Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Uriel. · 05-12-2019 07:47AM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Odd that risk doesn't seem to affect road building.

I'm not sure on how road capital expenditure compares with 5, 10 years ago etc. FG got heavily criticised about its the messaging around the last election "keep the recovery going" with the ire particularly strong in rural Ireland and non-Dublin. Roads and broadband amongst other things are aimed at this constituency

LeinsterDub · 05-12-2019 09:09AM

Uriel. wrote: »

I'm not sure on how road capital expenditure compares with 5, 10 years ago etc. FG got heavily criticised about its the messaging around the last election "keep the recovery going" with the ire particularly strong in rural Ireland and non-Dublin. Roads and broadband amongst other things are aimed at this constituency

3/4 of a billion committed to new roads in the last month. 1 million eCars is apparently our climate change strategy. Roads are still being used to buy votes as you suggested

cgcsb · 05-12-2019 09:10AM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The European investment bank are literally begging us to borrow. Which is not to mention the actual billions being spend on roads and road conditions every year

Governments like roads though they can be built quick and they can be spread across constituencies and get lots of votes for relatively cheap. A FG govt won't want any more debts were already up to our hoop in loans.

cgcsb · 05-12-2019 09:20AM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

3/4 of a billion committed to new roads in the last month. 1 million eCars is apparently our climate change strategy. Roads are still being used to buy votes as you suggested

Goes to show how hopeless our transport strategies are. Cmats and the Dublin transport plans aim to maintain or even increase car usage, with the emphasis being on more electric cars. This ignores the fact that an electric car is a one tonne box full of precious metals that is used to move a single person around in an extremely energy inefficient manner and then remain stationary for 23hours a day.

Pete_Cavan · 05-12-2019 01:05PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

3/4 of a billion committed to new roads in the last month. 1 million eCars is apparently our climate change strategy. Roads are still being used to buy votes as you suggested

This is the same nonsense that the Greens are constantly engaging in, applying a particular logic to a situationwhere it is not applicable at all. Look at where those new roads are located. It's not like they are roads which are going to pile more commuters onto Dublin's already gridlockeed roads instead of providing a public transport alternative. Any public transport is those areas will be road based and the existing roads are totally substandard, the new roads are justified. It is also irrelevant to Metrolink.

Wasn't there recently warnings given to keeping this thread about Metrolink and not dragging every other bit of government spending into it?

LeinsterDub · 06-12-2019 04:09PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

This is the same nonsense that the Greens are constantly engaging in, applying a particular logic to a situationwhere it is not applicable at all. Look at where those new roads are located. It's not like they are roads which are going to pile more commuters onto Dublin's already gridlockeed roads instead of providing a public transport alternative. Any public transport is those areas will be road based and the existing roads are totally substandard, the new roads are justified. It is also irrelevant to Metrolink.

Wasn't there recently warnings given to keeping this thread about Metrolink and not dragging every other bit of government spending into it?

It's not irrelevant as we don't have a magic money tree.

Sam Russell · 06-12-2019 04:20PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's not irrelevant as we don't have a magic money tree.

Well, there is a magic money tree, if the Gov wanted to shake it.

1. There are billions of Euro on deposit from Irish residents with the Irish banks earning than 0.01% interest, subject to 33% deposit interest tax. Now what would it take for that to be put to some use?

2. The European Development Bank have huge funds available for projects like Metrolink at very low interest.

3. The Gov could issue an investment bond (State Guaranteed) to fund the Mertolink with suitable tax advantages. (Perhaps add a share of the fare box).

4. Use the CAB money, instead of feeding it directly into general tax. (Of course there is not that much in that, but I would love to see the odd carriage with a plaque saying 'Funded by Crime')

All of these could fund the Metrolink, either partly, individually or collectively..

marno21 · 06-12-2019 05:18PM

^^

Or put unexpected corporation tax windfalls into an infrastructure fund, instead of their current use of being used for unsustainable HSE cost overruns.

Lord Glentoran · 07-12-2019 09:41PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's not irrelevant as we don't have a magic money tree.

We have as far as roads are concerned.

cson · 08-12-2019 01:03AM

Some thoughts;

We need to create incentives that reduce single occupancy cars from the M50, and high congestion roads in general. An easy start would be having specific car pooling lanes on the M50. Variable tolling is the next step after that.

Before that happens though, you need a credible public transport alternative, which is where Metrolink et al come in.

The biggest issue is housing density though; so long as we continue to build outwards rather than upwards the car will remain king.

salmocab · 08-12-2019 02:22AM

cson wrote: »

Some thoughts;

We need to create incentives that reduce single occupancy cars from the M50, and high congestion roads in general. An easy start would be having specific car pooling lanes on the M50. Variable tolling is the next step after that.

Before that happens though, you need a credible public transport alternative, which is where Metrolink et al come in.

The biggest issue is housing density though; so long as we continue to build outwards rather than upwards the car will remain king.

Variable tolls drives people off the m50 onto rat running estates. We need to be careful of unintended consequences.

Pete_Cavan · 08-12-2019 09:04AM

salmocab wrote: »

Variable tolls drives people off the m50 onto rat running estates. We need to be careful of unintended consequences.

Rat running generally isn't an option unless going a junction or two and even then it usually isn't through estates. We should be discouraging short journeys on the M50 of a junction or two anyway.

salmocab · 08-12-2019 09:19AM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Rat running generally isn't an option unless going a junction or two and even then it usually isn't through estates. We should be discouraging short journeys on the M50 of a junction or two anyway.

We should but unless there are alternatives it will push cars onto other already jammed local roads. Knocklyon to tallaght or ballymount would be prime for jamming up other already busy roads. Until we get PT sorted the m50 is going to stay as it is.

Pete_Cavan · 08-12-2019 10:03AM

salmocab wrote: »

We should but unless there are alternatives it will push cars onto other already jammed local roads. Knocklyon to tallaght or ballymount would be prime for jamming up other already busy roads. Until we get PT sorted the m50 is going to stay as it is.

I don't see that as a reason for not introducing more toll points. Most will continue to use the M50 and pay a very small amount per journey, the fact they use it now shows they prefer it to the alternative and if any additional cars choose the alternative route, it becomes less attractive not more. Keep the additional toll money to fund infrastructure improvements for public transport alternatives.

cgcsb · 08-12-2019 12:53PM

Well at the minute there is no public transport alternative so it's premature to use punishing tolls.

Lord Glentoran · 09-12-2019 11:39PM

cgcsb wrote: »

Well at the minute there is no public transport alternative so it's premature to use punishing tolls.

I recall a conversation in the early nineties with someone who lived off Leeson Street and drove to work in Christchurch. “Well”, she said, “It’s all very well for London to have a proposed congestion charge, it can’t happen here until public transport is improved”

So, nearly thirty years later, if not now, when?

Charge drivers and be damned.

Use the money to fund improvements such as Metro, more Luas lines, and the long fingered M3 Parkway to Navan line.

Simple. Enough messing about.

Sam Russell · 10-12-2019 10:00AM

marno21 wrote: »

^^

Or put unexpected corporation tax windfalls into an infrastructure fund, instead of their current use of being used for unsustainable HSE cost overruns.

Actually, I could never understand why the 'Apple €13 billion' was not turned into a Gov Bond carrying no or low interest, repayable on the final decision, and used for infrastructure, and in particular, Metrolink. Currently, huge professional fees were paid out to set up an escrow account and the fund is now subject to negative interest charges.

We could build three Metrolink lines with that money.

cgcsb · 10-12-2019 10:13AM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

I recall a conversation in the early nineties with someone who lived off Leeson Street and drove to work in Christchurch. “Well”, she said, “It’s all very well for London to have a proposed congestion charge, it can’t happen here until public transport is improved”

So, nearly thirty years later, if not now, when?

Charge drivers and be damned.

Use the money to fund improvements such as Metro, more Luas lines, and the long fingered M3 Parkway to Navan line.

Simple. Enough messing about.

A bit of a clumsy comparison. The person you mentioned would walk it faster than driving and cycle it more than 3 times quicker.

A person living in Tallaght and working in Blanch cannot walk or cycle and there's not much of a bus sevice.

By the way that person who drives to Christchurch from lesson st needs a slap

magicbastarder · 10-12-2019 10:29AM

you'd probably also find that anyone living inside the congestion zone would be given a waiver for the congestion charge anyway. so reduced traffic might make them *more* likely to drive.

ncounties · 10-12-2019 10:46AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

you'd probably also find that anyone living inside the congestion zone would be given a waiver for the congestion charge anyway. so reduced traffic might make them *more* likely to drive.

This is a maybe, this is not based in fact or what has been seen in other countries operating congestion charging, and this isn't a thread about congestion charging.

cgcsb · 10-12-2019 11:07AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

you'd probably also find that anyone living inside the congestion zone would be given a waiver for the congestion charge anyway. so reduced traffic might make them *more* likely to drive.

Car ownership within the canals is pretty low.

Marcusm · 10-12-2019 05:29PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Actually, I could never understand why the 'Apple €13 billion' was not turned into a Gov Bond carrying no or low interest, repayable on the final decision, and used for infrastructure, and in particular, Metrolink. Currently, huge professional fees were paid out to set up an escrow account and the fund is now subject to negative interest charges.

We could build three Metrolink lines with that money.

Because Apple’s treasurer is not moronic enough to take that much uncovered currency risk on € and credit risk on Ireland on an uncertain time horizon.

CatInABox · 11-12-2019 11:15AM

Checked the Gadra website there, they're still as hilarious as ever. Seems the NTA are getting tired of their **** too, judging by some of the responses to questions put to them.

Query 7: It would appear that NTA have not afforded all residents equal opportunity to participate in this process to date and could NTA explain the reason for this.
Response 7: This allegation is simply incorrect.

Hilariously, Gadra want the entire project put back into public consultation over the intervention shaft at Albert College Park, as if people in Swords would give two ****s about a shaft there.

Anyway, the one bit of interesting news is that the next consultation will start on the 24th January, and will run for four weeks. My guess is that if Gadra weren't incessantly banging the drum over this shaft, then there'd be no need for another consultation. The NTA are just going the extra mile to make sure that every aspect of this has been consulted on.

magicbastarder · 11-12-2019 11:26AM

i get letters about that too, i will be able to see one of the stations from my bedroom window. the local resident's association has been involved in consultation, and would claim to represent the neighbourhood, but i know many people would have a JFDI attitude to it but don't want to clash with the neighbours on the association.

AlmightyCushion · 11-12-2019 11:27AM

CatInABox wrote: »

Checked the Gadra website there, they're still as hilarious as ever. Seems the NTA are getting tired of their **** too, judging by some of the responses to questions put to them.

Hilariously, Gadra want the entire project put back into public consultation over the intervention shaft at Albert College Park, as if people in Swords would give two ****s about a shaft there.

Anyway, the one bit of interesting news is that the next consultation will start on the 24th January, and will run for four weeks. My guess is that if Gadra weren't incessantly banging the drum over this shaft, then there'd be no need for another consultation. The NTA are just going the extra mile to make sure that every aspect of this has been consulted on.

I assume Gadra meant that the NTA should be going around and knocking on everyone's door who is in the areas where this line will go through which is just a load of nonsense.

We shouldn't be entertaining this crap at all. If someone has some proper, reasonably well, though out feedback, let's hear them out and respond to their feedback. Otherwise, they should be told to feck off, in a polite manner of course.

They want the whole consultation reopened for a shaft? Feck off.

magicbastarder · 11-12-2019 11:36AM

my understanding is that the RA where i am want the whole station planned for the church on ballymun road, moved south to the park. so it would be hard for them to make a fuss about the shaft.

AlmightyCushion · 11-12-2019 11:39AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

my understanding is that the RA where i am want the whole station planned for the church on ballymun road, moved south to the park. so it would be hard for them to make a fuss about the shaft.

GADRA even asked in the consultation about having a station there instead of a shaft.

CatInABox · 11-12-2019 11:46AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

my understanding is that the RA where i am want the whole station planned for the church on ballymun road, moved south to the park. so it would be hard for them to make a fuss about the shaft.

Then they'd need a shaft between Ballymun Station and there, plus having the station in the park would move it away from Glasnevin Ave/Collins Ave, which is a major orbital road under BusConnects.

MJohnston · 11-12-2019 10:42PM

Another thread ruined...another thread unfollowed.

marno21 · 11-12-2019 10:45PM

MOD:

Can we keep to Metrolink here please.

I would welcome a thread on general infrastructure spending if someone would like to create one

marno21 · 12-12-2019 06:25PM

Article about Metrolink in yesterday's Indo - 80 boreholes complete with 40 to go.

The rest is the usual background guff.

magicbastarder · 12-12-2019 07:12PM

actually, does anyone have any links to maps of what the geology is like along the route?
i'm going to be staring at a building site for a few years, will be interesting to know what the depth of soil and what sort of bedrock there is along here.

Elmer Blooker · 13-12-2019 11:22AM

magicbastarder wrote: »

actually, does anyone have any links to maps of what the geology is like along the route?
i'm going to be staring at a building site for a few years, will be interesting to know what the depth of soil and what sort of bedrock there is along here.

I think the Dublin Port tunnel proves that the geology will not be a problem.
Two very large bores were dug under residential areas such as Marino and there was no problem despite the doom predicted, no one even noticed while the work was going on.
It should be pointed out that a rail tunnel is a much smaller than a tunnel that has two lanes for large HGVs so I really don't understand the attitude that a metro for Dublin can't be done. It is a much smaller engineering project than two road tunnels with four lanes for HGVs.

CatInABox · 13-12-2019 11:25AM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I think the Dublin Port tunnel proves that the geology will not be a problem.
Two very large bores were dug under residential areas such as Marino and there was no problem despite the doom predicted, no one even noticed while the work was going on.
It should be pointed out that a rail tunnel is a much smaller than a tunnel that has two lanes for large HGVs so I really don't understand the attitude that a metro for Dublin can't be done. It is a much smaller engineering project than two road tunnels with four lanes for HGVs.

In fairness, there was tens of thousands paid out in damages caused by the Port Tunnel. Not a huge amount at all, but it definitely caused some damage.

magicbastarder · 13-12-2019 11:39AM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I think the Dublin Port tunnel proves that the geology will not be a problem.

i'm not saying the geology will be a problem. i'm curious as to what the geology is.

Equium · 13-12-2019 11:43AM

The Geological Survey of Ireland hosts ArcGIS map resources. You can use these to get an idea of the underlying geological conditions at any point nationwide, as well as geotechnical data from existing boreholes.

Elmer Blooker · 13-12-2019 01:18PM

CatInABox wrote: »

In fairness, there was tens of thousands paid out in damages caused by the Port Tunnel. Not a huge amount at all, but it definitely caused some damage.

I have a relative in Marino and they received a few grand as part of a CPO because of some grey area in Irish law where the home owner also owned the land under their property right to the centre of the earth. I'm not making this up. I am not aware of any damage to property as said relative didn't even notice as the boring went on under their property, not even the slightest vibration!

madbeanman · 05-01-2020 04:04PM

We can see that the Government is announcing plans and schemes by the dozen in the past couple of days (money for border counties, the event centre, vaccine programme, reforms of the Irish language education system, money for the Trinners hub on the Docks, the first professorships on gender quota scheme etc. etc.). Leo also made a video about the next year and mentioned Dart and Luas as sources for investment but not a peep about the Metro. You think he'd push it more when he is on this pre-election mission to promise the son moon and stars. It made me a bit nervous tbh.

MJohnston · 05-01-2020 04:35PM

Mods - would there be any chance we could create a Metrolink news thread and keep this one for discussion? Kinda like they do on the weather forum for certain things. We’re hopefully getting to the stage where more news will be incoming!

cgcsb · 05-01-2020 04:40PM

I have no doubt we'll get some form of bus connects, perhaps watered down. There'll be a fudged dart expansion, hybrid trains and a few closed level crossings and shure it'll be grand. Those things can be done in stages and easily abandoned at the end of any particular stage.

Metro hasn't a hope once construction starts it's all or nothing, no backing out. No government will commit to that expenditure over that time frame.

prunudo · 05-01-2020 05:04PM

cgcsb wrote: »

I have no doubt we'll get some form of bus connects, perhaps watered down. There'll be a fudged dart expansion, hybrid trains and a few closed level crossings and shure it'll be grand. Those things can be done in stages and easily abandoned at the end of any particular stage.

Metro hasn't a hope once construction starts it's all or nothing, no backing out. No government will commit to that expenditure over that time frame.

Hopefully you're wrong but like madbeanman I'm nervous. Its long over due and needs to be done but its a case of I won't believe till I see it.

Pete_Cavan · 05-01-2020 09:51PM

Can these "it's not going to happen" posts be banned? They add absolutely nothing to the discussion and if anything sidetrack the thread and send it off on tangents.

CrabRevolution · 05-01-2020 10:20PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Can these "it's not going to happen" posts be banned? They add absolutely nothing to the discussion and if anything sidetrack the thread and send it off on tangents.

I agree.While it's a perfectly valid opinion to have (even I'd be surprised if Metrolink gets built) it really adds nothing to the conversation. We should be discussing it on the basis that it will be built. If something comes up leading to its total cancellation we can talk about that then.

Peregrine · 06-01-2020 06:18AM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Can these "it's not going to happen" posts be banned? They add absolutely nothing to the discussion and if anything sidetrack the thread and send it off on tangents.

And, once that talk spreads, it won't happen.

It's disappointing that people that want it to happen spend time telling people how it won't happen. Who is left to demand that it happens? You're a politician's dream and part of the problem.

Sam Russell · 06-01-2020 11:44AM

Mod: Can we keep the 'It' not going to happen' elsewhere. This thread is for discussing the project, not trying to put the hex on it. Such posts will be deleted.

marno21 · 07-01-2020 08:26PM

New Ireland 2040 documents published today reaffirm commitments to start MetroLink in 2021 with a 2027 opening. This is pending a successful planning application. Many of the original pie in the sky road project timelines have been revised (the M20 had a start date of 2021 with 2024 completion which has been revised to 2025 start with tbc completion)

MrAbyss · 08-01-2020 01:33PM

marno21 wrote: »

New Ireland 2040 documents published today reaffirm commitments to start MetroLink in 2021 with a 2027 opening. This is pending a successful planning application. Many of the original pie in the sky road project timelines have been revised (the M20 had a start date of 2021 with 2024 completion which has been revised to 2025 start with tbc completion)

Have I landed in another dimension!

Sam Russell · 08-01-2020 01:43PM

MrAbyss wrote: »

Have I landed in another dimension!

No, but there is an election in the offing. Dublin needs Metrolink now, and FFG needs votes in Dublin.

Idbatterim · 08-01-2020 01:52PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

No, but there is an election in the offing. Dublin needs Metrolink now, and FFG needs votes in Dublin.

down the bottom of the list when it comes to things they deem vote winners!

The Satanist · 13-01-2020 09:35PM

marno21 wrote: »

Article about Metrolink in yesterday's Indo - 80 boreholes complete with 40 to go.

The rest is the usual background guff.

I'd love if there was a weekly or fortnightly official news update on Metrolink. It *seems* painfully slow, if we could see what's happening week to week, it would at least feel like something is getting done.

Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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