017 7:04pm

the_syco wrote: »

Sooooo.... emergency tax for the rest of the tax year?

=-=

A solicitors letter will probably cost €50 or so.

You don't need a p45 to come off emergency tax.

Issues leaving job

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