Are you glad the Catholic Church in Ireland is finished ?

chillin117 · 18-05-2017 03:35PM #1

Though I have never been abused I remember the power and fear the church had when I was growing up. I am 55 (tomorrow).
I attended a CBS school near Harts corner in Dublin. I remember things being a Mortal sin, (having a **** was a 1 way ticket to Hell). I remember Corpus Christi processions with Yellow and White flags from the top windows of houses tied to the front railings !
I was no Holy Joe either, I used to scoot along under the church seats after the last mass on Sunday picking up what had been dropped during the previous 4 or 5 masses that day !I would rob from the collection box given a chance too.

Then last week I came across this BBC Doc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfBafG3llMY and thought ''We were all living in fear from these pervert types''. There was only a few in the bigger picture of things but they effectively brought down the church. The cover up's were rampant right to the top.
This not a rant just a look back how things were then. Maynooth Collage 1956, 386 in the 6 year system 70 odd ordained that year. Maynooth 2016, 12 in the entire system, years 1-6. 2 ordained.

It was only a matter of time, Social Media would have brought the already flimsy tissue of lies, going right back, To it's knees anyway. I welcome it's demise.
Just a thought, Comments welcome
Mark.

ScumLord · 18-05-2017 03:38PM

It's far from finished. They've released their stranglehold on Irish society but they're still a major influence, we still depend on the church for things like baptisms, weddings and funerals, so I think we're some time away from the majority admitting they're only in it for the venue.

18-05-2017 03:42PM

ScumLord wrote: »

It's far from finished. They've released their stranglehold on Irish society but they're still a major influence, we still depend on the church for things like baptisms, weddings and funerals, so I think we're some time away from the majority admitting they're only in it for the venue.

Correction; They've been forced to release the visible aspects of their stranglehold. Until 90% of schools are NOT under the patronage of the Catholic church, until 2.5 hours on average per week of a primary school child's time is not spent on religious studies, until our hospitals are completely removed from their ownership AND influence, the stranglehold remains.

chillin117 · 18-05-2017 03:53PM

ScumLord wrote: »

It's far from finished. They've released their stranglehold on Irish society but they're still a major influence, we still depend on the church for things like baptisms, weddings and funerals, so I think we're some time away from the majority admitting they're only in it for the venue.

Baptism rule will be gone too, soon. Fanigans Funeral folk already on the case...http://www.fanagans.ie/Arranging-a-Funeral/Religious-and-Non~Religious-Services

_Brian · 18-05-2017 03:57PM

i think there's a place for religion in society providing it isn't allowed to influence public policy and control people as has happened in the past.

I know it's not a popular opinion and I'm not a frequent church goer myself but I do know many young and old who have gotten great peace near the end of their lives from religion. It's a bit like the old saying "there's no atheists in foxholes".

One friend who spoke about it as he neared death said that it brought a lot of sense and organisation to his life, he disagreed with much the church represented.

Being at the bedside of someone who is dieing seeing the comfort they have from their faith, why would we want to take that away from them based on our opinions.

I don't think the church will ever be over, it will rightly be separated from state and there for those who want it and not shoved down everyone's throats which was wrong.

Oink · 18-05-2017 03:58PM

First things first, I've never been abused.

However the Catholic Church have deeply, deeply hurt my family and myself in at least two occasions. They will never ask for our forgiveness. Never ask, and you shall never receive.

My point is, no. No, they're not even half done with us yet.

Shurimgreat · 18-05-2017 04:00PM

They are nowhere near gone.

They still own or operate many of the major hospitals.
They still own and operate the vast majority of schools and have a big say in what is taught and who is hired.
You still need your child baptised before being even considered for one of these schools.

Their influence is still huge, even if its not as obvious as it once was.

Ubbquittious · 18-05-2017 04:06PM

The Catholic church never did anything wrong to me so I have no beef with them what so ever. Back in the 70's and 80's people gave them the power that they had. There was no Faith Militant lining the streets with clubs, people bought into it themselves of their own volition for the most part

ScumLord · 18-05-2017 04:10PM

_Brian wrote: »

It's a bit like the old saying "there's no atheists in foxholes".

That's just religious propaganda, there's plenty of people that don't go back to religion once something goes wrong in their lives. I've been in a number of life threatening positions and I haven't turned Catholic in that instant.

People on death's door can look for comfort because they're scared, some can just accept it's happening and rather than look forward to what comes next they look back on what they've achieved.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 18-05-2017 04:10PM

Well they're not finished, every backwater in the county has a Catholic Church offering Mass on a regular basis, and 80%+ of the country still consider themselves Catholics.

I can appreciate those who've had bad dealings with them but I can only go on my own experiences. I don't hate them, they've always been good to me.

chillin117 · 18-05-2017 04:11PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

They are nowhere near gone.

They still own or operate many of the major hospitals.
They still own and operate the vast majority of schools and have a big say in what is taught and who is hired.
You still need your child baptised before being even considered for one of these schools.

Their influence is still huge, even if its not as obvious as it once was.

But over time, As they die, lay people will have to take over, Those lay people being you and me. Once this current crop of priest's (and Nuns} ''Go home'' It's ''Game, Set and Match''
What was a church Daddy ?

uch · 18-05-2017 04:12PM

No, there are an awful lot of people that still get great comfort from the church,

andekwarhola · 18-05-2017 04:13PM

Time for a Catholic church megathread?

Not messing, I'm serious. Might free up some room here.

quietsailor · 18-05-2017 04:15PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Well they're not finished, every backwater in the county has a Catholic Church offering Mass on a regular basis, and 80%+ of the country still consider themselves Catholics.

I can appreciate those who've had bad dealings with them but I can only go on my own experiences. I don't hate them, they've always been good to me.

a +1 on this,

I went to a Catholic primary school, Christian brothers secondary school and never had any problems or heard stories of problems either.
I'm not a regular church goer - maybe halfway between the Christmas Catholics and a once-a-week mass goer but I enjoy going and it gives me a sense of peace. So no, the church in Ireland is no-where near finished

DEFTLEFTHAND · 18-05-2017 04:15PM

Having said that when Catholicism continues to grow in the Far East and South America it's undoubtedly in trouble in Europe.

With what's going in Europe at the moment I could see a massive shift towards another of the Abrahamic faiths in the next 50-75 years.

As Larry Dunne said, "If you thought we were bad, you'd wanna see what's coming next".

chillin117 · 18-05-2017 04:17PM

uch wrote: »

No, there are an awful lot of people that still get great comfort from the church,

If they do, Thats fine, The point I am trying to make is, Ruling through fear is gone, Never to return.

....... · 18-05-2017 04:17PM

This post has been deleted.

chillin117 · 18-05-2017 04:19PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Thank you. As if proof to demise was needed.

freshpopcorn · 18-05-2017 04:23PM

I'm 25 now and when I was in school their wasn't anybody really involved in the church once they gave up alter serving. I notice now tough theirs a good few young people involved in the church in my area anyway.
I never had a bad experience with the church to be honest. All we did with was basically read nice stories, sing songs, light a candle and colour pictures!

chillin117 · 18-05-2017 04:25PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'm 25 now and when I was in school their wasn't anybody really involved in the church once they gave up alter serving. I notice now tough theirs a good few young people involved in the church in my area anyway.
I never had a bad experience with the church to be honest. All we did with was basically read nice stories, sing songs, light a candle and colour pictures!

Phew !

Glenster · 18-05-2017 04:26PM

you say it's finished.

I say holy redeemer church in bray is full for the 10.30 and 12.30 mass on a Sunday.

Widdershins · 18-05-2017 04:28PM

I'm glad it doesn't wield the power it used to. No religion should have so much influence.

I'm also a bit bored of the bickering about it.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 18-05-2017 04:29PM

It's not what it was but it is far from finished.

paleoperson · 18-05-2017 04:29PM

Not really, the Catholic Church has brought some positive things to my life growing up, though I'm an atheist.

I guess it's better that people stop believing in things that aren't true, but I'm not particularly glad about it. People waste time lots of ways.

eviltwin · 18-05-2017 04:37PM

Its influence on society is waning and that can only be a good thing. There is nothing wrong with being religious, I have no time for it myself but I don't see it as all bad. Just keep it private and personal and out of public life.

Depp · 18-05-2017 05:07PM

Oh great another church bashing thread haven't seen that before! The hypocrisy is great though imagine the furore if someone made a thread called ''are you glad islam in ireland is finished?''

also finished? agree it losing its influence which I feel is a good thing as a secular state is important but its far from finished. by any metric its still the most prevalent faith in the country by a long way, dont understand how this offends people so much.

Mrs OBumble · 18-05-2017 05:16PM

Wait til you see what the non-denominational / evangelical mega-churches which will step into the gap are like.

diomed · 18-05-2017 05:22PM

Thread is catnip for cool cats.
The Catholic church is doing fine.

jobbridge4life · 18-05-2017 05:25PM

diomed wrote: »

Thread is catnip for cool cats.
The Catholic church is doing fine.

...

It is not dead, but it is not accurate to say that it is 'doing fine'. Attendances are at rock bottom, the clergy are extremely aged and vocations are extremely far and few between. Religious orders of monks and nuns are quite literally on deaths door due to the aging of their members.

That is not fine.

05eaftqbrs9jlh · 18-05-2017 05:27PM

quietsailor wrote: »

a +1 on this,

I went to a Catholic primary school, Christian brothers secondary school and never had any problems or heard stories of problems either.
I'm not a regular church goer - maybe halfway between the Christmas Catholics and a once-a-week mass goer but I enjoy going and it gives me a sense of peace. So no, the church in Ireland is no-where near finished

...for you.

chillin117 wrote: »

If they do, Thats fine, The point I am trying to make is, Ruling through fear is gone, Never to return.

Although I'd love to get on board with you and agree, look at what happened with the Dáil prayer last week (in spite of the fact that the blasphemy law fell on its face before it could even grow legs). It's symptomatic of the exact same culture I see while working as a teacher. There are a lot of middle- and upper-class people who have been raised to understand the power and influence the church has in major areas of society. Going against religion can mean your job, in my profession and many others. That is perverse.

Depp · 18-05-2017 05:29PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

...

It is not dead, but it is not accurate to say that it is 'doing fine'. Attendances are at rock bottom, the clergy are extremely aged and vocations are extremely far and few between. Religious orders of monks and nuns are quite literally on deaths door due to the aging of their members.

That is not fine.

the strength of a church is not about priests or nuns its about believers, and a quick look shows there are plenty. Its definitely not as strong as it has been in the past no doubt but thats just modern society. To say the church is dying or dead is a bit silly.

Achasanai · 18-05-2017 05:30PM

Glenster wrote: »

you say it's finished.

I say holy redeemer church in bray is full for the 10.30 and 12.30 mass on a Sunday.

Well, if the Holy Redeemer in Bray is full, then I guess the Catholic church is doing fine.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Wait til you see what the non-denominational / evangelical mega-churches which will step into the gap are like.

They're not going to 'fill the gap', though, are they? Most people don't have a problem with private belief, it's the control over the social and political aspects in Ireland that are the issue.

jobbridge4life · 18-05-2017 05:31PM

Depp wrote: »

the strength of a church is not about priests or nuns its about believers, and a quick look shows there are plenty. Its definitely not as strong as it has been in the past no doubt but thats just modern society. To say the church is dying or dead is a bit silly.

I agree with you partially. It is silly to say it is 'dead' but I am not sure about the dying part. It faces an existential crises. Its clergy are very aged, the overwhelming bulk of its regular believers are very aged. This is an inescapable reality for the Church.

chillin117 · 18-05-2017 05:32PM

Depp wrote: »

Oh great another church bashing thread haven't seen that before!

Nobody bashing the church, Just an observation, Now come down from that High Horse, It's Dangerous ! ffs ! Did I hit a (deeply engraved) nerve ?
It will take a while for this to ''Wash Out''

diomed · 18-05-2017 05:34PM

Yesterday my hair was cut by a Polish barber.
And some recent masses I attended were celebrated by Polish priests.
Much like the HSE and nursing homes many tasks are filled by new citizens born abroad.

pjohnson · 18-05-2017 05:37PM

Why does increase in sunshine lead to an increase in anti church threads.

chillin117 · 18-05-2017 05:40PM

pjohnson wrote: »

Why does increase in sunshine lead to an increase in anti church threads.

Where is this ''Anti Church'' ? Just an observation on Irish society. Debate or be a Keyboard Warrior.

AllForIt · 18-05-2017 05:47PM

pjohnson wrote: »

Why does increase in sunshine lead to an increase in anti church threads.

Because the sunshine makes people feel better and then they realize they don't need the church or hope or any of that malarkey.

pjohnson · 18-05-2017 05:49PM

chillin117 wrote: »

Where is this ''Anti Church'' ? Just an observation on Irish society. Debate or be a Keyboard Warrior.

Where is any form of debate in the OP nonsense? Ah you are the OP and nonsense seems to be unavoidable reading thread in full.

Jimoslimos · 18-05-2017 05:56PM

_Brian wrote: »

I know it's not a popular opinion and I'm not a frequent church goer myself but I do know many young and old who have gotten great peace near the end of their lives from religion. It's a bit like the old saying "there's no atheists in foxholes".

Nope.

]

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 18-05-2017 06:01PM

chillin117 wrote: »

Nobody bashing the church, Just an observation, Now come down from that High Horse, It's Dangerous ! ffs ! Did I hit a (deeply engraved) nerve ?
It will take a while for this to ''Wash Out''

I'd be one of the last to defend the organisation that is the Catholic Church but at least be honest. This is, of course, another church/religion bashing thread.

The_Valeyard · 18-05-2017 06:08PM

If the word Catholic was replaced with Muslim, Jew, traveller, transgender, red cards be handed out.

keeponhurling · 18-05-2017 06:14PM

Still the largest religion in the Ireland, by a considerable distance.
So I do wonder what's the point of the thread.

Akrasia · 18-05-2017 06:14PM

Depp wrote: »

the strength of a church is not about priests or nuns its about believers, and a quick look shows there are plenty. Its definitely not as strong as it has been in the past no doubt but thats just modern society. To say the church is dying or dead is a bit silly.

But people don't believe anymore either

How many people believe that sex before marriage is a mortal sin?

How many people refuse any kind of contraception (including the rhythm method and withdrawal)

How many people still go to confession?

The catholic church enforced all of these teachings with an iron fist in the good old days. People were publicly humiliated and shunned of they were called out from the pulpet.

The RC church is in a massive decline. Most catholics don't believe in Catholicism anymore, people aren't afraid of the priest anymore.

neverever1 · 18-05-2017 06:21PM

There's a difference between the catholic church and being a catholic. Captain obvious to the rescue!

pjohnson · 18-05-2017 06:22PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

If the word Catholic was replaced with Muslim, Jew, traveller, transgender, red cards be handed out.

Maybe not. More likely thread locked after 8 posts.

Nabber · 18-05-2017 06:22PM

The problem which has afflicted society throughout the ages we always need something to believe in, religious or not.

Today belief has moved to science. Once again it's followers support it passionately.

Eventually science will be the cause of conflict and hardship.

Humanity won't rid itself of its woes

Cee-Jay-Cee · 18-05-2017 06:22PM

The RC church is far from being finished (in Ireland at least) but thankfully they do not have the same hold on the people they used to have and they can no longer dictate what we can and cannot do as people simply no longer stand for that crap.

I was brought up a catholic, I served as an alter boy for a few years too. I made my first communion and confirmation and I was married in a RC church (albeit in Spain) but I have zero respect or time for the RC church. Their teachings are borderline ridiculous, a catholic Mass is just the most stupid nonsensical thing ever. Why grown people are expected to go to a church every week and sit down, kneel and stand up for no apparent reason and then ramble off a few nonsense rhymes all the while listening to made up stories being told by a man who has zero life experience and yet preaches about children and marriage and vows and other sh?te he has no personal knowledge of is beyond comprehension.

Huntergonzo · 18-05-2017 06:45PM

As many have said here already the church is far from finished, infact they still enjoy a very privileged position in this country and will fight tooth and nail to remain in that position, it's entrenched in them.

Granted people don't generally listen too much to the church there days, an example being that 78% of people apparently consider themselves Catholic yet 62% of people still voted for gay marriage, which the church is staunchly against (and the Vatican called "a defeat for humanity"), quite an obvious contradiction, which casts the stats into serious doubt.

The most tragic thing though is the stone age bullshít children are subjected to on a daily basis in our publicly funded primary schools. They're taught faith based creationism (in other words foundationless fairy stories) over scientific fact.....tragic.

Glenster · 18-05-2017 06:55PM

Achasanai wrote: »

Well, if the Holy Redeemer in Bray is full, then I guess the Catholic church is doing fine

doing fine in bray anyway.

gifted · 18-05-2017 07:02PM

My eldest girl made her communion last saturday, it was a beautiful day, all started with a wonderful mass celebrated by 2 of the most approachable priests I have ever met...one in his early 50s and the other in his 30s. The relaxed and very humourous atmosphere at the mass was brilliant. The kids were so relaxed and happy because the priests had been up to their school numerous times rehearsing the big day.

I don't think the church is finished. It's seriously in trouble and rightly so because of what happened in the past but if they are getting priests of the calibre of what we have here then I feel there is hope.