Lambs and minerals

Lambman · 13-05-2017 6:38am #1

Time off year again were we start thinking what can I improve on last year and get the lambs heavyier quicker has me thinking on the minerals as i hope till finish on just grass... well last year i done the lambs with the cobalt bolus just once and there was crystalx lick buckets in the field with the ewes pre weaning that they looked fond off but I never give them buckets once weaned... anyways wasnt overly impressed with the bolus and ended up drenching lambs aswell that were lagging behind... taking lambs in next week with ewes for clipping gona worm dose the lambs and was wondering wats people's opinions on the bolus or drenching and lick buckets... also there is orf buckets with the lambs this year First year i tried it any1 with experience off them?

ganmo · 13-05-2017 8:54am

What breed and what type of soil?

Lambman · 13-05-2017 9:21am

Half charrlois half texel outta a mix a ewes mostly hilltex... running on what would be mossy enough ground but reseeded 2 years ago and lined again this year and done with 18-6-12 no sheep on it since September and last year was first sheep on in in a long long time.

rangler1 · 13-05-2017 10:09am

Lambman wrote: »

Time off year again were we start thinking what can I improve on last year and get the lambs heavyier quicker has me thinking on the minerals as i hope till finish on just grass... well last year i done the lambs with the cobalt bolus just once and there was crystalx lick buckets in the field with the ewes pre weaning that they looked fond off but I never give them buckets once weaned... anyways wasnt overly impressed with the bolus and ended up drenching lambs aswell that were lagging behind... taking lambs in next week with ewes for clipping gona worm dose the lambs and was wondering wats people's opinions on the bolus or drenching and lick buckets... also there is orf buckets with the lambs this year First year i tried it any1 with experience off them?

Cobalt boluses only supply about half the required cobalt and most land will supply the rest, however if your land is really deficient you'll probably need supplementing even the boluses.....you can only find out that with herbage, blood and liver tests, most cobalt drenches only last about three weeks whereas boluses last 5 or 6 mths.
I don't believe that crystalyx is any better than hogget ration but it's very convenient, hogget ration is €260 ton and crystalyx is €800/ton so you're paying for the convenience.
All this is only my opinion.
Know nothng about ORF buckets

Lambman · 13-05-2017 11:14am

Bolus them now 6 weeks old and it lasts 6 months be bad if they weren't away long before that... buckets is convenient alright but wouldn't agree with you comparing them by the tonne against ration off course thats gonna work out more expensive... be no ration given here just kept moving onto fresh grass weekly once weaned at 12 weeks... think I'll still bolus them this year but drench them with cobalt every time there in for a dose aswell it's no extra labour really. Do u scabivax the lambs rangler?

rangler1 · 13-05-2017 11:54am

Lambman wrote: »

Bolus them now 6 weeks old and it lasts 6 months be bad if they weren't away long before that... buckets is convenient alright but wouldn't agree with you comparing them by the tonne against ration off course thats gonna work out more expensive... be no ration given here just kept moving onto fresh grass weekly once weaned at 12 weeks... think I'll still bolus them this year but drench them with cobalt every time there in for a dose aswell it's no extra labour really. Do u scabivax the lambs rangler?

.

Yea, used scabivax for the first time last year, should've been using it years ago.
When do you give crystalyx and how much
A lot of english farmers are changing to the advantage feeders, it's possible to restrict the sheep to 250gms/day of ration.
That would be as convenient as feeding blocks, we've one here, bit early to recommend it yet, but it did what it said on the tin last year,
Some farmers in England are feeding just round barley through it to lambs

Lambman · 13-05-2017 12:29pm

Just googled the advantage looks impressive and if the trails are anything till go by work very well... but how do you know if all the lambs are eating from it? Didn't bother the scabivax this year because wanted till give the buckets a try they were regularly sold out last year in our local suppliers... do u creep lambs from there born or just after weaning?

rangler1 · 13-05-2017 12:42pm

Lambman wrote: »

Just googled the advantage looks impressive and if the trails are anything till go by work very well... but how do you know if all the lambs are eating from it? Didn't bother the scabivax this year because wanted till give the buckets a try they were regularly sold out last year in our local suppliers... do u creep lambs from there born or just after weaning?

You can mix food colouring through a bag of ration and they'll have it on their noses,
I used the feeder with the ewe lambs last Dec/jan, they hadn't much grass and was giving them 500g/day through it and it was obvious if they weren't eating and only one out of 150 didn't thrive.
Only had to fill it every third day, you have to use nuts or grains, it doesn't work with coarse ration and even dusty nuts aren't the biz either

Lambman · 13-05-2017 12:51pm

Are you a early lambing flock I'm mid March and for the life off me cant see how creeping lambs pays... if your lambing early then I know you need till creep and get the lambs away early hopefully before lamb prices start till drop... till answer your earlier question on lick crystalx buckets they were with the ewes 6 weeks before lambing till 6 weeks after lambing... dono how sore the lambs are gonna be on these orf buckets yet and till be honest cana even mind what i paid for them.

rangler1 · 13-05-2017 12:57pm

Lambman wrote: »

Are you a early lambing flock I'm mid March and for the life off me cant see how creeping lambs pays... if your lambing early then I know you need till creep and get the lambs away early hopefully before lamb prices start till drop... till answer your earlier question on lick crystalx buckets they were with the ewes 6 weeks before lambing till 6 weeks after lambing... dono how sore the lambs are gonna be on these orf buckets yet and till be honest cana even mind what i paid for them.

I lamb from 1st march to 1st may
I only creep feed about 25% of the lambs from about september on and even then only those over 37kgs and then adlib to everything from 1st November at which stage there'd be only 10% of them left .

Lambman · 13-05-2017 1:08pm

Ah ok I thought u were creeping all the time... I hope till have everything away here by September anything not ready by that stage is going till the Mart! Trying till increase ewe stocking rate by this method it's all trail and error haha

ganmo · 13-05-2017 2:14pm

Lambman wrote: »

Half charrlois half texel outta a mix a ewes mostly hilltex... running on what would be mossy enough ground but reseeded 2 years ago and lined again this year and done with 18-6-12 no sheep on it since September and last year was first sheep on in in a long long time.

dam texels... you'll have to stay well clear of copper until ya know how much the ground is supplying.

Lambman · 13-05-2017 2:23pm

Yea ganmo that's another problem but the bolus doesn't contain any copper anyway... is it blood tests that reveal what lambs are lacking? Wat minerals do u use urself?

ganmo · 13-05-2017 2:27pm

Lambman wrote: »

Yea ganmo that's another problem but the bolus doesn't contain any copper anyway... is it blood tests that reveal what lambs are lacking? Wat minerals do u use urself?

i'd send a bag of grass off to a lab to get it tested.

mainly cobalt and copper mixed and drenched together

Lambman · 13-05-2017 2:33pm

Would u take them in specifically for a mineral dose or just when there in for a worm dose... what breed u running?

ganmo · 13-05-2017 2:39pm

Lambman wrote: »

Would u take them in specifically for a mineral dose or just when there in for a worm dose... what breed u running?

ya i would, gets a chance to sort out any lameness before it gets bad.
Cheviot ewes and a mix of chev lambs and suffx

MD1983 · 13-05-2017 3:47pm

rangler1 wrote: »

You can mix food colouring through a bag of ration and they'll have it on their noses,
I used the feeder with the ewe lambs last Dec/jan, they hadn't much grass and was giving them 500g/day through it and it was obvious if they weren't eating and only one out of 150 didn't thrive.
Only had to fill it every third day, you have to use nuts or grains, it doesn't work with coarse ration and even dusty nuts aren't the biz either

fed a few hundred hoggets on one of the wheeled advantage feeders all winter, after a while they get a worn patch on their face from pressing up against the feeder trying to get the grain out, so you can tell from that after a while which is feeding and which isnt, i had a few hoggets that never got in the swing of using the feeder, maybe 1%-2%

rangler1 · 13-05-2017 5:08pm

MD1983 wrote: »

fed a few hundred hoggets on one of the wheeled advantage feeders all winter, after a while they get a worn patch on their face from pressing up against the feeder trying to get the grain out, so you can tell from that after a while which is feeding and which isnt, i had a few hoggets that never got in the swing of using the feeder, maybe 1%-2%

Were you feeding barley, I was thinking of feeding just barley to a bunch to try early in the season

razor8 · 13-05-2017 6:59pm

rangler1 wrote: »

.

Yea, used scabivax for the first time last year, should've been using it years ago.
When do you give crystalyx and how much
A lot of english farmers are changing to the advantage feeders, it's possible to restrict the sheep to 250gms/day of ration.
That would be as convenient as feeding blocks, we've one here, bit early to recommend it yet, but it did what it said on the tin last year,
Some farmers in England are feeding just round barley through it to lambs

Can you feed just the lambs with advantage feeder even when there still on the ewes?

rangler1 · 13-05-2017 7:01pm

razor8 wrote: »

Can you feed just the lambs with advantage feeder even when there still on the ewes?

Yea theres an adjustable flap that keeps out the ewes, haven't used it yet myself

razor8 · 13-05-2017 7:05pm

rangler1 wrote: »

Yea theres an adjustable flap that keeps out the ewes, haven't used it yet myself

Would be handy to keep lambs moving around wearing time. Would soya meal work at 100g in one of those feeders?

rangler1 · 13-05-2017 7:13pm

razor8 wrote: »

Would be handy to keep lambs moving around wearing time. Would soya meal work at 100g in one of those feeders?

It has to be nuts or grains, english are mixing what they call protein nuts with the grains , is there such a thing as soya nuts....pencils or pellets are pobably better, the gap for letting them down can is very tight....sheep work hard to get them. I can imagine why they say 'feck that' and go off and graze.
But it does work, manufacturers claim you can set it at 100grs, grains might work but i don't know about pellets at that rate,
Most of the big models are dual purpose, they do sheep or cattle....very useful on a mixed farm

razor8 · 13-05-2017 8:31pm

rangler1 wrote: »

It has to be nuts or grains, english are mixing what they call protein nuts with the grains , is there such a thing as soya nuts....pencils or pellets are pobably better, the gap for letting them down can is very tight....sheep work hard to get them. I can imagine why they say 'feck that' and go off and graze.
But it does work, manufacturers claim you can set it at 100grs, grains might work but i don't know about pellets at that rate,
Most of the big models are dual purpose, they do sheep or cattle....very useful on a mixed farm

Might splash out on one this year!

MD1983 · 14-05-2017 3:48pm

rangler1 wrote: »

Were you feeding barley, I was thinking of feeding just barley to a bunch to try early in the season

yep - mixed with soya and minerals, it did clog up a bit but they still emptied the thing!

there are ewe flaps to keep ewes away but i had a horny lamb get his horn jammed in it and his nose was pressed against the tray, he nearly drowned himself in his spit by the time i found him, much longer and he would have died id say

glenkeo · 17-05-2017 10:07pm

Hi I was looking in to the advantage feeder for hogs over the winter, would horned hogs be able to eat from one, and where is the best place to buy, I am in North West

Username John · 21-05-2017 11:44am

Just spotted these on agri direct...

https://www.agridirect.ie/product/cobalt-master-plus-selenium-100-pack

Anyone ever use them?

The sales blurb would indicate 1000mg cobalt, that they last for 12 months... they're not cheap, at 115euro for 100 bolus...

Any thoughts?

Lambman · 21-05-2017 11:54am

Used them last year nearly sure I just give €100 for 100 tablets in local co-op... wasn't happy with them at all got first batch away without drenching cobalt but had till go back till drenching all the rest again... definitely doesn't last 12 months... and when u are taking in lambs for worming it's not hard till throw a cobalt dose in them.... and also you have till buy the gun for putting the bolus in the stomach think was around €30 so rvery lamb bolused is costing you €1.45.

ganmo · 21-05-2017 12:12pm

no bolus will last 12 months, the 12 months might be the expiry date
what size are they?
there cant be much zinc or magnesium in it

Username John · 21-05-2017 12:18pm

ganmo wrote: »

no bolus will last 12 months, the 12 months might be the expiry date
what size are they?
there cant be much zinc or magnesium in it

The blurb states it 'should' last 12 months gammo

Cobalt Master Plus Selenium sheep boluses contain 1000mg of Cobalt with 100mg of Selenium and added Zinc and Magnesium. Cobalt Master Plus Selenium feature a slow release system that will continuously supply treated sheep with cobalt for a 12 month period.

ganmo · 21-05-2017 12:53pm

Username John wrote: »

The blurb states it 'should' last 12 months gammo

Cobalt Master Plus Selenium sheep boluses contain 1000mg of Cobalt with 100mg of Selenium and added Zinc and Magnesium. Cobalt Master Plus Selenium feature a slow release system that will continuously supply treated sheep with cobalt for a 12 month period.

if it does last 12 months i wouldn't be giving it to lambs, maybe replacements

Username John · 21-05-2017 1:13pm

ganmo wrote: »

if it does last 12 months i wouldn't be giving it to lambs, maybe replacements

Oh, yes - it would be for replacements I'd be using em.
I should have said...

I would be a bit suspicious of the 12 months as well... I would nearly prefer to be going in after 6 months... ha - not sure why, maybe just to bring more work on myself

I must look at the agrimin ones as well, and see what level of bobalt they supply...

Ard_MC · 21-05-2017 1:45pm

Username John wrote: »

Just spotted these on agri direct...

https://www.agridirect.ie/product/cobalt-master-plus-selenium-100-pack

Anyone ever use them?

The sales blurb would indicate 1000mg cobalt, that they last for 12 months... they're not cheap, at 115euro for 100 bolus...

Any thoughts?

I give them to the ewes 2 weeks before the ram goes out. I cant fault them. Have no scientific evidence but ewes get no more cobalt for the year and spend 6 months on the hill give or take.

Lambs get drenched cobalt and minerals every worm dose.

ganmo · 21-05-2017 3:22pm

Ard_MC wrote: »

I give them to the ewes 2 weeks before the ram goes out. I cant fault them. Have no scientific evidence but ewes get no more cobalt for the year and spend 6 months on the hill give or take.

Lambs get drenched cobalt and minerals every worm dose.

I'd give it to them a week or 2 earlier to get the most out of it.

I'm still puzzled why they've magnesium in it, unless they meant manganese

Username John · 21-05-2017 3:52pm

ganmo wrote: »

I'd give it to them a week or 2 earlier to get the most out of it.

I'm still puzzled why they've magnesium in it, unless they meant manganese

No, seems to be magnesium - well, at least that's what listed in a few websites... including here...

http://www.mayohealthcare.ie/product-details.php?ID=6

On a side note - they cheaper here than on agri direct...
http://burnslivestocksupplements.com/product/cobalt-master-selenium-sheep-bolus/

ganmo · 21-05-2017 3:56pm

Username John wrote: »

No, seems to be magnesium - well, at least that's what listed in a few websites... including here...

http://www.mayohealthcare.ie/product-details.php?ID=6

On a side note - they cheaper here than on agri direct...
http://burnslivestocksupplements.com/product/cobalt-master-selenium-sheep-bolus/

those 2 have lower cobalt than the original, 1000 vs 750

Username John · 21-05-2017 4:17pm

ganmo wrote: »

those 2 have lower cobalt than the original, 1000 vs 750

Yeah, I'd trust the mayo site more than agri direct...
So I'd be more inclined to say it's 750mg

I had a look at the agrimin ones, and they list their bolus release 0.8mg / day...

If the 12 months release evenly (which is debatable too, but for the simplicity of the maths)
750 / 352 = 2.1mg / day...
Which is 2.5 times the amount of cobalt every day...

Bleating Lamb · 22-05-2017 9:48am

I give lambs 'Cobalt b12 with Selenium' drench a couple of times through the summer,find it good,do others here use it?

Ard_MC · 22-05-2017 9:59am

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

I give lambs 'Cobalt b12 with Selenium' drench a couple of times through the summer,find it good,do others here use it?

No, do you mix it yourself or is it made up in a product?

Lambman · 22-05-2017 10:04am

That's a jar made up and all he's talking about... alot cheaper making it urself... any reason why I can't worm dose give cobalt dose and inject heptavac into lambs in the 1 day?

Username John · 22-05-2017 10:17am

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

I give lambs 'Cobalt b12 with Selenium' drench a couple of times through the summer,find it good,do others here use it?

Ard_MC wrote: »

No, do you mix it yourself or is it made up in a product?

I would dose with cobalt, mixed from cobalt sulphate - as Ard_Mc says, its a lot cheaper than buying the B12 stuff... the last dose the hog here got, there was growvite mixed in as well...

I was told previously (and am open to correction on this, from someone more knowledgable)
- cobalt is necessary for physiological functions
- b12 is necessary for cobalt production
- b12 cannot be taken into the body from an oral dose
- b12 needs to be injected

Now, I know you see a lot of b12 + cobalt doses, and I have used them myself before.
I suppose I am saying I don't understand why they have a dose with b12 in it, when it cant be absorbed in the stomach

(I could be just plain wrong too, which would explain it all)

ganmo · 22-05-2017 11:28am

Username John wrote: »

I would dose with cobalt, mixed from cobalt sulphate - as Ard_Mc says, its a lot cheaper than buying the B12 stuff... the last dose the hog here got, there was growvite mixed in as well...

I was told previously (and am open to correction on this, from someone more knowledgable)
- cobalt is necessary for physiological functions
- b12 is necessary for cobalt production
- b12 cannot be taken into the body from an oral dose
- b12 needs to be injected

Now, I know you see a lot of b12 + cobalt doses, and I have used them myself before.
I suppose I am saying I don't understand why they have a dose with b12 in it, when it cant be absorbed in the stomach

(I could be just plain wrong too, which would explain it all)

you've that ass over tits john.
cobalt is needed to make b12.

Username John · 22-05-2017 12:24pm

ganmo wrote: »

you've that ass over tits john.
cobalt is needed to make b12.

ah - that would be that...

Am I wrong also on the b12 absorption?

ganmo · 22-05-2017 12:45pm

Username John wrote: »

ah - that would be that...

Am I wrong also on the b12 absorption?

its absorbed in the small intestine, in ruminants its made in the rumen so it would survive the trip

Ard_MC · 22-05-2017 1:58pm

Lambman wrote: »

That's a jar made up and all he's talking about... alot cheaper making it urself... any reason why I can't worm dose give cobalt dose and inject heptavac into lambs in the 1 day?

Give the worm and cobalt all the 1 day but always leave the heptvac for another day..only 1 reason is i think they are fed up of me and i am fed up with them at that stage!!

Username John · 22-05-2017 2:15pm

ganmo wrote: »

its absorbed in the small intestine, in ruminants its made in the rumen so it would survive the trip

I was all wrong so...

Thanks ganmo...

Lambman · 22-05-2017 4:06pm

Why do u leave heptavac for another day?

rangler1 · 22-05-2017 4:57pm

Ard_MC wrote: »

Give the worm and cobalt all the 1 day but always leave the heptvac for another day..only 1 reason is i think they are fed up of me and i am fed up with them at that stage!!

We mix the Cobalt in the first worm dose, don't know whether it's the cobalt or the wormer but it's the only dose in the year that I see a result with.

Ard_MC · 22-05-2017 4:59pm

rangler1 wrote: »

We mix the Cobalt in the first worm dose, don't know whether it's the cobalt or the wormer but it's the only dose in the year that I see a result with.

Roughly what ratio Rangler? I lamb alot later than you, and first dose next Saturday!

rangler1 · 22-05-2017 6:04pm

Ard_MC wrote: »

Roughly what ratio Rangler? I lamb alot later than you, and first dose next Saturday!

15 grams (I think that's about half an ounce ) to the litre of wormer and the lambs are getting 5ml dose.
We mix it very well and we still put it through a tea strainer to get the gritty bits out.....it'd break your heart some times in the dosing gun.
Probably because our cobalt is around a couple years...
Keeping it mixed is important

ganmo · 22-05-2017 6:13pm

rangler1 wrote: »

15 grams (I think that's about half an ounce ) to the litre of wormer and the lambs are getting 5ml dose.
We mix it very well and we still put it through a tea strainer to get the gritty bits out.....it'd break your heart some times in the dosing gun.
Probably because our cobalt is around a couple years...keeping it mixed is important

would you not dissolve the cobalt in water and then add it to the dose?

rangler1 · 22-05-2017 6:32pm

ganmo wrote: »

would you not dissolve the cobalt in water and then add it to the dose?

Would the water not divide from the dose......anyway the bits of grit that's in ours wouldn't dissolve no matter what you did, they get caught in the valves.
We have around 350 lambs to dose and bolus tomorrow and 200 ewes to Clik .....not looking forward to it.
We gave them cobalt in the last dose and they really look well

Lambs and minerals

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