Buying an unused roof area in my apartment complex

Freddie2008 · 22-10-2019 04:46PM #1

Apologies for the title. Has anyone bought a roof garden in an apartment complex where they live or is this something that could be done.

Essentially I live in an apartment complex where there is an unused roof area. Its constantly locked as the surrounding walls are not of sufficient height where its felt if a child got out there they could climb over.

I'd like to see if it would be possible to buy this roof area and convert it to a garden. At the moment it's just concrete slabs. The way the apartments are built its only me and the apartment next door who are on the same floor as the garden. I'd imagine lots of people are barely aware of its existence. As there is no reason to come up our floor.

I know the management company would still or may still want access to the roof and that would be no problem. An agreement with access could be drawn up. I could/would also have a key in a box to break in terms of an emergency a fire or whatever with door keys enclosed.

I know the management company are going to ask all owners to agree to pay an amount on top of the regular management fees to carry out some essential maintenance to all the blocks very soon.

Right now it's a bit of an eye sore so a few apartments across the way who are the only ones who can actually see the roof area would possible benefit from a better view.

Sorry about the long post - Essentially it's an unused area since the development was built. The door to it has been locked for years. This door is on the floor I share with 1 other rented place. The management company need money soon for essential maintenance. My thinking possibley completely naively is that we all win. I get a garden with private access, apart from maintenance when/if needed and for emergencies and they get the lump sum or most of it needed for the essential work.

I know I would need to get the engineers report which was actually completed recently. We got this done as essentially a complete development check to see how the development was structurally and to see if we need to make any changes to comply with all new regulations. But I know this roof area is fine to walk on etc in term of load and the building structure.

I'd like to have my homework done prior to approaching the MC and leave them with as little work to do in terms of engineer reports, insurance, access and titles etc. Assuming that this is a runner at all.

All advice welcomed, especially from anyone who has bought a common area in a development.

BryanF · 22-10-2019 10:06PM

Planning required
Health & safety: parapets 1100mm/ballasted handrail
Roof condition: new membrane? warranty/insurance
Fire safety: how big is the roof? Is there an alternate means of escape?

I think you’ll be shot down for one or all of the above

Freddie2008 · 23-10-2019 02:11AM

BryanF wrote: »

Planning required
Health & safety: parapets 1100mm/ballasted handrail
Roof condition: new membrane? warranty/insurance
Fire safety: how big is the roof? Is there an alternate means of escape?

I think you’ll be shot down for one or all of the above

Thanks for your reply Bryan. Have you experience with such a project? If it's something you have professional expertise in, I'd be interested in discussing this with you, with a view to you taking a look as a job. Please PM me if this is the case.

There is a hand rail in place. Not sure if its regulation height. It was at build time. I'd like to put a border around the roof perimeter and this would be more the 1100mm in height.

The roof was open to owners/renters at one stage. But I think then some people with kids moved in and the door was locked.

By me creating a garden out of the space I wouldn't be changing the means of escape in terms of fire. The same locked door would remain in place in terms of fire safety for other residents. Is this what you mean? Then in terms of me using the space as a garden I'd have the same means of escape through the same door back to the landing/common area outside my apartment door.

This area is considered an external common area and is covered under the existing block insurance.

holliehobbie · 23-10-2019 02:18AM

If its a common area I would imagine all the other apartments would be entitled to use it?

Freddie2008 · 23-10-2019 11:57AM

holliehobbie wrote: »

If its a common area I would imagine all the other apartments would be entitled to use it?

No you are right they absolutely are entitled to use it now. At the moment though its locked for safety reasons. So no one has had the access to use it for years. For all the world it's a derelict site. We have a number of essential maintenance costs coming up in the development outside the our normal management charge. Right now the proposed budget cost for these is €70000.

My idea is to buy this unused site/roof area and convert it to a private garden area. The money I'd pay would go along way to covering the upcoming essential maintenance costs.

It's an area no is or can use right now. I cant see a situation where there will be money to spend on this area. I'd imagine this area will be left as is forever.

Not sure how relevant this is, but the complex is 80% rented out with very few residents. Going by the numbers at the AGM the last few years most owners dont seem to be to active in the development. Max attendance would 4 beside the 2 directors and the management agent.

Gumbo · 23-10-2019 01:19PM

Its most likely common area / Private open space provisions as per the planning permission.
The Mc are in breach of the Planning by not allowing residents access to it and you'd have to buy out every resident that has access to it if it would even be entertained by the planning department.

My guess, is that you wouldn't get planning and the MC wont agree to it.

BryanF · 23-10-2019 09:12PM

Freddie2008 wrote: »

Thanks for your reply Bryan. Have you experience with such a project? If it's something you have professional expertise in, I'd be interested in discussing this with you, with a view to you taking a look as a job. Please PM me if this is the case.

There is a hand rail in place. Not sure if its regulation height. It was at build time. I'd like to put a border around the roof perimeter and this would be more the 1100mm in height.

The roof was open to owners/renters at one stage. But I think then some people with kids moved in and the door was locked.

By me creating a garden out of the space I wouldn't be changing the means of escape in terms of fire. The same locked door would remain in place in terms of fire safety for other residents. Is this what you mean? Then in terms of me using the space as a garden I'd have the same means of escape through the same door back to the landing/common area outside my apartment door.

This area is considered an external common area and is covered under the existing block insurance.

Look for local arch /eng, get 3 quotes. Sound-out the management company at an early stage.

Freddie2008 · 24-10-2019 12:03PM

I will do that re the quotes from 3 different providers. Thanks. I suppose I was just wondering if anyone had done anything similar.

blackbox · 24-10-2019 12:55PM

I'm not clear why planning permission would be required, assuming it complied with regulations when built.

If the OP already owned the roof area - i.e. a large balcony, he would hardly have to get planning permission if he wanted to put some plants on it.

.

cruizer101 · 24-10-2019 01:02PM

I think planning may be required because it is meant to be a common area and this is changing it to a private area.
This would contravene the original planning which was to include a certain amount of common area.

Think of as if someone in an estate wanted to fence off some of the green beside their house as their own, its no longer common area as specified by original planning.

So the planning would probably have to be sought before it could ever be sold to OP.

Freddie2008 · 24-10-2019 06:14PM

If I was to think of it like an area in an estate, the analogy would be more, an area in an estate that's currently blocked off to all access due to safety concerns about the area. So presently no one has access to the area. There isnt money in the management company to do the work to the area to make it accessible.

My idea is get the safety work done, paid for by me and to also agree a price with the management company whereby they sell it to me. The money from the sale then goes into our sinking fund for example. Which right now as it happens has a balance of zero.

I'd "own" it in the same way I "own" my apartment or existing balcony( I'm already familiar with the, I dont own it but have use of it... I only own inside the walls and ceiling etc etc) so please no tangents with this.

Is a solicitor a good person to go to with this?

I've spoken with the engineer who has just recently surveyed and completed a detailed report for the complex for upcoming work needed etc. over the short term and longterm.

So I'm confident there's no issue with this becoming a garden area as soon as the safety issues and some other repairs have been carried out, detailed in the report. As I say I'm willing to pay for this plus other the other repairs that need to be done to the area that aren't safety related.

I'm trying to tie down my query here as much as possible, maybe that cannot be done.

Eire Go Brach · 24-10-2019 06:20PM

Just build it. 2 ****ers built garages in our car park.
At the time the management agent had no money to seek legal action.

Gumbo · 24-10-2019 07:57PM

blackbox wrote: »

I'm not clear why planning permission would be required, assuming it complied with regulations when built.

If the OP already owned the roof area - i.e. a large balcony, he would hardly have to get planning permission if he wanted to put some plants on it.

.

Because it’s a community roof garden. Access is avail be to all residents of the building. Part of the original planning compliance is the requirement to provide X amount of private open space to residents. This can be done in 2 ways, balconies and gardens surrounding the structure or if land is tight, balconies and roof garden space.

So planning would be required as you are removing an original planning requirement to rocked this.

BryanF · 25-10-2019 07:58AM

Eire Go Brach wrote: »

Just build it. 2 ****ers built garages in our car park.
At the time the management agent had no money to seek legal action.

Please don’t advocate breaking the law, have a read of the forum charter before posting again. Thanks

Dudda · 25-10-2019 08:21AM

I think it's unused roof space and doubt it was ever intended as common area. The reason for this is you mentioned the walls aren't high enough around the edge in the first post.

Only one way to make sure though. The first thing you need to do is check the original planning application and see if it's just a regular flat roof or its common area. All planning authorities allow you to search planning applications online. eg google 'south dublin planning search'. Then you'll have to find the original planning application. If it's a very old building they mightn't have scanned the drawings in which case they won't be online and you'll have to go into the planning office and ask to see the original drawings. Find the roof drawing and see if the area is labelled as roof space or common area.

Report back to use and we'll go from there.

blackbox · 25-10-2019 03:23PM

kceire wrote: »

Because it’s a community roof garden. Access is avail be to all residents of the building. Part of the original planning compliance is the requirement to provide X amount of private open space to residents. This can be done in 2 ways, balconies and gardens surrounding the structure or if land is tight, balconies and roof garden space.

So planning would be required as you are removing an original planning requirement to rocked this.

I get this. I thought the implication was that pp was required for the plants. Thanks.

Freddie2008 · 01-11-2019 02:01PM

Dudda wrote: »

I think it's unused roof space and doubt it was ever intended as common area. The reason for this is you mentioned the walls aren't high enough around the edge in the first post.

Only one way to make sure though. The first thing you need to do is check the original planning application and see if it's just a regular flat roof or its common area. All planning authorities allow you to search planning applications online. eg google 'south dublin planning search'. Then you'll have to find the original planning application. If it's a very old building they mightn't have scanned the drawings in which case they won't be online and you'll have to go into the planning office and ask to see the original drawings. Find the roof drawing and see if the area is labelled as roof space or common area.

Report back to use and we'll go from there.

I've checked into this as per your advice. The area is labelled as a common area.

My thoughts were just that it hadn't been used for years as it no longer met the safety standards required, in terms of the low wall surrounding it etc. So it's been locked off from everyone, we/me/they never had use of it anyway. There are 2 such areas in the development. If I was to buy this one for my own private use as a garden this would pay for the upcoming surcharge we will all need to pay for work coming up on the development.

But I think you are saying I'd just need to see if I could in fact get permission first as this would be taking from common area size outlined in the buildings initial plan. The fact it's not being used is another issue? Would this be about right.

Caranica · 01-11-2019 02:13PM

A common area cannot be assigned for the benefit of a single unit in our development. We had a proposal from an owner, I'm a director of our management company. We got legal advice and it was a firm no. The management company has a duty to maintain common areas and cannot reduce the amount of common property as approved in the grant of planning permission.

Freddie2008 · 01-11-2019 02:23PM

Caranica wrote: »

A common area cannot be assigned for the benefit of a single unit in our development. We had a proposal from an owner, I'm a director of our management company. We got legal advice and it was a firm no. The management company has a duty to maintain common areas and cannot reduce the amount of common property as approved in the grant of planning permission.

Ok thanks for the quick reply.

I wouldn't even have a question here but for the fact that the area is barricaded off for the last 7 or 8 years and no one has use of it.

Unless we agree all agree to pay the significant cost for the upgrade works required, it will continue to be barricaded off to prevent use.

Currently our management company has no sinking fund in place. So my thinking was it would be beneficial all round. But it looks like it's not that simple.

Dudda · 01-11-2019 02:44PM

Freddie2008 wrote: »

I've checked into this as per your advice. The area is labelled as a common area.

My thoughts were just that it hadn't been used for years as it no longer met the safety standards required, in terms of the low wall surrounding it etc. So it's been locked off from everyone, we/me/they never had use of it anyway. There are 2 such areas in the development. If I was to buy this one for my own private use as a garden this would pay for the upcoming surcharge we will all need to pay for work coming up on the development.

But I think you are saying I'd just need to see if I could in fact get permission first as this would be taking from common area size outlined in the buildings initial plan. The fact it's not being used is another issue? Would this be about right.

Thanks for digging out the planning drawings and checking. That was important. If it was a regular roof space then you’d have a chance of getting it. The fact that it’s labelled common area I think will make it far more difficult. Forgetting for a minute the management company and other owners opinion as enough money could potentially convince them. Planners would be very reluctant to allow common space to be assigned to a single user no matter what state it’s in. You’ve always the chance the management company will get money or even a future grant of some type might become available to reinstate the area as unlikely as it may be. In time legislation may force them to increase the service charge to ensure common areas are maintained. It might not even be much money to reinstate it but if the management company reinstate it then it's another area to clean and maintain which is probably why they're not pushing it.
The planners would probably prefer to have it sit unused as common area than given to one user. If you can’t get planning permission then the management companies hands are tied and they legally won't be able to give it to you no matter how much money you offer.

Out of curiosity did the planning application come with any conditions to the management of the building or common areas? Was any information submitted as part of the application? I know with student housing they have to have detailed management plans for maintaining and controlling noise and parties to get planning permission but haven’t worked on an inner city apartments in awhile.

Freddie2008 · 01-11-2019 06:14PM

Dudda wrote: »

Thanks for digging out the planning drawings and checking. That was important. If it was a regular roof space then you’d have a chance of getting it. The fact that it’s labelled common area I think will make it far more difficult. Forgetting for a minute the management company and other owners opinion as enough money could potentially convince them. Planners would be very reluctant to allow common space to be assigned to a single user no matter what state it’s in. You’ve always the chance the management company will get money or even a future grant of some type might become available to reinstate the area as unlikely as it may be. In time legislation may force them to increase the service charge to ensure common areas are maintained. It might not even be much money to reinstate it but if the management company reinstate it then it's another area to clean and maintain which is probably why they're not pushing it.
The planners would probably prefer to have it sit unused as common area than given to one user. If you can’t get planning permission then the management companies hands are tied and they legally won't be able to give it to you no matter how much money you offer.

Out of curiosity did the planning application come with any conditions to the management of the building or common areas? Was any information submitted as part of the application? I know with student housing they have to have detailed management plans for maintaining and controlling noise and parties to get planning permission but haven’t worked on an inner city apartments in awhile.

Ok I'll enquire about the planning so, before approaching the MC. I'm a lot more downbeat now in terms of my city garden happening though

No the only conditions with planning was for adequate parking spaces. It didn't mention anything about the management of the complex internally or externally.

It would be good to have some "operational conditions" solidly in place. Regardless of who was managing the development then, there would be a set of base rules that had to be followed.

Buying an unused roof area in my apartment complex

Comments