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Is the new Feminist movement damaging male female relationships?

12357…20

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  • #122
    cantdecide
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,364 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    Grayson wrote: »
    You can't blame women because they happen to do better in it.

    Much of the reason is because girls collectively on average mature faster. Something we all know to be true. Boys spend more time behind as a consequence and that bears out in the outcomes so where is the progressive solution to equalise the genders for boys? It's just not a problem, right? Girls are just better at school?


  • #123
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Is there actually some new research on it, because when I was in school it was ascertained girls mature earlier and have the advantage up to a certain age. That was 20 years ago and there were discussions of quotas for boys in medicine to get larger numbers in. That was not in Ireland but I didn't think it's new phenomena.

    theres research on all and any of it, as you can imagine a lot of it comes with an agenda or can be used to support one without taking all factors into account.

    but, leaving aside an acceptance that girls "mature" (i mean what does that even mean tho!) at a rate faster than boys, the noted results ought to be treated as a challenge to be investigated, ascertained and solutions put forward, debated etc.

    the attitude above was "tough sh1t lads" which speaks volumes

    nb (sorry i nb a lot) id advocate that gender pay gaps, representation in positions of influence etc all be treated in a similar fashion, but the investigative piece is important and extremely difficult to manage without an interest group getting an oar in in most/any of these larger social trends and issues.

    but sure isnt that half the craic


  • #124
    evil_seed
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭evil_seed


    All of todays movements are echo chambers for online communities. I see nothing happening in the real work getting impacted by this


  • #125
    utyh2ikcq9z76b
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭utyh2ikcq9z76b


    Icemancometh wrote: »
    It's a system dominated by woman (as in number of teachers), in which girls get far superior outcomes to boys.

    Exactly
    The figures, released in support of World Teachers' Day, show that 87 per cent of primary school teachers here are female while 71 per cent of positions in secondary schools were held by women.


  • #126
    cantdecide
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,364 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    The figures, released in support of World Teachers' Day, show that 87 per cent of primary school teachers here are female while 71 per cent of positions in secondary schools were held by women.

    Between junior infants and sixth class, I had three female teachers and five male. That would be statistically a near impossibility today. In the grand scheme of things, this trend has occurred in the blink of an eye.


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  • #127
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Deleted User wrote: »
    theres research on all and any of it, as you can imagine a lot of it comes with an agenda or can be used to support one without taking all factors into account.

    but, leaving aside an acceptance that girls "mature" (i mean what does that even mean tho!) at a rate faster than boys, the noted results ought to be treated as a challenge to be investigated, ascertained and solutions put forward, debated etc.

    the attitude above was "tough sh1t lads" which speaks volumes

    nb (sorry i nb a lot) id advocate that gender pay gaps, representation in positions of influence etc all be treated in a similar fashion, but the investigative piece is important and extremely difficult to manage without an interest group getting an oar in in most/any of these larger social trends and issues.

    but sure isnt that half the craic
    Sure what is the problem with the quotas if they are needed? The other option is to send boy to school a year later.


  • #128
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    I don't think so, no. I think the current culture of tolerating "men are scum" style headlines etc in the media, but lashing out against anti-female ones, is probably doing incredible psychological harm to young boys (just like the "never hit a girl even if she hits you" and "ladies first" stuff, certain personality types will hear this sh!t and develop "why do I matter less just because I'm a boy?" type thoughts). But I think as far as adults of Generation Y or older go, people generally have their political minds more or less made up, and are generally capable of separating the political from the personal - of course there are always exceptions, but I know very view people on either side of the debate in their mid twenties or older, who aren't capable of putting aside politics when it comes to personal relationships and friendships. In other words, I know very few people at that age who are going to cut a friend out of their lives for being on the wrong side of a political issue. Of course there are exceptions - just as I'm sure there are exceptions among generations Z and younger, wherein even if taking politics personally is the order of the day as it seems to be among many, there are almost certainly individuals who don't think that way.


  • #129
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Sure what is the problem with the quotas if they are needed?

    Because it makes 'equality' legislation about the workplace a joke. Now that we have laws which protect a persons right to fair treatment and appraisal in the workplace.... Lets sidestep it, ignore the competitive nature of workplaces, and give people a boost based on their gender.

    It's a middle finger to any person who has worked from the bottom upwards to success, and established themselves through their own hard work. It's not as if we don't already have laws, and agencies in place to prevent gender discrimination.


  • #130
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,199 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Because it makes 'equality' legislation about the workplace a joke. Now that we have laws which protect a persons right to fair treatment and appraisal in the workplace.... Lets sidestep it, ignore the competitive nature of workplaces, and give people a boost based on their gender.

    It's a middle finger to any person who has worked from the bottom upwards to success, and established themselves through their own hard work. It's not as if we don't already have laws, and agencies in place to prevent gender discrimination.

    I genuinely cannot fathom why so many apparently intelligent people consider gender or racial quotas to be a good idea?


  • #131
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Grayson wrote: »
    Are you complaining that when women enter the education system they perform better? That's not a feminist agenda to put men down. The education system hasn't changed much in the last hundred years. They still have daily lessons, homework and then exams. That's a system that was designed by men and for most time only had men in it. You can't blame women because they happen to do better in it.

    In any other area of life, when men are overwhelmingly doing better at something and getting more benefits because of that, feminists attribute it to some kind of discrimination (personal or cultural) and demand that action be taken to balance the scales. The fact that this doesn't happen with school results and university admissions is a glaring example of how some feminists are just unimaginable, insufferable hypocrites.


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  • #132
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Sure what is the problem with the quotas if they are needed? The other option is to send boy to school a year later.


    sincere apologies but i dont think it would be possible to have a good-faith discussion on gender issues with you on boards.ie, just an observation, stay well, etc


  • #133
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Because it makes 'equality' legislation about the workplace a joke. Now that we have laws which protect a persons right to fair treatment and appraisal in the workplace.... Lets sidestep it, ignore the competitive nature of workplaces, and give people a boost based on their gender.

    It's a middle finger to any person who has worked from the bottom upwards to success, and established themselves through their own hard work. It's not as if we don't already have laws, and agencies in place to prevent gender discrimination.

    I was actually suggesting quotas in universities to help more boys to get into course. But if you don't like quotas then I don't know how you can help boys in education.


  • #134
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,199 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I was actually suggesting quotas in universities to help more boys to get into course. But if you don't like quotas then I don't know how you can help boys in education.

    I for one consider quotas in favour of boys/men to be every bit as bad as quotas for girls/women.


  • #135
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Because it makes 'equality' legislation about the workplace a joke. Now that we have laws which protect a persons right to fair treatment and appraisal in the workplace.... Lets sidestep it, ignore the competitive nature of workplaces, and give people a boost based on their gender.

    It's a middle finger to any person who has worked from the bottom upwards to success, and established themselves through their own hard work. It's not as if we don't already have laws, and agencies in place to prevent gender discrimination.

    Would you not ever think though there is need for positive discrimination or quotas ? For instance in education most children go through their entire primary school without having a male teacher and few enough of them in post primary, always of course the woodwork and metalwork teachers being men. I think this is a negative for the school environment and for both boys and girls to never have a male teaching imput but also boys are then reluctant to go for teaching as a profession if they associate it as a female job. So sometimes it's not just about putting the choices out there and saying anyone is free to go for it but about having a critical mass of both genders so male and female feel comfortable going for those choices. No ?


  • #136
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I was actually suggesting quotas in universities to help more boys to get into course. But if you don't like quotas then I don't know how you can help boys in education.

    You can help them by designing curriculum that results in better attention, and engages them in actually learning. Studies show that females are better at sitting still in the classroom, while boys are more likely to get bored while in such a position. Other studies show that students having their mind wander in classes, actually shows greater creativity but the modern school system seeks to punish them into conforming to a strict system. Rather than assuming such behavior is a negative trait, design the educational systems to cater to encouraging males (and females) to learn in a different manner.

    You can recognise that males and females have different behaviors, and stop trying to force a single educational philosophy on them all.

    Gender related quotas aren't the answer because it encourages people to think those involved are somehow inferior and therefore need the extra help to succeed. Instead, develop the educational facility to provide actual help that caters to the individuals own potential.


  • #137
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I was actually suggesting quotas in universities to help more boys to get into course. But if you don't like quotas then I don't know how you can help boys in education.

    Im not even sure it would be a good goal to achieve, there are a lot of pointless degree courses these days, Journalism, "Communications" , apart from being an entry ticket , its not a very good use of 4 years of your time.
    More important to build up the idea of quality apprenticeship and other useful vocational routes

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #138
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,725 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    cantdecide wrote: »
    Much of the reason is because girls collectively on average mature faster. Something we all know to be true. Boys spend more time behind as a consequence and that bears out in the outcomes so where is the progressive solution to equalise the genders for boys? It's just not a problem, right? Girls are just better at school?

    Got any proof of that?
    Icemancometh wrote: »
    It's a system dominated by woman (as in number of teachers), in which girls get far superior outcomes to boys.

    And do you have any proof for that? Because it'd be easy to see if classes with male teachers perform different to classes with female teachers.



    personally i think there are a number of factors that can contribute. I don't think the girls mature faster thing is true. I don't think physical maturity has anything to do with it. It might be that girls have more responsibility from an earlier age, especially in poorer families and that can make a difference.

    It's also been shown that in poorer families the gap between girl and boys is more than it is in richer families. And considering feminism would be more common in better off families it's unlikely that feminism is to blame for the difference.
    However it may be that more traditional gender roles are enforced in poorer families and they may be responsible. It may be that guys have a bigger focus on manual tasks than academic tasks in those families.

    Of course this is all generalised. There will be people from poorer families who outperform kids from richer families. Really we need more studies to learn more. And we need to figure out how we help young men.

    Of course if I suggested something to help get more women into politics or management or anything like that I'd be told that it was sexist. However because boys are performing suddenly all the anti feminists are fine taking action to help a gender. Or in some cases they think it's a feminist conspiracy to keep men down.


  • #139
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    jimgoose wrote: »
    I for one consider quotas in favour of boys/men to be every bit as bad as quotas for girls/women.

    What do you suggest, dumbing down education so the boys could keep up with girls?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/10529134/Girls-really-do-mature-quicker-than-boys-scientists-find.html


  • #140
    cantdecide
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,364 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    Grayson wrote: »
    Got any proof of that?

    Proof that girls mature faster? Yeah, I just have to find proof for someone on another thread that water's wet. BRB.


  • #141
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,511 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Anika Uneven Caribou wrote: »
    The 8th amendment is a violation of human rights and has been flagged as such by the UN commission on human rights more than once. Now we have a bizarre juxtaposition where democratic process determines whether to continue violating basic human rights of a large section of society. Not something that should be framed as a feminist issue imo; it is a basic human rights issue.

    Do that not depend on what way you look at it though?

    I mean realistically, it's easy to say that an fetus has no rights, but why stop there...


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  • #142
    Rory28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rory28


    twinytwo wrote: »
    Do that not depend on what way you look at it though?

    I mean realistically, it's easy to say that an fetus has no rights, but why stop there...

    Where do you think it will go?


  • #143
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    meeeeh wrote: »
    What do you suggest, dumbing down education so the boys could keep up with girls?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/10529134/Girls-really-do-mature-quicker-than-boys-scientists-find.html

    You could accept that boys learn in a different manner to girls and tailor the curriculum to benefit both sexes. It's not about dumbing down education ffs…


  • #144
    Icemancometh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 873 ✭✭✭Icemancometh


    Grayson wrote: »
    Got any proof of that?



    And do you have any proof for that? Because it'd be easy to see if classes with male teachers perform different to classes with female teachers.



    personally i think there are a number of factors that can contribute. I don't think the girls mature faster thing is true. I don't think physical maturity has anything to do with it. It might be that girls have more responsibility from an earlier age, especially in poorer families and that can make a difference.

    It's also been shown that in poorer families the gap between girl and boys is more than it is in richer families. And considering feminism would be more common in better off families it's unlikely that feminism is to blame for the difference.
    However it may be that more traditional gender roles are enforced in poorer families and they may be responsible. It may be that guys have a bigger focus on manual tasks than academic tasks in those families.

    Of course this is all generalised. There will be people from poorer families who outperform kids from richer families. Really we need more studies to learn more. And we need to figure out how we help young men.

    Of course if I suggested something to help get more women into politics or management or anything like that I'd be told that it was sexist. However because boys are performing suddenly all the anti feminists are fine taking action to help a gender. Or in some cases they think it's a feminist conspiracy to keep men down.

    I made two claims. First that the numbers of female teachers is far higher than male teachers, and second that girls are getting far better outcomes from our education system at the moment. I don't think either of these are controversial claims, but I could get the figures for you if you like.


  • #145
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,199 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    meeeeh wrote: »
    What do you suggest, dumbing down education so the boys could keep up with girls?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/10529134/Girls-really-do-mature-quicker-than-boys-scientists-find.html

    I suggest a complete overhaul of the current ridiculous system whereby examination candidates score "points" based on ability to store and regurgitate reams of useless information. This system suits a Hitachi Vantara, it does not suit human beings.


  • #146
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    I don't think it's just at the moment that girls get better results it's just that today girls have higher expectations and stay in education.


  • #147
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Grayson wrote: »
    Got any proof of that?

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-girls-outperform-boys-in-vast-majority-of-subjects-1.2760975

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gender-gap-boys-lagging/


  • #148
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Would you not ever think though there is need for positive discrimination or quotas ? For instance in education most children go through their entire primary school without having a male teacher and few enough of them in post primary, always of course the woodwork and metalwork teachers being men. I think this is a negative for the school environment and for both boys and girls to never have a male teaching imput but also boys are then reluctant to go for teaching as a profession if they associate it as a female job. So sometimes it's not just about putting the choices out there and saying anyone is free to go for it but about having a critical mass of both genders so male and female feel comfortable going for those choices. No ?

    Nope. I don't. I don't particularly like the stereotypes that say a person should be this kind of teacher or the other. I had female English teachers, does that mean teaching English was a female job? Hardly.

    We have sought to create a society where personal choice in our careers is important. Our society has sought to move away from the pressure on women to solely become nurses or teachers, and to encourage diversity in other industries. In fact, we have introduced laws to prevent discrimination against women who choose to become soldiers or a carpenter. But it all comes down to choice.

    In Ireland, teaching has become a female dominated area because males turned away from it due to other factors (salary, reliability of contracts etc). We are now seeing an increase in the numbers of male teachers because those factors are no longer (or less of) an issue.

    If women want to be politicians, then they can go out campaigning for votes or seek the support needed to become one. They can go through the same procedures that men do, because we have the system in place to provide equal treatment of gender, and the legal procedures in place, should she feel that gender discrimination is an issue. [As do men]

    The fact is though that few women are interested in politics as a career, and are more interested in other careers. Just as we have very few females working in waste collection/disposal. Do you really want to reinforce gender stereotypes, or encourage a more equal society?


  • #149
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,725 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You can help them by designing curriculum that results in better attention, and engages them in actually learning. Studies show that females are better at sitting still in the classroom, while boys are more likely to get bored while in such a position. Other studies show that students having their mind wander in classes, actually shows greater creativity but the modern school system seeks to punish them into conforming to a strict system. Rather than assuming such behavior is a negative trait, design the educational systems to cater to encouraging males (and females) to learn in a different manner.

    You can recognise that males and females have different behaviors, and stop trying to force a single educational philosophy on them all.

    Gender related quotas aren't the answer because it encourages people to think those involved are somehow inferior and therefore need the extra help to succeed. Instead, develop the educational facility to provide actual help that caters to the individuals own potential.

    When I suggested that we should change the way cummans are organised so we get more women into politics I was told that it's wrong to make any changes. If women aren't in politics it's their own fault.

    There are people here who think that changing anything to help women is wrong. However I'd be surprised if any of them object to your suggestions.

    I'm all in favor of small changes in policy to help certain groups. Public policy shouldn't be static and monolithic. IT should be something that constantly shifts and changes to adapt to different times and situations to make sure no-one is at an unfair disadvantage.


  • #150
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I don't think it's just at the moment that girls get better results it's just that today girls have higher expectations and stay in education.

    Why do they have higher expectations and stay in education more than boys?


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  • #151
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    jimgoose wrote: »
    I suggest a complete overhaul of the current ridiculous system whereby examination candidates score "points" based on ability to store and regurgitate reams of useless information. This system suits a Hitachi Vantara, it does not suit human beings.

    I agree but even if you change the system chances are girls will still outperform boys.


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