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M7/N18/M20 - Limerick Southside Access Improvement

Comments

  • #2
    Mc Love
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    That is fantastic - hopefully a solution is found sooner rather than later, but i suspect it will be later


  • #3
    Limerick74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 486 ✭✭Limerick74


    Not sure if this is a TII Scheme or just Limerick Regeneration trying to get a new motorway entrance.


  • #4
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,591 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Resident complaints caused the Rossbrien Interchange to have no Motorway to local access.

    A few months after it opened, there were complaints from the same residents over a lack of access.


  • #5
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    Resident complaints caused the Rossbrien Interchange to have no Motorway to local access.

    A few months after it opened, there were complaints from the same residents over a lack of access.

    It's general rule number 7 (made up :)), as soons as there is a planning application, object.
    Doesn't matter what it's actually for.
    BANANA - build absolutely nothing anywhere near anyone.


  • #6
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    I hope that they'll install a full cloverleaf junction to cater for all possible traffic movements. I think that this would provide the greatest access to the south side of the city such as Roxboro, Ballinacurra, Janesboro and Galvone.


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  • #7
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,732 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Sintend wrote: »
    I hope that they'll install a full cloverleaf junction to cater for all possible traffic movements. I think that this would provide the greatest access to the south side of the city such as Roxboro, Ballinacurra, Janesboro and Galvone.

    The only movement missing really is the M20 to the city. The junction already has access from the N18 and M7 traffic can enter the city via J29.


  • #8
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    The only movement missing really is the M20 to the city. The junction already has access from the N18 and M7 traffic can enter the city via J29.
    No I don't agree as then people will still have to go to the Ballysimon Junction rather than gaining direct access to the south side. This project should be about improving direct access to the area.


  • #9
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,732 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Sintend wrote: »
    No I don't agree as then people will still have to go to the Ballysimon Junction rather than gaining direct access to the south side. This project should be about improving direct access to the area.


    Anyone traveling South on the M7 can already use J29 to get to Roxboro via the Ballysimon Rd and Childers Rd. The distance is about the same as getting there via J30 would be. There is no need to add this movement to J30. There is also already access from the N18 to Roxboro. The only movement that is missing is the M20 to Roxboro, so that's the only movement that has to rectified.


  • #10
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Anyone traveling South on the M7 can already use J29 to get to Roxboro via the Ballysimon Rd and Childers Rd. The distance is about the same as getting there via J30 would be. There is no need to add this movement to J30. There is also already access from the N18 to Roxboro. The only movement that is missing is the M20 to Roxboro, so that's the only movement that has to rectified.
    Having to go via the Ballysimon Road and Childers Road is bad from a traffic management perspective. The main point of the Ballysimon Junction is to allow access to the eastern side of the city i.e. Ballysimon, Castletroy, it shouldn't be used by people who want to get to the south side. We're only in this position because an inadequate junction was put in at J30 and this should be rectified by allowing all traffic movements. This will become all the more important once the M20 and M21 are built.


  • #11
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,732 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Sintend wrote: »
    Having to go via the Ballysimon Road and Childers Road is bad from a traffic management perspective. The main point of the Ballysimon Junction is to allow access to the eastern side of the city i.e. Ballysimon, Castletroy, it shouldn't be used by people who want to get to the south side. We're only in this position because an inadequate junction was put in at J30 and this should be rectified by allowing all traffic movements. This will become all the more important once the M20 and M21 are built.


    If you want bad traffic management then go ahead and route M7 and M20 traffic up by the Maldron onto a T junction. I remember what it was like when those movements were available via the old roundabout. Tailbacks from Childers Rd back as far as J2 on the M20. The Childers Rd junction cannot handle heavy traffic volumes.The Ballysimon Rd can.


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  • #12
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    If you want bad traffic management then go ahead and route M7 and M20 traffic up by the Maldron onto a T junction. I remember what it was like when those movements were available via the old roundabout. Tailbacks from Childers Rd back as far as J2 on the M20. The Childers Rd junction cannot handle heavy traffic volumes.The Ballysimon Rd can.
    The traffic lights can be set to give priority to traffic coming from the motorway. Besides there is already a slip road at the junction for left turn traffic which combined with a smart traffic light system will mitigate this issue.


  • #13
    Mc Love
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    If you want bad traffic management then go ahead and route M7 and M20 traffic up by the Maldron onto a T junction. I remember what it was like when those movements were available via the old roundabout. Tailbacks from Childers Rd back as far as J2 on the M20. The Childers Rd junction cannot handle heavy traffic volumes.The Ballysimon Rd can.

    It will alleviate the heavy traffic on the greenfields road (again not designed for the amount of traffic it handles) the tailbacks at present go past the motorway underpass and then some! Allowing for an exit from the M20 will significantly reduce this traffic. There are no houses exiting directly onto that route from the M20 unlike the many that exist on the greenfields/rosbrien road


  • #14
    Vanquished
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭Vanquished


    Sintend wrote: »
    The traffic lights can be set to give priority to traffic coming from the motorway. Besides there is already a slip road at the junction for left turn traffic which combined with a smart traffic light system will mitigate this issue.

    Why would you that when it would create significant congestion on the Childers road which is a heavily trafficked cross city route?!

    Prior to the opening of the M20 in 2001, the Carew Park link road was a quiet cul de sac servicing a housing estate, a few business premises and the old Roxboro swimming pool. It was then extended to connect to the roundabout at the end of the 'new' M20 and provide access to the Childers road, as the first phase of the Southern Ring Road would not be completed for another three years. It quickly degenerated in to a shambles as it become clear that what was effectively a narrow suburban street with many access points and conflicting movements could not handle the volume of traffic exiting the motorway. Long tailbacks were a frequent occurrence. The left turning slip road you refer to was in place back then and made no difference. Traffic levels are also far greater now than they were in 2009 when the link was removed.

    The reality is that this is a dumb, populist move. It's a sop to clueless, attention seeking Councillor's and other Politicians that will not positively impact traffic in any way. In fact it'll do the exact opposite!


  • #15
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    Vanquished wrote: »
    Why would you that when it would create significant congestion on the Childers road which is a heavily trafficked cross city route?!

    Prior to the opening of the M20 in 2001, the Carew Park link road was a quiet cul de sac servicing a housing estate, a few business premises and the old Roxboro swimming pool. It was then extended to connect to the roundabout at the end of the 'new' M20 and provide access to the Childers road, as the first phase of the Southern Ring Road would not be completed for another three years. It quickly degenerated in to a shambles as it become clear that what was effectively a narrow suburban street with many access points and conflicting movements could not handle the volume of traffic exiting the motorway. Long tailbacks were a frequent occurrence. The left turning slip road you refer to was in place back then and made no difference. Traffic levels are also far greater now than they were in 2009 when the link was removed.

    The reality is that this is a dumb, populist move. It's a sop to clueless, attention seeking Councillor's and other Politicians that will not positively impact traffic in any way. In fact it'll do the exact opposite!
    As you well know there is plenty of scope to widen that road if need be. There could even be an extra lane installed for a dual right turn system.


  • #16
    marno21
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,634 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I fully support reopening the junction for the following reasons. I would only open access to the M20, not the M7. Access to the city from the M7 is sufficient. It would also be a complex job putting in M7 access. If M7 traffic badly needs to get to that part of Roxborough they can use the Dooradoyle junction and double back

    1. The full Ring Road is open now so there is more alternatives available than heading in at that junction
    2. The alternative routes for traffic from the M20 (Rosbrien Road + Dooradoyle Road) are both residential roads. The Carew Park link and Childers Road have higher degree of segregation with no houses fronting onto them.
    3. The entire 3 routes (M7/N18/M20) are accessible leaving the city and the place isn't gridlocked at 5pm
    4. It would greatly improve access to that part of Limerick


  • #17
    Vanquished
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭Vanquished


    Sintend wrote: »
    As you well know there is plenty of scope to widen that road if need be. There could even be an extra lane installed for a dual right turn system.

    Which road are you referring to? The only 'widening' that will take place on the Childers Road will be to add bus and cycle lanes. There is a long standing plan to implement these measures.

    Widening the Carew Park link road which has a length of 500 metres at the very most will solve nothing. Only to dump more traffic on to a short stub leading to a completely underpowered junction with a cross city distributor road that carries significant traffic volumes. The proposal is bonkers!


  • #18
    Mc Love
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Vanquished wrote: »
    It quickly degenerated in to a shambles as it become clear that what was effectively a narrow suburban street with many access points and conflicting movements could not handle the volume of traffic exiting the motorway. Long tailbacks were a frequent occurrence.

    Narrow street? Its wider than the Rosbrien road ffs, and has plenty of scope for widening. I dont ever recall seeing long tailbacks there, in face there is space to put in a roundabout but I doubt the council would do that seeing as they dont care about tailbacks with the traffic lights for the turn off of the annacotty industrial estate.


  • #19
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    Vanquished wrote: »
    Which road are you referring to? The only 'widening' that will take place on the Childers Road will be to add bus and cycle lanes. There is a long standing plan to implement these measures.

    Widening the Carew Park link road which has a length of 500 metres at the very most will solve nothing. Only to dump more traffic on to a short stub leading to a completely underpowered junction with a cross city distributor road that carries significant traffic volumes. The proposal is bonkers!
    I would widen both the Carew Park Link Road and the Childers Road between that junction and the Roxboro Roundabout to implement a dual right-turn system.


  • #20
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,732 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Mc Love wrote: »
    Narrow street? Its wider than the Rosbrien road ffs, and has plenty of scope for widening. I dont ever recall seeing long tailbacks there, in face there is space to put in a roundabout but I doubt the council would do that seeing as they dont care about tailbacks with the traffic lights for the turn off of the annacotty industrial estate.

    If you don't remember tail backs there, then you don't have a very long memory. They occurred every day inbound at rush hour before the current junction opened and removed the access from the M20. I know this because I was in them most days.

    And a roundabout about 200m from the next roundabout is definitely not the answer on an already heavily trafficked road.


  • #21
    Mc Love
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    The Childers road is handling this traffic already but is impacting those houses on the rosbrien road. As has been pointed out already, there's no houses on the carew park link road, there's no houses on childers road either.


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  • #22
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,732 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Mc Love wrote: »
    The Childers road is handling this traffic already but is impacting those houses on the rosbrien road. As has been pointed out already, there's no houses on the carew park link road, there's no houses on childers road either.

    I'm well aware of this. No one is disputing this. However it doesn't take away from the fact that the last time that traffic was allowed to use this junction to exit the M20 it caused huge tailbacks at rush hour as it can't handle the volumes.

    Remember only some of the traffic is exiting at J2 and using Rosbrien. People heading to other parts of the city currently use J29 because they have no choice. But give them an exit onto Childers Rd here directly from the M20 and they'll use that rather than a junction which takes them further away from the city on one of the most heavily congested sections of motorway in the country outside of the M50 and M40.

    Quite simply while I agree Rosbrien shouldn't be handling the traffic that's currently using it, routing it all into an already heavily trafficked Roxboro isn't the solution.


  • #23
    Mc Love
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    But if there is another access point, people can choose to sit in traffic on Carew Park link rd, rosbrien road or via J29. One more access point surely has to help. Because there's no access point for M20 traffic they're blocking the existing routes, some are even coming off the M20 to travel up the Mill Road in Ballyclough, and up through Southill.


  • #24
    Vanquished
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭Vanquished


    Mc Love wrote: »
    But if there is another access point, people can choose to sit in traffic on Carew Park link rd, rosbrien road or via J29. One more access point surely has to help. Because there's no access point for M20 traffic they're blocking the existing routes, some are even coming off the M20 to travel up the Mill Road in Ballyclough, and up through Southill.

    So the solution is to add another substandard congested access route in to the mix? Just because you don't like the idea of using the N24 interchange, the N69 interchange or the Dooradoyle road, St. Nessan's road or Ballinacurra road etc etc to get in to the city?

    The reality here is that capacity enhancements for private traffic are not on the agenda for the Childers road. The city development plan and the Limerick Metropolitan Movement Strategy both commit to providing public transport priority improvements instead. The existing roundabouts are also to be replaced by signalised junctions. There will be no provision for extra traffic lanes.


  • #25
    Paddico
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭Paddico


    Can anyone tell me where they are planning this new accrss ?


  • #26
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,732 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Paddico wrote: »
    Can anyone tell me where they are planning this new accrss ?

    Nowhere yet. The tender is for a study to decide the best way to resolve the issue. Everything else in the thread is just speculation.


  • #27
    marno21
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,634 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Nowhere yet. The tender is for a study to decide the best way to resolve the issue. Everything else in the thread is just speculation.

    Tender is just to decide whether it's worth progressing, independent of route/location


  • #28
    Limerick74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 486 ✭✭Limerick74


    Extract from Brief on etenders with various options previously considered


  • #29
    Mc Love
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Vanquished wrote: »
    So the solution is to add another substandard congested access route in to the mix? Just because you don't like the idea of using the N24 interchange, the N69 interchange or the Dooradoyle road, St. Nessan's road or Ballinacurra road etc etc to get in to the city?

    The reality here is that capacity enhancements for private traffic are not on the agenda for the Childers road. The city development plan and the Limerick Metropolitan Movement Strategy both commit to providing public transport priority improvements instead. The existing roundabouts are also to be replaced by signalised junctions. There will be no provision for extra traffic lanes.

    Who's saying it is going to be substandard?All the access points are already at saturation point at rush hour, adding another access point will help alleviate that traffic somewhat.

    I dont believe its the city development plan at all, its for the people that live outside the city that work/go to school in the city that want another way to access the city instead of using roads that were never meant to be used as a thoroughfare.

    Outside of peak hours, I'm sure the people living in the vicinity would like a faster way to get home. It would also imo provide a faster route for Ambulances to get from Dooradoyle to the roxboro area of the city


  • #30
    Mc Love
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Limerick74 wrote: »
    Extract from Brief on etenders with various options previously considered

    Some really interesting options on that! Would the railway line be enough space to have a road from the Rosbrien Flyover?


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  • #31
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,732 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Mc Love wrote: »
    It would also imo provide a faster route for Ambulances to get from Dooradoyle to the roxboro area of the city

    It wouldn't. From the hospital to Roxboro via Punches Cross is 3.2km and takes 8 mins according to Google Maps. Traveling via the M20 as far as the current M7/N18/M20 junction is either 4.2km or 7.5km depending on whether you enter the M20 via J2 or J3 and both also take 8 mins.
    Mc Love wrote: »
    Some really interesting options on that! Would the railway line be enough space to have a road from the Rosbrien Flyover?

    The railway line should be a non runner as it needs to be preserved for possible future commuter rail services.


  • #32
    marno21
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,634 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Reopening the access would be more convenient for buses from the M20 and M21 to access the bus station

    I know people who are coming from the M20/M7 who drive to the Dock Road and double back to Rossbrien to get at the bus and train stations


  • #33
    Mc Love
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    marno21 wrote: »
    Reopening the access would be more convenient for buses from the M20 and M21 to access the bus station

    I know people who are coming from the M20/M7 who drive to the Dock Road and double back to Rossbrien to get at the bus and train stations

    Yeah I see people do this in the mornings too to get to the Virgin Media office.


  • #34
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    marno21 wrote: »
    Reopening the access would be more convenient for buses from the M20 and M21 to access the bus station

    I know people who are coming from the M20/M7 who drive to the Dock Road and double back to Rossbrien to get at the bus and train stations

    I've been on CIÉ buses going to Limerick/Galway where they've done just that. Otherwise they'll go to Limerick bus station via Raheen and the Crescent shopping centre and utilise the bus lanes.


  • #35
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,118 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    What about reopening the link but making it Public Transport only? It can't reopen for general traffic... it was closed for precisely the reason of chaos.


  • #36
    Mc Love
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    What about reopening the link but making it Public Transport only? It can't reopen for general traffic... it was closed for precisely the reason of chaos.

    If it gets reopened for public transport, it will eventually be reopened for public.


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