Is locking fire exit door illegal for pubs ?

spongebob89 · 19-02-2018 09:17AM #1

Is locking fire exit doors illegal for pubs ?

Basically I went for a drink the weekend when I noticed the band member was tapping the fire exit emergancy door for me to let him in and when I went over to try let him in the fire exit was locked. The bar man had to come out with a set of keys and on top of that spent about 5 minutes finding the right key and wrestling with the door to get it open.

This really shocked and angered me, imagine there was a fire and people need to use that fire exit and its locked.

Have we not learned anything from the stardust disaster.

Anyway, is this illegal and if it is who can I go compain to ? I have a photo of the bar man trying to open the fire exit with his keys

sydthebeat · 19-02-2018 09:20AM

It is illegal yes.

Are you 100% sure it was a fire door?

Dr_Bill · 19-02-2018 09:22AM

If it is a fire door it must not be locked. In terms of lodging a complaint it would be your local fire officer (I believe).

Captain_Crash · 19-02-2018 09:26AM

Regulation 12(f) of the The Workplace Chapter of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (General Application) Regulations 2007 state the following;

(f) emergency doors and gates are not so locked or fastened that they cannot be easily and
immediately opened by any person who may need to use them in an emergency

Del2005 · 19-02-2018 12:51PM

spongebob89 wrote: »

Is locking fire exit doors illegal for pubs ?

Basically I went for a drink the weekend when I noticed the band member was tapping the fire exit emergancy door for me to let him in and when I went over to try let him in the fire exit was locked. The bar man had to come out with a set of keys and on top of that spent about 5 minutes finding the right key and wrestling with the door to get it open.

This really shocked and angered me, imagine there was a fire and people need to use that fire exit and its locked.

Have we not learned anything from the stardust disaster.

Anyway, is this illegal and if it is who can I go compain to ? I have a photo of the bar man trying to open the fire exit with his keys

Was there a emergency exit sign above the door? If yes contact the local fire station if not its just a door.

ED E · 19-02-2018 12:54PM

The local fire officer will take this VERY seriously as will the HSA.

spongebob89 · 19-02-2018 02:19PM

Great.

Yes OP in my photo it clearly states emergency exit only and it was locked. I am going to lodge a complaint and hope they get a serious fine or something.

Victor · 19-02-2018 02:26PM

Note that some emergency doors will only open when the fire alarm is triggered.

BattleCorp · 19-02-2018 04:25PM

Victor wrote: »

Note that some emergency doors will only open when the fire alarm is triggered.

This shouldn't be the case. They should open independently of the fire alarm.

What would happen if there was a fire and the fire alarm was defective?

Victor · 19-02-2018 04:29PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

This shouldn't be the case. They should open independently of the fire alarm.

What would happen if there was a fire and the fire alarm was defective?

I imagine it is designed to fail safe - that the alarm will self-report as defective and the door locks (the bolt on the bush bar will still work) will deactivate, as they can't detect the fire alarm system.

fishy_fishy · 19-02-2018 08:07PM

Victor wrote: »

Note that some emergency doors will only open when the fire alarm is triggered.

But they're emergency exits, not just fire exits. There could easily be an emergency that doesnt trigger the fire alarm so i cant see how that would be allowed. Is there a provision in the building regs/whatever governs this to allow for fire exits that are not emergency exits?

L1011 · 19-02-2018 08:12PM

Victor wrote: »

Note that some emergency doors will only open when the fire alarm is triggered.

I have never heard of this and I really suspect they would be illegal. There is no way your supposed failsafe is in fact safe.

The direct opposite - doors that trigger the alarm when opened - are quite normal.

Sleeper12 · 19-02-2018 08:13PM

spongebob89 wrote:

Is locking fire exit doors illegal for pubs ?

It's always been illegal but since the Stardust tragedy its really enforced. Quite a few of the 48 people that died that night would be alive today if the doors were unlocked

spongebob89 · 19-02-2018 08:14PM

I cant find any sort of email address to report this if anyone comes across one please post it

Sleeper12 · 19-02-2018 08:16PM

Victor wrote:

Note that some emergency doors will only open when the fire alarm is triggered.

They are actually called emergency doors. Fire doors actually close when there is a fire. Their job is to help contain a fire. Emergency doors need to be open for all emergencies & not just fire

GoProGaming · 19-02-2018 08:18PM

spongebob89 wrote: »

I cant find any sort of email address to report this if anyone comes across one please post it

What county are you in? Fire services are ran by each county council. I'm sure they all have general enquiry numbers which can point you in the direction of your local fire prevention office.

GreeBo · 19-02-2018 08:18PM

L1011 wrote: »

I have never heard of this and I really suspect they would be illegal. There is no way your supposed failsafe is in fact safe.

The direct opposite - doors that trigger the alarm when opened - are quite normal.

Those doors are actively closed by the alarm, in the event of alarm failure or alarm sounding the doors unlock.
At any time you can open the doors by smashing the door release (green box) on the inside.

If this is not the case then it's just some random door being used as an emergency exit and I would raise it.

He may have been using keys to open it without sounding the alarm to avoid panic.

Gaillimh1976 · 19-02-2018 08:18PM

spongebob89 wrote: »

I cant find any sort of email address to report this if anyone comes across one please post it

Check the website of the relevant county council

Should have name and contact details of the Fire Officer for the county

wakka12 · 19-02-2018 08:18PM

Thats really sickening and yes illegal

Sleeper12 · 19-02-2018 08:19PM

spongebob89 wrote:

I cant find any sort of email address to report this if anyone comes across one please post it

Ring your local fire station. They will have a fire officer there within the hour.

Del2005 · 19-02-2018 08:22PM

spongebob89 wrote: »

I cant find any sort of email address to report this if anyone comes across one please post it

Call your local fire station and ask for the fire inspector. If the pub wasn't local they should be able to get you in contact with the correct station.

IMO safety issues should not be dealt with by email, especially when our infrastructure for the emergency services is so obsolete.

GoProGaming · 19-02-2018 08:24PM

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Ring your local fire station. They will have a fire officer there within the hour.

Keep in mind, if this pub is located in an area that doesn't have a full time station there may not be anyone to answer the call. Most station lines are internal, call your local council office and they will put you in touch with fire prevention.

TheChizler · 19-02-2018 08:28PM

GreeBo wrote: »

He may have been using keys to open it without sounding the alarm to avoid panic.

+1

Was the door bolted or chained OP? Worth reporting to be safe if you're unsure

Sleeper12 · 19-02-2018 08:31PM

GoProGaming wrote:

Keep in mind, if this pub is located in an area that doesn't have a full time station there may not be anyone to answer the call. Most station lines are internal, call your local council office and they will put you in touch with fire prevention.

Council office is closed at this hour. Locked emergency exit you ring your local fire station as its dealt as an emergency. If station is closed phone will obviously be automatically transferred to the nearest open station. Fire officer is stationed in the fire station. There are no fire officers at the council office

fritzelly · 19-02-2018 08:44PM

Wonder if someone is getting confused with magnetically held open doors that release when the fire alarm is activated

Victor · 20-02-2018 11:53AM

fritzelly wrote: »

Wonder if someone is getting confused with magnetically held open doors that release when the fire alarm is activated

No, it's the reverse. Some doors are held closed until the fire alarm is activated. Otherwise you would have people in shops, etc. running off with expensive items or people entering nightclubs by their friends opening the fire escape.

seagull · 20-02-2018 01:52PM

We have a number of doors in our building that automatically unlock if the fire alarm is triggered. They can be also be unlocked and opened manually with no key required.

Dr Brown · 20-02-2018 02:30PM

I've seen alot of bars/clubs lock their fire exits over the years especially on harcourt street.

sydthebeat · 20-02-2018 07:20PM

No escape or fire door should be lockable by a key.

GreeBo · 20-02-2018 07:33PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

No escape or fire door should be lockable by a key.

We have yet to determine if it's just unlockable by key.

fritzelly · 20-02-2018 07:40PM

seagull wrote: »

We have a number of doors in our building that automatically unlock if the fire alarm is triggered. They can be also be unlocked and opened manually with no key required.

The fact that you say unlocked and opened goes against all regulation about a fire exit door

emergency doors and gates are not so locked or fastened that they cannot be easily and
immediately opened by any person who may need to use them in an emergency

Cannot also believe that fire exits would rely on a system where they automatically unlock when the fire alarm goes off - any kind of mechanical malfunction and you've got hundreds of dead people

Indricotherium · 20-02-2018 07:47PM

spongebob89 wrote: »

Great.

Yes OP in my photo it clearly states emergency exit only and it was locked. I am going to lodge a complaint and hope they get a serious fine or something.

Surely you hope they fix the door?

salmocab · 20-02-2018 07:48PM

Think there are a few confusions here, some exit doors have electric locks that will release when the fire alarm activates however regardless of this there must be a way to open the door manually usually by way of a green breakglass. Some doors are fire doors and will close over when the fire alarm activates these do so to stop the spread of fire but can be just pushed open as they shouldnt lock in the closed position. No emergency exit should ever be locked in the traditional sense as that would be illegal however it is possible that some are fitted with overide key switches to stop an audible alarm sounding when the door is opened this happens when doors are used for deliveries etc.

Indricotherium · 20-02-2018 07:49PM

seagull wrote: »

They can be also be unlocked and opened manually with no key required.

So are they locked or not?

fritzelly · 20-02-2018 07:51PM

salmocab wrote: »

regardless of this there must be a way to open the door manually usually by way of a green breakglass.

Sorry didn't see it because of all the smoke - regulations say must be able to be opened immediately

Victor · 20-02-2018 09:04PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

No escape or fire door should be lockable by a key.

What about the front door on most buildings?

fritzelly · 20-02-2018 09:09PM

Victor wrote: »

What about the front door on most buildings?

Why would it be locked if there are people in the building?

sydthebeat · 20-02-2018 09:18PM

Victor wrote: »

What about the front door on most buildings?

If it's a means of escape by people in the building then no, it shouldn't be locked be means of a key. Panic bolts, push bars etc are fine.

Just not keys

sydthebeat · 20-02-2018 09:20PM

GreeBo wrote: »

We have yet to determine if it's just unlockable by key.

The op said this :

The bar man had to come out with a set of keys and on top of that spent about 5 minutes finding the right key and wrestling with the door to get it open.

If it was openable without a key, he wouldn't have spent five minutes finding the right one.

Victor · 20-02-2018 09:24PM

fritzelly wrote: »

Why would it be locked if there are people in the building?

To keep people out. Whether it is a bank or an apartment building

Indricotherium wrote: »

So are they locked or not?

Being locked or unlocked is not a binary choice. Being locked does not mean needing a key to open it.

Possible options are:
* Closed, e.g. cupboard door.
* Latched, e.g. cupboard door with child lock or toilet cubicle door
* Locked on the outside, readily openable on the inside - front door of house.
* Locked on the inside, readily openable on the outside - dog kennel.
* Locked to people inside and outside, but openable after a short delay - the security lobbies in AIB branches.
* Locked on the outside, somewhat openable on the inside - front door of bank after hours (only porters, managers and security will be able to open it easily).

fritzelly wrote: »

Sorry didn't see it because of all the smoke - regulations say must be able to be opened immediately

Define "immediately". Do you have a link to the regulations?

fritzelly · 20-02-2018 09:28PM

Victor wrote: »

Define "immediately". Do you have a link to the regulations?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/467/made/en/print

Fred Swanson · 20-02-2018 09:28PM

This post has been deleted.

TheChizler · 20-02-2018 09:39PM

fritzelly wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/467/made/en/print

I'm not sure working in a pub counts as working in an extractive industry...

fritzelly · 20-02-2018 09:43PM

TheChizler wrote: »

I'm not sure working in a pub counts as working in an extractive industry...

Hahaha - didn't look at the industry. It's standard text for all industries

http://vfipubs.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Health__Safety_Handbook-LINK-to-Home-Page.pdf

But it kinda does come under extractive industry :rolleyes:

Mrs OBumble · 20-02-2018 10:33PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

If it's a means of escape by people in the building then no, it shouldn't be locked be means of a key. Panic bolts, push bars etc are fine.

Just not keys

I have been in many industrial and office buildings where the main door was key locked with no alternative. In some, I've been the one who locked the door cos it was 5pm and reception was closing. Anytenants were expected to let themselves out with their own keywhich i hope they grabbed when the alarm went off.

Being from overseas i was horried by this, but was told its standard here.

Victor · 20-02-2018 11:26PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I have been in many industrial and office buildings where the main door was key locked with no alternative. In some, I've been the one who locked the door cos it was 5pm and reception was closing. Anytenants were expected to let themselves out with their own keywhich i hope they grabbed when the alarm went off.

Being from overseas i was horried by this, but was told its standard here.

That will depend on the size of the building and the number of people occupying it - there is a big difference between a creche with 50 kids and 10 staff in it and the same creche with only the manager and two cleaners.

GM228 · 21-02-2018 06:41AM

fritzelly wrote: »

TheChizler wrote: »

I'm not sure working in a pub counts as working in an extractive industry...

Hahaha - didn't look at the industry. It's standard text for all industries

http://vfipubs.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Health__Safety_Handbook-LINK-to-Home-Page.pdf

But it kinda does come under extractive industry :rolleyes:

A pub is kinda an extractive industry?

The extraction of raw materials (metals, mineral and aggregates) from the earth is an extractive industry, whilst the odd punter may need to be extracted from the floor of the pub after a few too many the odd time a pub would still not count

But, you are on the right page as the same provision is provided under the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (General Application) Regulations 2007:-

Emergency routes and exits

12. Without predjudice to section 11 of the Act, the Fire Services Acts 1981 and 2003 (No. 30 of 1981 and No.15 of 2003) and other relevant legislation, an employer shall ensure that—

<SNIP>

(f) emergency doors and gates are not so locked or fastened that they cannot be easily and immediately opened by any person who may need to use them in an emergency

Note that the regulations don't say emergency exits can't be locked, rather they say they can be locked but must be easily and immediately openable.

ted1 · 21-02-2018 06:46AM

Victor wrote: »

BattleCorp wrote: »

This shouldn't be the case. They should open independently of the fire alarm.

What would happen if there was a fire and the fire alarm was defective?

I imagine it is designed to fail safe - that the alarm will self-report as defective and the door locks (the bolt on the bush bar will still work) will deactivate, as they can't detect the fire alarm system.

Oh how I hate the word imagine , it gives people an excuse to talk rubbish.

The door is an emergency exit. Not s fire exit. A fire alarm would not go off during a gas leak, over crowding crush, terrorist attack , roof collapse etc

sydthebeat · 21-02-2018 06:55AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I have been in many industrial and office buildings where the main door was key locked with no alternative. In some, I've been the one who locked the door cos it was 5pm and reception was closing. Anytenants were expected to let themselves out with their own keywhich i hope they grabbed when the alarm went off.

Being from overseas i was horried by this, but was told its standard here.

Key locking an unoccupied building, while not perfect, isn't illegal.
Also, not all main entrances are escape routes eg quite often in hotels etc the escape routes do not lead to the main access as that brings people into large open plan areas where they could get lost if that's lots of smoke.
Stair well escape routes leading to the outside are the primary means of escape.

The rule of thumb, if there's an emergency exit sign and light over it, it shouldn't be key lockable.

GreeBo · 21-02-2018 11:18AM

sydthebeat wrote: »

The op said this :

The bar man had to come out with a set of keys and on top of that spent about 5 minutes finding the right key and wrestling with the door to get it open.

If it was openable without a key, he wouldn't have spent five minutes finding the right one.

He would if opening it would sound the alarm.

GreeBo · 21-02-2018 11:23AM

sydthebeat wrote: »

Key locking an unoccupied building, while not perfect, isn't illegal.
Also, not all main entrances are escape routes eg quite often in hotels etc the escape routes do not lead to the main access as that brings people into large open plan areas where they could get lost if that's lots of smoke.
Stair well escape routes leading to the outside are the primary means of escape.

The rule of thumb, if there's an emergency exit sign and light over it, it shouldn't be key lockable.

All emergency exits can be locked, with or without a key.

The requirement is that you must not *require* a key to unlock it.

This is *not* the same as it being possible to unlock it using a key.

Opening an emergency exit will sound the alarm, unlocking it with a key will not sound the alarm. There is nothing wrong with this.

Is locking fire exit door illegal for pubs ?

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