Is the new Feminist movement damaging male female relationships?

kunst nugget · 17-04-2018 10:58AM

beefburrito wrote: »

It's all part of the healing process, women are entitled to be bitter, sad and lonely if they've been mistreated and put up with agaslighter alcoholic or narcissist...

You're quite entitled to feel that way if you want but it doesn't stop it being completely irrational - Let's say I have a neighbour a couple of doors down that's a bit of a prick, I don't extrapolate it out so that I now believe all my neighbours are going to be pricks based on the negative experiences with that one neighbour.

Blaming an entire sex for not having great relationships in the past is a bit out there and being proud of yourself for doing it and giving yourself a label is on another level again.

Wibbs · 17-04-2018 11:07AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Blaming an entire sex for not having great relationships in the past is a bit out there and being proud of yourself for doing it and giving yourself a label is on another level again.

Never mind that it tries to absolve all personal responsibility in play. I've gone out with "wagons" in the past. And guess who picked them, guess who stuck around while they were displaying dodgy words and actions? Yep, that's right, me. I was at least 50% responsible for what went down in the longer term. It doesn't make them less of a twat, but it kinda makes me more of one for buying into it with both eyes open. Which is excusable if you're 15 on your first rodeo, but not as an adult. Plus if I looked back and found that all my past relationships were toxic(they weren't), then given that most people aren't toxic, then the only common denominator is..? Two for two. Me. Again.

17-04-2018 11:13AM

I find anyone who has “feminist” in their bio/profile or needs to announce off the bat that they’re one is more often than not someone who is gonna be a massive pain in the hole. Just feel like the word and the movement have been tarnished in the last few years by absolute radicals. I’ve no issue with anybody who wants to see equality across the board though, I do myself.

Feminism today, to me, doesn’t mean the same as what it did when it was first coined. Women couldn’t vote, women couldn’t do lots of things that we all enjoy today. Outside of the 8th debate, are there many actual avenues in this country where women and men aren’t on an even keel? I’d much prefer a more equalitarian term. I’m all for equality in all walks of life, love my sisters and brothers the same, respect my female and male colleagues the same, voted yes to equal marriage, will vote to repeal the 8th but plenty of the fringes do the more normal folks a disservice in my opinion.

Maxpfizer · 17-04-2018 11:14AM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Then on the rape trail - that was a narrative that all men need to change. It was a very disrespectful angle as I know 100s of incredibly decent men and what went on in that case - had no resemblance to the decent and good character of these men - all fathers, brothers, uncles, grandads, friends to women who love them.

The thing about this narrative in the aftermath of that trial is that it completely ignores the role that women played in raising these guys.

So the 4 guys turned out bad and have a bad attitude to women. How does it follow then that it's the responsibility of "Men" to fix that?

Did these lads have no contact with Women at all until that night?

Don't they have female relatives and friends? Where were they when this bad attitude towards women was developing?

Oh no, it lands on "Men" who have never met or interacted with these clowns. Sh!t, I've never played rugby or ever been to a rugby match in my life.

So surely female fans of rugby have contributed more to rugby's toxic environment than men who never had, and never will have, any interest or interaction with the game?

A lot of that feels like passing the buck to me. People realise that sexual assault etc is never going to go away. Horrific stuff related to this is always going to be a part of our society.

If you can't ever stop it then the next best thing is to pass the buck.

Blaming "Men" or "Patriarchy" for "Rape Culture" is just another form of something like blaming video games for school shootings.

"Men have to do something about this!" Why? I didn't raise these rugby d!ckheads. I never had anything to do with them.

Why should Men be considered more responsible for this stuff that these men's own mothers? Who raised these guys and why isn't it their fault?

meeeeh · 17-04-2018 11:28AM

Maxpfizer wrote: »

The thing about this narrative in the aftermath of that trial is that it completely ignores the role that women played in raising these guys.

So the 4 guys turned out bad and have a bad attitude to women. How does it follow then that it's the responsibility of "Men" to fix that?

Did these lads have no contact with Women at all until that night?

Don't they have female relatives and friends? Where were they when this bad attitude towards women was developing?

Oh no, it lands on "Men" who have never met or interacted with these clowns. Sh!t, I've never played rugby or ever been to a rugby match in my life.

So surely female fans of rugby have contributed more to rugby's toxic environment than men who never had, and never will have, any interest or interaction with the game?

A lot of that feels like passing the buck to me. People realise that sexual assault etc is never going to go away. Horrific stuff related to this is always going to be a part of our society.

If you can't ever stop it then the next best thing is to pass the buck.

Blaming "Men" or "Patriarchy" for "Rape Culture" is just another form of something like blaming video games for school shootings.

"Men have to do something about this!" Why? I didn't raise these rugby d!ckheads. I never had anything to do with them.

Why should Men be considered more responsible for this stuff that these men's own mothers? Who raised these guys and why isn't it their fault?

I don't think 'men' were supposed to be responsible for them, neither were their parents. They are grown ups, they are responsible for their own actions nobody else. However they obviously moved in circles which promoted the attitude of entitlement. As a woman I don't like to be called slut, this might fly a bit over men's heads because they were never demonized for their consensual sexual exploits, they are usually celebrated. It's not that men have to change but the culture in certain circles should. For whatever reason those circles are male dominated possibly because male team sport is a lot more lucrative than female.

17-04-2018 11:38AM

Grayson wrote: »

You're right. Women are the sexis ones who have been oppressing men for centuries.

Actually, if you take a balanced look at history and culture, many women walked hand-in-hand with men in 'oppressing' the rights of other women. Throughout history, we do have women in positions of power who simply reinforced the status quo... and then we have many women who enjoyed the safety/comfort of being a woman without these rights. At the time of the Suffrage movement, there were anti-Suffrage movements by women who didn't want to lose the lifestyles they had, and opposed the changes proposed.

It's the same logic sees the stereotype that women were the primary parents of children while the male was working, but ignores the great influence they had over the values of their children. It ignores that women in many periods of our history have been the teachers of children reinforcing the status quo rather than encouraging them to believe women to be equals. Instead, reasons will be found to excuse women and to pass all responsibility on to the male gender... No excuses for the males though. Convenient that.

The idea that women were solely oppressed by men is a propaganda piece designed to make men the enemy. It ignores the men who fought for female rights, because it's not convenient to acknowledge that women's rights were brought about and later protected by both genders.

How often do I have to point out that one single story about women groping men in kilts does not illustrate a trend.

Agreed, since most men don't wear kilts. However, some actual research into the topic, funded by the organisations supposedly aimed at 'equality' would be nice to see.

As we are so often told about male harassment of women, just because the research/statistics aren't there, doesn't mean it's not happening, and could be happening more than you think.

Here's a bit of advice. Get down of the fcuking cross.

Easily applied to both genders.

You are not being oppressed by feminism. Feminism is an objective good thing. And if you feel awkward having these conversations about what men can and can't do to women, well the conversation was long overdue.

Feminism is not a solid block of aims. It's not a single organisation with clear aims, and coordinated views. It's mishmash of beliefs from the moderate to the extreme, and some are offensive. Others are perfectly acceptable.

My mother was a feminist (as was my father). She marched with my father in the 60s/70s for female rights and employment equality. She fought for her own place in management of a school when most principals were male. She's not a feminist anymore, because modern feminism doesn't want equality. She believes that modern feminism is more about punishing men than promoting womens rights, and she lives in a country that is equal for the genders.

I realise having a go at feminists seems to be having a resurgence now. Unless you enjoy groping and being sexist there is nothing to worry about though. Feminism is about equality.

Feminism is not about equality. That's more marketing spin. Feminism is about female rights. That's it. There is no point where feminism will stop seeking more rights/entitlements/influence for women, and will happily continue past equality in doing so.

And Feminism is receiving more criticism these days because of the manner in which feminists in promoting their views. As they should be. There are too many double standards being applied to the genders these days, and frankly, people need to complain about it.

silverharp · 17-04-2018 11:40AM

Maxpfizer wrote: »

Just looking at one "talking point" like the gender pay gap. I think a lot of the activism around this comes from people who are not in committed relationships or haven't ever been in one.

The reason why I say this is that for most people I know their relationship isn't divided into "his money" and "her money" but is seen as "OUR money". Couples go into things like buying a house and raising a child as partners and they want the best for each other.

So if the man is going for a promotion at work then his female partner isn't hoping that a woman gets the job because that will be another blow to the Patriarchy and a win for women. She wants her male partner to do the best they can for them, for their kids or their home or a new car or a nice vacation. That's probably the standard experience.

I'd agree with that , most feminists give off the impression they are on the outside looking in, they either aren't married, don't have kids or give out about sexism in STEM even though they clearly had no interest in it themselves. Generally Feminism is a self help group for feminists, there relevance to the real world is only tangental

upandcumming · 17-04-2018 11:41AM

Grayson wrote: »

Feminism is about equality.

:pac::pac::pac:

17-04-2018 11:51AM

As for the OP, no, I don't think Feminism is damaging male female relationships. I know very few women who consider themselves to be feminists, and object when the term is applied to them. They're more concerned with equal treatment. But then, the women I know are all very capable people, and aren't willing to consider themselves as victims.

I do think the feminist movement, if left unopposed, will eventually damage the way the genders perceive or interact with each other, but I'm hoping 'people' will come to their senses, dismiss the feminist ideology and push for genuine equality rather focusing on one gender over the other.

Maxpfizer · 17-04-2018 11:55AM

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't think 'men' were supposed to be responsible for them, neither were their parents. They are grown ups, they are responsible for their own actions nobody else. However they obviously moved in circles which promoted the attitude of entitlement. As a woman I don't like to be called slut, this might fly a bit over men's heads because they were never demonized for their consensual sexual exploits, they are usually celebrated. It's not that men have to change but the culture in certain circles should. For whatever reason those circles are male dominated possibly because male team sport is a lot more lucrative than female.

There are still women in those circles though. So they get a free pass?

So if a certain culture exists in these certain circles then that must mean that the women in those circles have allowed or maybe even contributed to that culture?

So it's up to the men and women in those circles to make the changes.

I don't see how bringing the rest of us into it makes a difference when we have no connections to these subcultures.

cantdecide · 17-04-2018 12:00PM

Grayson wrote: »

Feminism is about equality.

No matter how many times anyone says this, it will never be true and that's why the word 'egalitarian' exists. Selective equality is not equality.

manonboard · 17-04-2018 12:01PM

This thread https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057863116 is a perfect example of how feminism is damaging the relationship between male and females.
It is continuing to indoctrinate using broad irresponsible language a normalization of male demonization.
There is a great interdependence between people, and the mainstream message of feminism these days is "One gender is bad, the other are survivors of this badness".
There is no message of responsibility of self in situations that foster dynamics, its very one sided.
There is of course some great stuff too. There is much work to be done in the area, but it is greatly smothered by the violent cyber communication that overwhelms it.

17-04-2018 12:03PM

"things that have literally nothing to do with feminism"

LirW · 17-04-2018 12:08PM

This thread https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057863116 is a perfect example of how feminism is damaging the relationship between male and females.

Erm, the OP gets quite a battering for his views, which is fair enough because he is being quite unreasonable. OP is the father by the way.

kunst nugget · 17-04-2018 12:11PM

manonboard wrote: »

This thread https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057863116 is a perfect example of how feminism is damaging the relationship between male and females.
It is continuing to indoctrinate using broad irresponsible language a normalization of male demonization.
There is a great interdependence between people, and the mainstream message of feminism these days is "One gender is bad, the other are survivors of this badness".
There is no message of responsibility of self in situations that foster dynamics, its very one sided.
There is of course some great stuff too. There is much work to be done in the area, but it is greatly smothered by the violent cyber communication that overwhelms it.

This would be a view of men entrenched by traditional gender stereotyping rather than because of feminism I would have thought - people being suspicious of men not conforming to traditional roles in society. I would have thought a proper feminist would applaud a men taking up a job in the caring industry like this and it not being the sole preserve of women, no?

meeeeh · 17-04-2018 12:12PM

Maxpfizer wrote: »

There are still women in those circles though. So they get a free pass?

So if a certain culture exists in these certain circles then that must mean that the women in those circles have allowed or maybe even contributed to that culture?

So it's up to the men and women in those circles to make the changes.

I don't see how bringing the rest of us into it makes a difference when we have no connections to these subcultures.

Who is bringing 'the rest of us' in it? There were plenty of men disgusted by their behavior and yes women can contribute to the culture too. But you can't blame someones mother just because the child misbehaves, she might be responsible or she might be not but you are generalizing in a way you are accusing others of doing it.

suicide_circus · 17-04-2018 12:17PM

Women are happier than they've ever been I hear

professore · 17-04-2018 12:20PM

Anika Uneven Caribou wrote: »

The 8th amendment is a violation of human rights and has been flagged as such by the UN commission on human rights more than once. Now we have a bizarre juxtaposition where democratic process determines whether to continue violating basic human rights of a large section of society. Not something that should be framed as a feminist issue imo; it is a basic human rights issue.

And yet the current referendum is asking us to remove any reference to the human rights of the unborn child out of the constitution - even up to seconds before they are born. Instead of amending it with some reasonable definition.

kunst nugget · 17-04-2018 12:23PM

professore wrote: »

And yet the current referendum is asking us to remove any reference to the human rights of the unborn child out of the constitution - even up to seconds before they are born. Instead of amending it with some reasonable definition.

Which seems perfectly reasonable considering the pain in the hole the 8th amendment has caused in terms of legislation and any new insertion into the constitution creates the need for another referendum and all that entails if there's another change to it required in the future.

silverharp · 17-04-2018 12:23PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Women are happier than they've ever been I hear

in as much as one can measure it , the opposite seems to be the case.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/may/18/womens-rights-happiness-wellbeing-gender-gap

The “paradox of declining female happiness” was pointed out by economists Betsey Stevenson and Justin Wolfers, who also happen to share a house and kids. They analyzed the happiness trends of US citizens between 1970 and 2005 and found a surprising result.

Stevenson and Wolfers discovered that American women rated their overall life satisfaction higher than men in the 1970s. Thereafter, women’s happiness scores decreased while men’s scores stayed roughly stable. By the 1990s, women were less happy than men. This relative unhappiness softened after the turn of the century, but men continue to enjoy a higher sense of subjective wellbeing that is at least as high — if not higher — than women’s.

professore · 17-04-2018 12:33PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Which seems perfectly reasonable considering the pain in the hole the 8th amendment has caused in terms of legislation and any new insertion into the constitution creates the need for another referendum and all that entails if there's another change to it required in the future.

Let's just scrap the constitution altogether then and get rid of any reference to human rights as it's "a pain in the hole".

Malayalam · 17-04-2018 12:34PM

Wibbs wrote: »

By definition it's (feminism) to do with promotion of women, which is fine, but latterly it has become more and more a polarised politic of victimhood and victimiser. I would have happily self described as a feminist twenty years ago, no way would I today. Not in its current and yes pretty mainstream form. I'd bet much that quite a few men and women would be similar. We'd be 100% behind the thumbnail sketch of what we think feminism represents, but would baulk at what it actually represents with a bit more reading on the matter. IMHO most of us are egalitarians not "feminists".

This. Exactly.

And Whatever-Wave-Feminism-We're in Now is not a sideline phenomenon, these weirdoes are our policy makers of the future.

As a woman I am ashamed of modern feminism. So much victimhood, so much ideology. When going on mass hysteria demonstrations wearing a hat that symbolises female genitalia becomes a revolutionary act and frothing at the mouth about nasty men and rape culture, well feck that...it's just incredibly embarrassing.

super_furry · 17-04-2018 12:35PM

manonboard wrote: »

This thread https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057863116 is a perfect example of how feminism is damaging the relationship between male and females.

That literally has nothing to do with feminism.

kunst nugget · 17-04-2018 12:37PM

professore wrote: »

Let's just scrap the constitution altogether then and get rid of any reference to human rights as it's "a pain in the hole".

No, let's just not add anything else into the constitution that creates legal problems the way the eight amendment did. I am more than happy for abortion to be taken care of by the normal legislative process.

LirW · 17-04-2018 01:15PM

Malayalam wrote: »

This. Exactly.

And Whatever-Wave-Feminism-We're in Now is not a sideline phenomenon, these weirdoes are our policy makers of the future.

As a woman I am ashamed of modern feminism. So much victimhood, so much ideology. When going on mass hysteria demonstrations wearing a hat that symbolises female genitalia becomes a revolutionary act and frothing at the mouth about nasty men and rape culture, well feck that...it's just incredibly embarrassing.

The problem I have with it is that it sometimes scratches on the surface of valid problems but turns it into a big victimhood opera and never gets to the depth of it. There is no dialogue, there is only bashing of everyone who's not on par with a very extreme opinion. Doesn't even matter if it's men or women challenging their views with reason.
The really extreme form has no interest in procreating or children and put people down that choose to do so.

That said, when I leave this world one day I would like it to be a better place for my daughter. Not saying it's bad at the moment, but there are areas where it certainly can improve. We're very lucky to live in this part of the world where women aren't seen as second class citizens or servants by default.

Equality is a very present term too and it's thrown around a lot. Biologically there can't be equality. Women are the one's who are getting pregnant, this is still a thing that her life revolves around in the public eye. In a lot of Western countries it's still very common that a pregnancy is the end of her career or shrinks her chances of getting a good job. I do think though that Ireland is in a very progressive place in this regard (Not mentioning childcare costs there, that's another topic for another day).
It might seem as a very insignificant thing for men, but it is for women.
Other way around, men are traditionally stronger than women and work in labour intensive jobs and unless a woman brings the physical qualification it will stay like that.
BUT there are a lot of other fields where equality can definitely be done. Housework can be split equally, education should be equal, healthcare and research should be equal, traditional art fields are very male dominated because there's still a very conservative view.
I'm a bit short of being 30 and it still happened to me that my dad's side of the family was heavily discouraging me from anything remotely tech related "because Girls aren't good at maths". I know another guy my age whose parents decide to put him into a private school while his sisters had to go to public schools because he's a boy, there is a high potential in his influence and earning power with daddy's good contacts.
I think you get the notion.

While there is so much progress already it shouldn't stop there. Lots of people have daughters and most likely want them to see in the best world possible for them in the future.
I of course wish my son the same but when I compare the obstacles that they individually might face in the future because of their gender, while they are entirely different, I do think the girl would have it a bit tougher (it's not all ponies and roses for the boy either).

I wish people would differentiate the issue more than just "BUT THOSE FEMINAZIS" or "BUT WHAT ABOUT EQUALITY THERE". It's a delicate issue with many different sub issues and it's okay to have not a steady opinion on all of them because some are major, some are very minor.

citytillidie · 17-04-2018 01:19PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

And what of the entitled attitude of some women towards men's bodies, Hapax?

Says it all really

meeeeh · 17-04-2018 01:24PM

Malayalam wrote: »

This. Exactly.

And Whatever-Wave-Feminism-We're in Now is not a sideline phenomenon, these weirdoes are our policy makers of the future.

As a woman I am ashamed of modern feminism. So much victimhood, so much ideology. When going on mass hysteria demonstrations wearing a hat that symbolises female genitalia becomes a revolutionary act and frothing at the mouth about nasty men and rape culture, well feck that...it's just incredibly embarrassing.

I would call myself feminist there are definitely people in femist movement that I consider idiots. However I never felt the need to be ashamed for any views I don't hold myself. Why would you need to feel ashamed for views you don't agree with.

jimgoose · 17-04-2018 01:25PM

I work/socialise/speak with women all the time, and the only times the Eighth Amendment or the Belfast rape trial are mentioned is when I bring them up. So as far as I am personally concerned, no.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 17-04-2018 01:35PM

There’s many kind of feminists and feminisms.

Anglo feminism seems to inherit from Marxism.

Marxism had an oppressor group, an oppressed group and a structure describing the oppression.

Oppressor: capitalists
Oppressed: workers
Structure: capitalism

In feminist theory its

Oppressor: men
Oppressed: women
Structure: patriarchy.

At least Marxism made some sense though as it explained the structural inequalities as caused by ownership in capitalist societies. Capitalists own the factory, a worker works in the factory, the capitalist exploits the profit. And by and large all capitalists (some small businesses aside) are richer than all workers. If you aren’t you are better working.

feminism just averages all wages between genders, finds a fairly trivial difference in earnings (at least by comparison to class based differences) and declares all men to be a ruling class oppressing all women.

manonboard · 17-04-2018 01:36PM

LirW wrote: »

Erm, the OP gets quite a battering for his views, which is fair enough because he is being quite unreasonable. OP is the father by the way.

Yes, they do, and i'm glad of the rebuttals of people for that. Its important to stamp out. Yes aware of the father thing. I dont think current feminism aims it's message to solely one gender. The message hits all of us, and affects our view of things. Ive felt myself many times in the past questions aspects of myself that i know came from those kinds of messages. If we constantly tell one gender they are bad, that gender ends up with alot of guilt/shame. The same thing has happened to women throughout the ages.

kunst nugget wrote: »

This would be a view of men entrenched by traditional gender stereotyping rather than because of feminism I would have thought - people being suspicious of men not conforming to traditional roles in society. I would have thought a proper feminist would applaud a men taking up a job in the caring industry like this and it not being the sole preserve of women, no?

I'd agree that it certainly has elements of gender stereotyping. However i think it's too simple to say a society has media mainstreaming the feminist agenda, which characterises men as sinful/dangerous abusers of all females, is quite likely to be playing into the OP's narrative which his fears are founded on. We are constantly being told how men are all potential rapists, abusers, we should be silent in a room when women speak, we should give way on a foot path because we are so scary to just walk beside.
These types of messages greatly reinforce those demonized gender stereo types you mention.

Yeah, I think a proper feminist would definitely support reducing those gender role stereotypes and applaud a man for taking the career. However proper equal feminism is not what i see in todays version of it. (with obvious huge amounts of people that ARE proper feminists too of course)

Is the new Feminist movement damaging male female relationships?

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