1 day post nutering very aggressive dog

Minnie_mol · 20-01-2018 09:23PM #1

Hi all, id greatly appreciate any help. perhaps im being premature asking for advice on this but I’m extremely concerned and want to act quickly to try and prevent this behaviour from becoming the norm. I have 2 male dogs (14 months) that are a mix breed of bichon/Yorkshire terrier & jack Russel. They are litter mates but could not look more different- one looks like the bichon/ yorkie mix the other a long haired jack Russel.

We got the bichon/ yorkie a few days before we went back for his brother for company for him. They are the best of friends go everywhere together and pine if separated. There have been 1 or 2 incidents where the bichon has growled viciously at the jack Russel after he’s come home from being groomed, as the jack Russel has hounded him sniffing him and wont leave him alone, however the following day all is normal again. He also used to growl at him at feeding time occasionally and the jack russel would cower away from the food, however it seems that the jack Russel doesn’t do this anymore and the growling had stopped. The bichon does still growl over treats however and sometimes it’s heeded by the jack Russel.

This was all fine until yesterday I got both dogs neutered (around 2pm). Around 6am today we woke to screeching from the jack Russel. It appeared as though the bichon had growled and gone for him and the jack russel was cowering from him screeching when my partner ran to check on them. We seperated them so he couldn’t access him again (in their dog pen). A few hours later they seemed in better spirits and I took away the partition. I was only gone minutes when I heard growling again. I returned to the room and told the bichon to stop- he did. When I left again it started again and just as I was walking back into the room he went for him again viciously and the jack russel began screeching until I seperated them and took the bichon away.

This evening another incident occurred out the back both dogs were out the back and went into their kennel. When suddenly the growling and barking started again more viciously than before and the jack russel screeched louder than ever. When we ran out it stopped but neither dog would come out initially, the bichon did a moment later and I brought him back inside. The jack Russel would not come out. Eventually he did and hid behind a tree, until I coaxed him in with treats. It was then we noticed his ear was bleeding after the encounter.

I’m very worried now that I made the wrong decision to neuter them and this could end up being a permanent situation. On the other hand im wondering (hopefully), could it be perhaps be pain and discomfort that’s causing him to react like this to his brother as it's only been over 24 hrs? I'm so concerned now as they were such good companions to each other and now I can't leave them alone. I should also point out I wasn’t given pain med for them by the vet. Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks.

Doctors room ghost · 20-01-2018 09:37PM

They are probably just in a bit of a mood after a tough day getting neutered and probably a bit hungover from the anaesthetics and sore.the smell from the vets and iodine,meds etc is still on them too which might confuse them a bit.
I’d say if you keep separating them when they have a row it will continue as well.
Id say after a day or so they will settle down and get back to normal and even if they do fight it’s unlikely they will do any real damage to each other as one will back down before it gets too serious especially when they already know each other.be firm with them if they fight maybe a tap of a rolled up newspaper but don’t fuss over them too much and don’t panic.if my dogs fight they both get given out to but are left together as I find separating them and reintroducing them creates more issues normally.stay calm and be firm

borderlinemeath · 20-01-2018 09:51PM

Minnie_mol wrote: »

Hi all, id greatly appreciate any help. perhaps im being premature asking for advice on this but I’m extremely concerned and want to act quickly to try and prevent this behaviour from becoming the norm. I have 2 male dogs (14 months) that are a mix breed of bichon/Yorkshire terrier & jack Russel. They are litter mates but could not look more different- one looks like the bichon/ yorkie mix the other a long haired jack Russel.

We got the bichon/ yorkie a few days before we went back for his brother for company for him. They are the best of friends go everywhere together and pine if separated. There have been 1 or 2 incidents where the bichon has growled viciously at the jack Russel after he’s come home from being groomed, as the jack Russel has hounded him sniffing him and wont leave him alone, however the following day all is normal again. He also used to growl at him at feeding time occasionally and the jack russel would cower away from the food, however it seems that the jack Russel doesn’t do this anymore and the growling had stopped. The bichon does still growl over treats however and sometimes it’s heeded by the jack Russel.

This was all fine until yesterday I got both dogs neutered (around 2pm). Around 6am today we woke to screeching from the jack Russel. It appeared as though the bichon had growled and gone for him and the jack russel was cowering from him screeching when my partner ran to check on them. We seperated them so he couldn’t access him again (in their dog pen). A few hours later they seemed in better spirits and I took away the partition. I was only gone minutes when I heard growling again. I returned to the room and told the bichon to stop- he did. When I left again it started again and just as I was walking back into the room he went for him again viciously and the jack russel began screeching until I seperated them and took the bichon away.

This evening another incident occurred out the back both dogs were out the back and went into their kennel. When suddenly the growling and barking started again more viciously than before and the jack russel screeched louder than ever. When we ran out it stopped but neither dog would come out initially, the bichon did a moment later and I brought him back inside. The jack Russel would not come out. Eventually he did and hid behind a tree, until I coaxed him in with treats. It was then we noticed his ear was bleeding after the encounter.

I’m very worried now that I made the wrong decision to neuter them and this could end up being a permanent situation. On the other hand im wondering (hopefully), could it be perhaps be pain and discomfort that’s causing him to react like this to his brother as it's only been over 24 hrs? I'm so concerned now as they were such good companions to each other and now I can't leave them alone. I should also point out I wasn’t given pain med for them by the vet. Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks.

Yes, pain can certainly cause dogs to act out. Surprised you weren't given at least a couple of days of pain meds. I'd keep them separate until you can get to the vet and get something to take the edge off the pain. It's too dangerous to leave them together.

But aside from that, there's a whole plethora of other behaviours that can be caused by dogs being littermates. It's not really to do with them just being neutered, there's a co-dependency between them that makes them seem like best companions, but it sounds like the bichon type is becoming the bully and has the JRT type almost living in fear - which in a co-dependent situation that littermates have, must make the JRTs life hellish.

If you don't get help with them, it will end badly. Getting a good behaviourist to come for a home visit to help you deal with their issues. It's a bit late to say it now, but the vast majority of good breeders won't sell littermates because they become so bonded to each other, there is little room for their human family or other dogs and training them can be very difficult. On paper, as you said, it seemed like a good idea as they can be companions, but after a few months as they mature, things can go pear shaped. There's better people on here to advise you, but google littermate syndrome and you'll probably read some scenarios that sound familiar.

Knine · 20-01-2018 10:14PM

Doctors room ghost wrote: »

I’d say if you keep separating them when they have a row it will continue as well.
Id say after a day or so they will settle down and get back to normal and even if they do fight it’s unlikely they will do any real damage to each other as one will back down before it gets too serious especially when they already know each other

Do not listen to this. Worst advice ever. If I had left my dogs to fight it out I would have one dead dog. This especially applies to any terrier breeds & their crosses.

Typical Littermate Syndrome. Neutering won't help and may in fact make it worse. No reputable Breeder will sell littermates to the same home for exactly the reasons mentioned in BLM's excellent post above. Very often when this situation occurs, the sensible option is to rehome one of the pair. Often this is in the best interests of the dogs. You need to call in the professionals to help before this escalates if you decide to keep both dogs.

Minnie_mol · 20-01-2018 10:19PM

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Yes, pain can certainly cause dogs to act out. Surprised you weren't given at least a couple of days of pain meds. I'd keep them separate until you can get to the vet and get something to take the edge off the pain. It's too dangerous to leave them together.

But aside from that, there's a whole plethora of other behaviours that can be caused by dogs being littermates. It's not really to do with them just being neutered, there's a co-dependency between them that makes them seem like best companions, but it sounds like the bichon type is becoming the bully and has the JRT type almost living in fear - which in a co-dependent situation that littermates have, must make the JRTs life hellish.

If you don't get help with them, it will end badly. Getting a good behaviourist to come for a home visit to help you deal with their issues. It's a bit late to say it now, but the vast majority of good breeders won't sell littermates because they become so bonded to each other, there is little room for their human family or other dogs and training them can be very difficult. On paper, as you said, it seemed like a good idea as they can be companions, but after a few months as they mature, things can go pear shaped. There's better people on here to advise you, but google littermate syndrome and you'll probably read some scenarios that sound familiar.

Thanks so much for both your quick responses it's greatly appreciated! At the moment the jrt isn't fighting back he's simply cowering and screeching in fear, which is so upsetting to see. I did ask the vet about medication and he said because they were male it wasn't needed. I will try to get in touch with a vet on call in the morning for some.

I've read a bit on littermate syndrome as you suggested and a number of the signs were familiar, which is causing me worry. We didn't buy them from a breeder it was a lovely family whose dog happened to have pups, so I suppose they weren't to know it wasn't recommended and in hindsight I should have researched it more myself.

I feel they are very attached to us and don't cope well when left alone, they don't appear to play with one another when we are not around and seem to wait at the door a lot for us. Would this be another sign of this syndrome? I've been thinking a lot of late about searching for a behaviourist because of this dependency on us.

Doctors room ghost · 20-01-2018 10:27PM

Knine wrote: »

Do not listen to this. Worst advice ever. If I had left my dogs to fight it out I would have one dead dog. This especially applies to any terrier breeds & their crosses.

Typical Littermate Syndrome. Neutering won't help and may in fact make it worse. No reputable Breeder will sell littermates to the same home for exactly the reasons mentioned in BLM's excellent post above. Very often when this situation occurs, the sensible option is to rehome one of the pair. Often this is in the best interests of the dogs. You need to call in the professionals to help before this escalates if you decide to keep both dogs.

Pure nonsense.my dogs don’t fight often and if they do they are told in no uncertain terms that fighting is unacceptable behavior and will not be tolerated. You need to be firm,calm and fair with dogs.plenty of regular exercise and a good diet with social interaction and you should have a balanced well mannered dog.
I guarantee that if you separate them dogs the problems will escalate.if you are a dramatic owner you will have bad behavior in dogs.as for professional help it’s your money.if you have 2 dogs in your house and one was going to kill the other there is something major wrong.
And as for the terrier theory one of mine is a staff

Knine · 20-01-2018 10:34PM

Doctors room ghost wrote: »

Pure nonsense.my dogs don’t fight often and if they do they are told in no uncertain terms that fighting is unacceptable behavior and will not be tolerated. You need to be firm,calm and fair with dogs.plenty of regular exercise and a good diet with social interaction and you should have a balanced well mannered dog.
I guarantee that if you separate them dogs the problems will escalate.if you are a dramatic owner you will have bad behavior in dogs.as for professional help it’s your money.if you have 2 dogs in your house and one was going to kill the other there is something major wrong.
And as for the terrier theory one of mine is a staff

Absolute Rubbish. Yes there was something major wrong. The two dogs in my house simply did not like each other. Simple as that. Professional Advice is money well spent if the OP gets to keep their dogs, especially before the situation escalates. You seriously have not got a clue if you think it is acceptable to allow to dogs to fight it out. Serious injury or death is a real possibility with fighting dogs.

Lol I must remember to tell my dog that fighting is unacceptable the next time she has another by the throat and see how see responds.

Knine · 20-01-2018 10:42PM

The fact that one dog is not fighting back means there is more hope of fixing the issue then if the two were going hell for leather at each other. Until you get some help make sure these dogs are never left unsupervised together. Stairgates (baby) can be very useful to keep them separated. Have you done any training separately or are the dogs always together?

borderlinemeath · 20-01-2018 10:43PM

Doctors room ghost wrote: »

Pure nonsense.my dogs don’t fight often and if they do they are told in no uncertain terms that fighting is unacceptable behavior and will not be tolerated. You need to be firm,calm and fair with dogs.plenty of regular exercise and a good diet with social interaction and you should have a balanced well mannered dog.
I guarantee that if you separate them dogs the problems will escalate.if you are a dramatic owner you will have bad behavior in dogs.as for professional help it’s your money.if you have 2 dogs in your house and one was going to kill the other there is something major wrong.
And as for the terrier theory one of mine is a staff

You're advice wasn't all that good to be honest.

There's having the odd scrap, which can blow over. And there's fighting caused by fear aggression, or resource guarding, which can fester and then escalate and lead to all out war. I know dogs that absolutely have to be kept separate from other dogs in their household and sometimes it is better to rehome one of them given the situation.

borderlinemeath · 20-01-2018 10:46PM

Minnie_mol wrote: »

Thanks so much for both your quick responses it's greatly appreciated! At the moment the jrt isn't fighting back he's simply cowering and screeching in fear, which is so upsetting to see. I did ask the vet about medication and he said because they were male it wasn't needed. I will try to get in touch with a vet on call in the morning for some.

I've read a bit on littermate syndrome as you suggested and a number of the signs were familiar, which is causing me worry. We didn't buy them from a breeder it was a lovely family whose dog happened to have pups, so I suppose they weren't to know it wasn't recommended and in hindsight I should have researched it more myself. I feel they are very attached to us and don't cope well when left alone, they don't appear to play with one another when we are not around and seem to wait at the door a lot for us. Would this be another sign of this syndrome? I've been thinking a lot of late about searching for a behaviourist because of this dependency on us.

All situations are different. If you can, try and get a camera and record them when you aren't there to see what happens when they're alone. Although they really shouldn't be left together given the current aggression between them.

DBB · 20-01-2018 10:51PM

Knine wrote: »

The fact that one dog is not fighting back means there is more hope of fixing the issue then if the two were going hell for leather at each other. Until you get some help make sure these dogs are never left unsupervised together. Stairgates (baby) can be very useful to keep them separated. Have you done any training separately or are the dogs always together?

I'd agree with this... Keep the dogs separate for now, but still in visual contact, whether via baby gates, crates and/or playpens. Don't completely separate them as that may cause problems. Under no circumstances should they be allowed to fight it out.
Do get a good professional out just to see what exactly is going on... Things may have been building between them for a while, but this is the straw that broke the camel's back. There could be politics going on that you need to recognise before signs of narkiness become more overt.
There's no doubt that some dogs are crabby for a few days post general anaesthetic, and it could be that if you keep them somewhat separated from each other for a few days, things may settle down.
If you let us know where you are, hopefully we can recommend someone good

Doctors room ghost · 20-01-2018 11:09PM

Knine wrote: »

Absolute Rubbish. Yes there was something major wrong. The two dogs in my house simply did not like each other. Simple as that. Professional Advice is money well spent if the OP gets to keep their dogs, especially before the situation escalates. You seriously have not got a clue if you think it is acceptable to allow to dogs to fight it out. Serious injury or death is a real possibility with fighting dogs.

Lol I must remember to tell my dog that fighting is unacceptable the next time she has another by the throat and see how see responds.

If you’re dog is going around catching other dogs by the throat it’s you the owner that’s at fault.if you put manners on your dog you wouldn’t have had any issues. I have 2 dogs one a staff who would run riot if given the chance but they don’t because they were well reared and show,and are given respect.and shove your lol where the mice won’t get at it.im out of here.the smell of drama queens is overpowering

Minnie_mol · 20-01-2018 11:09PM

Thanks again for all your replies! It would absolutely break my heart to have to rehome any of them so I want to try to sort it asap. At the moment I can separate them by dividing their pen, like was done early this morning, and we've also done this on and off throughout the day.

For the last few hours they are both in the sitting room with us keeping to themselves without issue. The issues arise when they are left unattended. I was considering putting them in different rooms tonight but reading your recommendations would it be better to put them back into the partitioned pen where they can see each other but not touch each other?

I'm living in limerick, if ye knew of anyone in this area ye could recommend I'd be delighted!

DBB · 20-01-2018 11:12PM

Doctors room ghost wrote: »

If you’re dog is going around catching other dogs by the throat it’s you the owner that’s at fault.if you put manners on your dog you wouldn’t have had any issues. I have 2 dogs one a staff who would run riot if given the chance but they don’t because they were well reared and show,and are given respect.and shove your lol where the mice won’t get at it.im out of here.the smell of drama queens is overpowering

Doctors room ghost,
There's no need for such an outburst. If you've a problem with a post, report it please.

All, please remember to post with respect for other posters. If you don't agree with each other, you can disagree nicely!

Do not reply to this post on thread, and quit this argument now.

Thanks,
DBB

Knine · 20-01-2018 11:15PM

I would put them in the partitioned pen as they would probably be happier. Just remove collars when using puppy pens in case they get caught up.

Some other posters might be able to steer you in.the direction of a Qualified Behaviourist in Limerick better then me.

Mod edit to remove inappropriate flaming

DBB · 20-01-2018 11:23PM

Minnie_mol wrote: »

For the last few hours they are both in the sitting room with us keeping to themselves without issue. The issues arise when they are left unattended. I was considering putting them in different rooms tonight but reading your recommendations would it be better to put them back into the partitioned pen where they can see each other but not touch each other?

I'm living in limerick, if ye knew of anyone in this area ye could recommend I'd be delighted!

Try to keep things as normal as you can, whilst keeping the pooches safe. So if they usually sleep inside, can you dig out a baby gate, or some other screen-type thing so you can keep them in separate rooms?
If you really can't, then use the pen, but I'd personally prefer post-op dogs to be inside under semi-supervision.
There's a good, certified trainer in Limerick called Sylwia Janke (http://www.sylwiadogtraining.com), and there's also Josanne Dodd in East Limerick (Oola), also certified and good https://www.facebook.com/JDCanineConfidence/

Just be a little careful because Limerick is a bit of a den of iniquity when it comes to dodgy dog trainers, but these two ladies have been independently assessed and are committed to evidence-led, dog-friendly training methods

Minnie_mol · 20-01-2018 11:40PM

Generally they sleep in their pen together indoors. I don't have a baby gate or anything similar unfortunately, maybe I should move the pen with the partition closer to my own room tonight to supervise them closer. To answer an earlier question I've only just remembered, I didn't do much separate training with them. again in hindsight I did a little and should have done more.

Pardon my ignorance on the matter but is there a major difference between asking for a dog trainer and a behaviourist?

Also I've only spotted my spelling error in the thread title apologies!!

DBB · 20-01-2018 11:47PM

Is putting one in the pen, and leaving one out of it altogether, a runner? I'd be inclined to leave the JRTish lad in the pen, the bichon-ish lad out.
Yes, there's a difference between a trainer and a behaviourist, the latter strictly speaking requiring some pretty meaty qualifications. However, in reality there are some really good trainers that have as much knowledge as an applied behaviourist, but just haven't yet accessed the (rather pricey) courses to get the letters after their names. The two ladies I linked to would be well able to help you out... Very knowledgeable and sympathetic, but realistic too.

Minnie_mol · 21-01-2018 11:02AM

Thanks very much I'll contact those ladies tomorrow and see how I get on. We seperated both of them last night and when we reintroduced them this morning, the bichon began licking the jrt ear and eye (like he would have done normally) I'm hoping this is a positive sign. Although he did growl slightly after when he attempted to do it a second time and the jrt pulled away. Only time will tell I suppose.

boomerang · 21-01-2018 11:16AM

I'm so sorry to hear that the vet didn't give you pain meds to go home for your dogs. I'm biting my tongue with anger wanting to ask you who it was. (Please don't say). To say that a dog whose undergone a castration doesn't need pain relief is completely backward. It's major surgery! Any vet I know (and I'm a vet nurse) will ensure the dog gets at least four if not five days of anti-inflammatories. Go back to your vet and tell them the dogs are narky and need pain relief. I'm so disgusted!

Minnie_mol · 21-01-2018 03:42PM

Thanks boomerang I've since gotten through to the vet and sorted medication for them which is a relief, so hopefully that'll help them. They seem a bit happier today so far thank God!

jimf · 21-01-2018 07:36PM

hopefully all will settle down

but as others have said above 2 pups from the same litter is never a good idea

you can have issues as you are possibly having or going to have

you can also have the complete opposite where their undying loyalty can be to each other and never really settle in to a family environment

1 day post nutering very aggressive dog

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