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Another solar panel query

  • 21-11-2018 09:37AM
    #1
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭


    I've just had a few quotes for solar installation.

    1 - 4kw system, 2.4kwh storage battery, 15 year warranty - €6800

    2 - 4kw system, 4kwh storage battery, 30 year warranty - €8000.

    The claim is that they would generate around 3300 kwh per year, which at day rate would save me about €500 a year giving me a payback time of 13.5 years on the first system or 16 years on the second.

    Now correct me if I'm wrong, but can I also charge that battery on night rate and then "spend" that power in the daytime? Which would give me an extra 21c or 36c per day by buying the power at night rate and saving the difference from day rate.

    That makes the savings:
    1 - €580 a year - 11.7 years payback
    2 - €630 a year - 12.7 years payback

    Thoughts?

    Is my plan on using the battery to save money by charging at night and spending in the day possible?

    If not, is a 16 year payback time reasonable on a system with a 30 year guarantee?


«1

Comments

  • #2
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    3rd quote just arrived.

    4kw system, 5kwh battery, not sure about warranty yet, €6800.

    That would be a payback of 13.5 years without the night rate battery plan, or 9.5 years with.


  • #3
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,740 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    I'm pretty ignorant of these batteries but like every battery would they not suffer degradation and therefore store less electricity in years to come and should this be factored in (plus eventual replacement)


  • #4
    dashoonage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,140 ✭✭✭dashoonage


    slave1 wrote: »
    I'm pretty ignorant of these batteries but like every battery would they not suffer degradation and therefore store less electricity in years to come and should this be factored in (plus eventual replacement)

    This is what I've always wondered should degradation and maintenance not be factored into payback.

    The grants make it very attractive at the moment.


  • #5
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,442 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Wrong forum, Phil!

    There is a dedicated "Domestic solar PV quotes 2018" thread in the Renewables forum here:

    Linky

    Quick answers to your questions, before you head over there for more info:

    1. Your quotes aren't great. The better quotes for a 4kwp system with 4.8kWh battery and immersion diverter are about €6k (after €3.8k grant)
    2. If your array is more or less south facing, an annual 3.3MWh output out of your 4kwp system in the North West of Ireland is a pretty realistic estimate
    3. AFAIK, you need an AC side battery to use it for night rate storage (not a DC side battery coupled to your solar PV system. AC coupling is a lot more expensive as it requires additional hardware). Not 100% sure on this. But some of the experts in the renewable forum will confirm
    4. Nobody is going to give a meaningful guarantee of an entire PV system for 30 years. The panels will last that long no problem, but the inverter / batteries will not.

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  • #6
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    According to the 30 year warranty one:

    ✔ 30 year Product Warranty
    ✔ Panel efficiency after 30 years - 87%
    ✔ 10 year Theft & Vandalism Warranty
    ✔ 5 year Output Guarantee

    Doesn't specify the battery but I'll clarify.


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  • #7
    dashoonage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,140 ✭✭✭dashoonage


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    According to the 30 year warranty one:

    ✔ 30 year Product Warranty
    ✔ Panel efficiency after 30 years - 87%
    ✔ 10 year Theft & Vandalism Warranty
    ✔ 5 year Output Guarantee

    Doesn't specify the battery but I'll clarify.

    Do...if someone can guarantee me a battery efficiency after 30 years ill take em please :P


  • #8
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    unkel wrote: »
    2. If your array is more or less south facing, an annual 3.3MWh output out of your 4kwp system in the North West of Ireland is a pretty realistic estimate

    Yeah my house faces east/west but the garage is north/south so I can fit a south facing 4kw no problem.


  • #9
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,442 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    That warranty is worth nothing. Solar PV panels will all last 25 years with very little efficiency loss unless they are damaged / stolen, in which case you can claim on your home insurance.

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  • #10
    ei9go
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭ei9go


    Very interesting.

    I wonder in your calculations did you allow for fuel price inflation.

    Every time the electricity goes up in price, you are saving more.

    There are two problems with these systems I think.

    Firstly a single failure of a major component like the inverter when out of warranty would totally destroy any lifetime payback.

    Second one is that the system will make virtually no power on dull grey winter days so even with a 5 kWh battery, you won't put anything into it and during the summer, you will still be exporting a big percentage of your generation.


  • #11
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,442 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Yeah my house faces east/west but the garage is north/south so I can fit a south facing 4kw no problem.

    Panels are so cheap these days that a lot of experts recommend east/west setup (particularly if you do not have a battery) as it spreads the production over the whole day instead of having a very high peak around lunchtime that comes with a south facing setup

    But best ask some of the experts on the renewable forum. I'm a novice in all of this :o

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  • #12
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    unkel wrote: »
    But best ask some of the experts on the renewable forum. I'm a novice in all of this :o

    Doesn't look like it from a brief glance around that prices page!

    It's a minefield to be honest. I though those prices sounded more reasonable than I've heard before but apparently not.


  • #13
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    I read over there that the average household electric bill is €800.

    Mine is over €1400!


  • #14
    dashoonage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,140 ✭✭✭dashoonage


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    I read over there that the average household electric bill is €800.

    Mine is over €1400!

    The average household drives a 520d though.


  • #15
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,442 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Look at the thread, you basically get a 10k system for 6k with the subsidies. If I didn't have any PV already, I would certainly consider it. But we're a family of 5 who use more than average water and electricity and we are able to charge the car up during the day to on several days a week. So our pay back period would be reasonable, probably around 10-14 years

    If your household is smaller and you are mostly away from the house during the day, you can easily double that pay back time, I'm afraid...

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  • #16
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    dashoonage wrote: »
    The average household drives a 520d though.

    I do a fair bit of my charging out and about at the minute, but even if it was all at home that would only account for about €350 a year.

    Even aside from that I use a lot of juice.

    I'd say only €250 of my annual €1400 is on the car.


  • #17
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Got a message back from quote 3, 20 year warranty on panels, 10 years on battery and invertor.


  • #18
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Phil at Electric Autos had a load of Leaf cells for sale recently for use as home storage. Dirt cheap at €100 per kWh.

    I'd have been better buying 10kwh worth and just storing night rate electricity for use in the daytime.

    They're all gone now.


  • #19
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,284 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    All the quotes I got gave 10yr warranty on the batteries... and thats the kicker really.
    If it takes ~15yrs for the battery to pay for itself, is it a sound investment. imo, no.

    If they were different tech batteries (i.e. not Li-ion) and didnt suffer degradation then it might be OK but by the time you've broken even on the battery it will be considerably degraded and you are not talking about a 100 cell EV battery, you are talking about maybe 10 cells. If one of those goes belly up you lose alot more percentage wise than if you lose a cell in an EV. i.e. the risks are higher.

    You're just praying the battery keeps going after the 15yrs to save you money. The payback is too long, imo.


    On the idea of charging up on night rate and discharging it during the day.... its a great idea in theory but it doesnt work in reality for the systems that are being quoted for (at least not the ones I got anyway).

    Think about the logistics of it...

    If you charge it up during the night you then have no ability to take the excess from the panels during the day. So you have to decide each day based on weather and other things, like are you at home, and make a decision whether you want it charged overnight or not.

    None of the systems quoted have the smarts to look ahead like that, except one that was pointed out in the renewable forum from a UK company called moixa


  • #20
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    KCross wrote: »
    If you charge it up during the night you then have no ability to take the excess from the panels during the day. So you have to decide each day based on weather and other things, like are you at home, and make a decision whether you want it charged overnight or not.

    None of the systems quoted have the smarts to look ahead like that, except one that was pointed out in the renewable forum from a UK company called moixa

    Yeah, hency my regret at not buying all the cells that Phil Fitzgerald had available.

    I could have had 10kwh of storage for €1k. Charge overnight on night rate, use during the day. Reduce daytime costs by 90c per day, or €330 per year.

    Payback in 3 years. I know a few sparks who could have helped with the setup.


  • #21
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,284 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Yeah, hency my regret at not buying all the cells that Phil Fitzgerald had available.

    I could have had 10kwh of storage for €1k. Charge overnight on night rate, use during the day. Reduce daytime costs by 90c per day, or €330 per year.

    Payback in 3 years. I know a few sparks who could have helped with the setup.

    How would it all be controlled. Taking a battery out of a Leaf isnt just a case of plugging it into a socket at home. There would need to be controllers and what not to manage the whole thing.

    Your typical spark down the road wouldnt have a clue about Li-ion.


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  • #22
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    KCross wrote: »
    Your typical spark down the road wouldnt have a clue about Li-ion.
    The reason there are no cells left is because I told a guy I know and he bought them all, lol.

    He is installing them in a home setup so I'll wait and see how he gets on.


  • #23
    conor_mc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 815 ✭✭✭conor_mc


    KCross wrote: »

    Think about the logistics of it...

    If you charge it up during the night you then have no ability to take the excess from the panels during the day. So you have to decide each day based on weather and other things, like are you at home, and make a decision whether you want it charged overnight or not.

    None of the systems quoted have the smarts to look ahead like that, except one that was pointed out in the renewable forum from a UK company called moixa

    Think you’re over-complicating the night time charging decision. You could make a pretty good stab at it by checking the month of the year imho.


  • #24
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    The reason there are no cells left is because I told a guy I know and he bought them all, lol.

    He is installing them in a home setup so I'll wait and see how he gets on.

    Curious what voltage the cells modules are working at the various stages during usage... can you share more info ,please !?


  • #25
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    rolion wrote: »
    Curious what voltage the cells modules are working at the various stages during usage... can you share more info ,please !?

    I only know what the seller told me, I'm not sure what the buyer is doing with them, I just know he has a solar system and was going to use the Leaf cells for storage.

    From the seller:
    Each module contains two lithoum cells - each 3.8V 58Ah, total 7.6V, 58Ah. 440Wh per module

    Measured 58.5Ah

    Max continuous power 1875W or 240A
    Peak current 540A

    Made for Nissan LEAF EV CAR

    Maximum voltage 4.2V per cell / 8.4V per battery
    Average voltage 3.85 V
    90% of the capacity voltage - 4.2-3.65V


  • #26
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    1 - 4kw system, 2.4kwh storage battery, 15 year warranty - €6800

    Just had an email from company number 1 who claim that the €6800 price is pre-grant. That I pay them €6800 and the grant amount comes back directly to me.

    That makes me suspicious, maybe it should or maybe it shouldn't.

    I was under the impression that the installer claimed the grant and I should only be charged the post-grant price. Also that makes a 4kw system with 2.4kwh battery only €3k which seems much too cheap compared to the average.


  • #27
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,284 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    I was under the impression that the installer claimed the grant and I should only be charged the post-grant price.

    No, they all seem to want the full price and you claim the grant yourself. Its not like buying an EV where you pay for the car with the grant given and the dealer claims the grant.

    Its probably down to each installer whether they are willing to risk something going wrong with the grant process and them being left without the money.
    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Also that makes a 4kw system with 2.4kwh battery only €3k which seems much too cheap compared to the average.

    Not a chance its €3k. If it is, sign up immediately and let us all know who is giving you that offer.


  • #28
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,442 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    KCross wrote: »
    No, they all seem to want the full price and you claim the grant yourself.

    You sure about that?

    That was the case years ago with SEAI grants (like the one I got for efficient boiler + heating controls in 2013), but my subsequent SEAI grants in 2016 for solar thermal and 2017 for EV, I just paid the net amount to the supplier and they got the grant.

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  • #29
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,284 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    You sure about that?

    That was the case years ago with SEAI grants (like the one I got for efficient boiler + heating controls in 2013), but my subsequent SEAI grants in 2016 for solar thermal and 2017 for EV, I just paid the net amount to the supplier and they got the grant.

    Im sure for at least some of them yes.

    I cant say it applies to all of them because I didnt even get as far as discussing payment terms with some as when they gave me their quotes... it was a case of "ok, thanks and good luck!"


  • #30
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    This is a local company, only started in January. I've asked for a new quote with a bigger battery than the 2.4kwh but I'm definitely suspicious.


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  • #31
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Well the new price including the 4.8kwh battery to match the other quote is €4400. And they can add 2.4kwh increments for €1400 a time. So 4kw system with 7.2kwh storage would be €5800.


  • #32
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,442 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    You sure that includes a hybrid inverter? What make and model?

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  • #33
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    unkel wrote: »
    You sure that includes a hybrid inverter? What make and model?

    That's fully fitted and installed. Panels, battery and inverter. He also said that it's no problem to charge the battery on night rate.

    I'll ask what model everything is.


  • #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Just had a quick browse of all the threads I missed in the last while, had to chime in on this.

    Battery storage is a bit like people going for heat pumps , they're very expensive and the pay back is too long and by the time you start to receive payback could be the time you have to spend a lot of money on fixing it or replacing it.

    Check out the company that supplies the battery and the warranty provided by the manufacturer themselves. Get details and price list for everything.

    Put that money into insulation and worry about solar PV when Ireland has a Feed-In-tariff which could be years but by then solar pv will be a lot cheaper.

    The Grid will become your unlimited battery that never degrades and costs you nothing but paying you more than you'd get by having a battery.

    You're saving a lot now on fossil fuels by driving EV. A night meter is a good saving, we use a little over half on the night rate + most of my charging is done in work.

    When batteries get large enough I might consider some kind of vehicle to home device so I can charge in work and run the house on the work juice when I get home including a leccy heater or two for a few hrs, I could easily do it with a 40 Kwh battery, even if I got 4-5 Kwh worth from the work charge point per day when on shift it all adds up and that's a decent bit of juice, next day back to work charge up on 3 phase 11 kw ! :D

    BMW are going with 44 Kwh for the 2019 i3 and who knows might be 50 Kwh by 2020 when It's time to change. Damn, have it a year already , time's moving fast.


  • #35
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,442 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Just had a quick browse of all the threads I missed in the last while, had to chime in on this.

    Battery storage is a bit like people going for heat pumps , they're very expensive and the pay back is too long

    You really have been away from it all for a good few months, haven't you? :p

    A PV subsidy was brought in during the summer that provides an extra €1,000 subsidy to have a battery installed (any size battery). The most common and well know Li-ion home storage battery of 2.4kWh costs just €980 + VAT

    Ergo, it costs very little extra to have a battery installed and the pay back time is only a few years. If you go for a subsidised PV install, you'd be mad not to include at least a small battery

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  • #36
    conor_mc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 815 ✭✭✭conor_mc


    unkel wrote: »
    You really have been away from it all for a good few months, haven't you? :p

    A PV subsidy was brought in during the summer that provides an extra €1,000 subsidy to have a battery installed (any size battery). The most common and well know Li-ion home storage battery of 2.4kWh costs just €980 + VAT

    Ergo, it costs very little extra to have a battery installed and the pay back time is only a few years. If you go for a subsidised PV install, you'd be mad not to include at least a small battery

    Plus difference between a regular and a hybrid inverter of several hundred euro.


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  • #37
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66,442 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Indeed. Or you could install the battery on the AC side, then there is no need for a hybrid inverter (but you do need other additional hardware)

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  • #38
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unkel wrote: »
    You really have been away from it all for a good few months, haven't you? :p

    A PV subsidy was brought in during the summer that provides an extra €1,000 subsidy to have a battery installed (any size battery). The most common and well know Li-ion home storage battery of 2.4kWh costs just €980 + VAT

    Ergo, it costs very little extra to have a battery installed and the pay back time is only a few years. If you go for a subsidised PV install, you'd be mad not to include at least a small battery

    I have indeed be away for a while, this isn't me returning either , just wanted to throw my two cents on this topic.

    See the problem I have with storage as I've said many many times, is that you will struggle to full the battery in Winter and have many times too much in the brighter months, meaning a lot of energy will still have to be dumped.

    Unfortunately , with a small array you're going to have to install a very small battery because there's just no way a larger PV install is going to be suitable with a small battery and a larger battery is too expensive.

    But we have a large mobile battery under our asses most of the day, unfortunately this is not going to be home much to charge up during the day:D

    Without a F.I.T then solar PV becomes much less efficient and the pay back much longer. All the excess in the brighter months either has to go to the grid for free or much be dumped, a F.I.T would allow all the energy to be used , giving you money to buy it back from the grid when needed.

    a 4 kw/p system will deliver on average for Ireland https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/index.php

    2.76 Kwh /Day December
    4 kwh per day in January
    13.56 Kwh April
    16.43 Kwh July

    etc

    My average consumption with EV is 15.5 Kwh/day = house + driving 30,000 Kms/year including work charging.



    Roughly 3,596 kwh per year if you can use it all........

    yearly consumption should be around 5,500 Kwh total. Excluding heating of course. The problem is that solar production is low in the winter months.

    Ideally a hybrid setup of maybe 2 Kw Wind turbine + 3 kw/p solar pv. You'd be surprised on what you could generate with a wind turbine in Ireland throughout the year even in a not so good location. I'm probably not in a great location but I bet I could easily hit 2,000 kwh per year with a 2 kw turbine and the rest....

    The only issue with wind turbines is the extortionate cost of turbine + installation.

    I might give it a go sometime, run a heater or two off it and go from there, DIY and save a fortune. Small buffer batter installation to take care of the fluctuation in power or just go direct to the consumer unit via proper specification grid tie inverter and kill switch for when I don't want to give away free power.

    Get spark to connect it all up. hardest part would be digging trench for cables from the end of the garden but that's what the farmer next door is for :)

    It's not easy to balance the battery size V array size as you can see there is a very large variation in power delivered brighter v darker months.


  • #39
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,955 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    I just got this, I dont support this party or anything but would be worth people keeping an eye on this


    A chara,

    You contacted us previously in regard to environmental issues.

    We would like to update you in regard to the Sinn Féin Microgeneration Support Scheme Bill which will come before the Dáil this coming Tuesday 27th November.

    This bill aims to establish a feed-in tariff for electricity exported to the grid from small scale generation. We hope all parties can support the bill as we believe that small scale generation must form part of the wide portfolio of renewable energy sources we need going forward.

    If you would like to receive further contact from us and our environmental policies please let us know.

    Is mise le meas,

    Brian Stanley TD


  • #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sweet, we need a F.I.T badly it would pretty much eliminate the need for a battery and make Solar PV much more attractive.


  • #41
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,955 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sweet, we need a F.I.T badly it would pretty much eliminate the need for a battery and make Solar PV much more attractive.


    If it gets passed I will have 6 kW order within an hour :P


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  • #42
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Wait for the grant-style price increase from installers if it does pass and demand rockets.


  • #43
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,955 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Wait for the grant-style price increase from installers if it does pass and demand rockets.

    It has already happened

    Check the solar PV thread, quotes gone up 3k, standard price gouge of the grant


  • #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The more I think about it the more I think that's a good deal 4Kw/p Array + 7.2 Kwh battery for 5800 Euro's.

    Not a hope of filling that battery in the winter months so I would definitely look at a way of topping it up on the night rate.

    I'm just thinking that at that price I could keep an electric heater ticking over in the sitting room or Kitchen area during the day when I'm off shift which would greatly reduce oil consumption, mostly running off the night rate though , the cost of oil is not cheap and it cost us 840 for a fill recently and we'll most likely need another in February. The heating is not efficient, old skool, poor control and inefficient old radiators. So Probably the most sense would be to upgrade the heating but to do it right the floors would have to come up and that's not going to happen, TRV's are not very good or they are poor quality and don't last too long. Modern radiators and some form of electronic controls are needed.

    I'd love to rip out the heating altogether and use electric storage heaters if the cost of electricity was decent there'd be no need for us to use oil, gas or solid fuels........... but I'd need 3 phase.

    Blocking up the Chimney reduces heat loss and draughts "SUBSTANTUALLY" and if anyone here has not done that yet then get a chimney balloon in your local hardware and block that chimney and see the difference it makes.

    Think of the Chimney as a giant hoover , it sucks cold air in from every crack in the house, windows, doors, and cold areas of the house and it blows the warm air out and if you stand on the roof and put your hand over the chimney pots you will be shocked at the amount of heat escaping.

    It's a shame homes here don't have 3 phase.


  • #45
    randombar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭randombar


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The more I think about it the more I think that's a good deal 4Kw/p Array + 7.2 Kwh battery for 5800 Euro's.

    Not a hope of filling that battery in the winter months so I would definitely look at a way of topping it up on the night rate.

    I'm just thinking that at that price I could keep an electric heater ticking over in the sitting room or Kitchen area during the day when I'm off shift which would greatly reduce oil consumption, mostly running off the night rate though , the cost of oil is not cheap and it cost us 840 for a fill recently and we'll most likely need another in February. The heating is not efficient, old skool, poor control and inefficient old radiators. So Probably the most sense would be to upgrade the heating but to do it right the floors would have to come up and that's not going to happen, TRV's are not very good or they are poor quality and don't last too long. Modern radiators and some form of electronic controls are needed.

    I'd love to rip out the heating altogether and use electric storage heaters if the cost of electricity was decent there'd be no need for us to use oil, gas or solid fuels........... but I'd need 3 phase.

    Blocking up the Chimney reduces heat loss and draughts "SUBSTANTUALLY" and if anyone here has not done that yet then get a chimney balloon in your local hardware and block that chimney and see the difference it makes.

    Think of the Chimney as a giant hoover , it sucks cold air in from every crack in the house, windows, doors, and cold areas of the house and it blows the warm air out and if you stand on the roof and put your hand over the chimney pots you will be shocked at the amount of heat escaping.

    It's a shame homes here don't have 3 phase.

    Why would you need 3 phase for storage heaters? Or is that a stupid question?


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    GaryCocs wrote: »
    Why would you need 3 phase for storage heaters? Or is that a stupid question?

    You’d need 3 phase if the amount of kw consumed by all the heaters exceed the house supply, you can upgrade to I think 16 Kva single phase ? Which would help a lot but I don’t think in my case it would be enough with ev especially when I eventually change the home charge point to a 7 Kw instead of 3.5 kw.


  • #47
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So Probably the most sense would be to upgrade the heating but to do it right the floors would have to come up and that's not going to happen, TRV's are not very good or they are poor quality and don't last too long. Modern radiators and some form of electronic controls are needed.

    Dunno if you own your house, but we upgraded our gas fired boiler (from 66% efficient to 96% efficient) and zoned the house at the same time (up, down, water). It was grant aided, but was the best money we ever spent. Our cooker is also mains gas.

    In summer a two month bill averages €18... €9 for gas and €9 for the standing charge. That's all our hot water and most of our cooking for €9 for two months! (Microwave oven is still electric, unfortunately)


  • #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Dunno if you own your house, but we upgraded our gas fired boiler (from 66% efficient to 96% efficient) and zoned the house at the same time (up, down, water). It was grant aided, but was the best money we ever spent. Our cooker is also mains gas.

    In summer a two month bill averages €18... €9 for gas and €9 for the standing charge. That's all our hot water and most of our cooking for €9 for two months! (Microwave oven is still electric, unfortunately)

    Yes we own the house , it’s not very efficient , the boiler is a pretty modern condenser type but it’s 35 kw which the plumber said is far too big but it does warm up very quickly. Most of the rads are crap.

    It’s a bungalow in the sticks so no access to mains gas which isn’t too cheap and it wouldn’t really save us anything.

    But definitely, the heating needs upgrading. I’d love to heat with electricity but it would be too costly and storage heaters are big and expensive.

    Electric heaters are efficient and they have their own individual controls.


  • #49
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yes we own the house , it’s not very efficient , the boiler is a pretty modern condenser type but it’s 35 kw which the plumber said is far too big but it does warm up very quickly. Most of the rads are crap.

    It’s a bungalow in the sticks so no access to mains gas which isn’t too cheap and it wouldn’t really save us anything.

    But definitely, the heating needs upgrading. I’d love to heat with electricity but it would be too costly and storage heaters are big and expensive.

    Electric heaters are efficient and they have their own individual controls.

    Yeah, unless you've access to mains gas, gas is a waste of money. Calor etc worked out about 4 to 5 times more expensive than mains last time I looked.

    I'd strongly recommend you get it zoned though. Water, and if possible separate bedrooms and living spaces. Also, heat your water to the heat you actually need (around 40 degrees). You can heat to 65 degrees every couple of weeks to stave off Legionnaires' etc. No need every day.


  • #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What I don't like about mains gas is the rental.

    I don't think separate living and bedrooms zone would be too difficult, this just got a thought rattling in my brain....... there are two leavers with red handles that I don't know what they do near the floor in the hot press, it's just possible this could be some kind of manual controlled zone, I must check it out.

    I'd like a setup where once rooms and water are up to temp the boiler switches off rather based on the water temp in the rads on the room temp then when everything is up to temp the boiler shuts off rather than the current continuous on and off cycling regardless of what temp rooms are.


  • #51
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Deleted User wrote: »
    there are two leavers with red handles that I don't know what they do near the floor in the hot press, it's just possible this could be some kind of manual controlled zone, I must check it out.

    You'll have valves to control water from the tank in the attic coming down to the cold taps (kitchen excepted) and hot taps (via the hot water cylinder).


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