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France's Macron issues 'Republican values' ultimatum to Muslim leaders

2

Comments

  • #52
    TomTomTim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    francois wrote: »
    twaddle

    What a persuasive counter argument

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • #53
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,054 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Infini wrote: »
    Saudi Fùcking 'Rabia. Alot of that crap came out of there in one form or another over the last few decades.

    Islam was a bastion of learning from the time it conquered Alexandria to around the fall of Constantinople.

    Lots of knowledge and learing introduced.

    In the 12th century though a movement to return the Islamic world to true Islam started growing and that ended that.
    So the Islamic world was once a bastion of learning but for 7 centuries it uas not been. As things currently stand it is going backwards even on that.


  • #54
    Mr. Karate
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭Mr. Karate


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Have to admire Macron for trying to tackle this problem but I fear its too late at this stage, this should be a warning for other EU member states as to what can happen if this toxic religion takes hold in their country.

    The Poles and Hungarians are right to keep it out.

    When he starts demolishing Mosques stripping Muslims of citizenship and mass deportations I'll give him credit. Until then its his usual lip service.


  • #55
    Mr. Karate
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭Mr. Karate


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think a lot of people here are too fatalistic about where European nations have become. We're not the US. We don't have the inbred notions that incapacitate them from implementing proper change, and most of the retarded notions that are screwing with European nations, have been imported from abroad. They're not native ideas... and as such, can be discarded in time.

    I think western society has started to recognise that the various movements (feminism, civil rights etc) were all necessary steps but there is a serous danger to society in allowing them to continue past their true usefulness... and as that awareness comes (like the growing aversion to woke or PC culture), we'll see a shedding of the white guilt, the need to virtue signal, etc.

    So, no, I don't agree. I think European/western society is going through a tough painful period of re-establishing it's values and sense of direction (during which it's particularly weak to external influences)... and once that happens, along with a more unifying sense of nationalism (for Europeans), we'll see harder stances on foreign cultures which are a threat. It's not going to happen in the short term, but steps like Macron is doing are necessary to set up the foundation.. a foundation that's not based on Nazism, or some flawed supremacy/extremist ideology.

    Bull****. If European Govts had the will and the courage they would have stopped this back in 2016 after the New Year's Eve rape and sexual assaults in Malmo and other parts of Europe. Instead Merkel and the EU have doubled down on mass importing them and demanding that we take them in. The media have gone to great lengths to protect them and appease them. They can commit rape or murder and get a slap on the wrist [not even get charged in certain instances, but if we criticize this we get charges and prison time.

    Yeah, Europeans are ready to stop this ****. :rolleyes: More like bending over and continue taking it.


  • #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mr. Karate wrote: »
    Bull****.

    You're not exactly garnering respect when you react in this kind of manner. Try rubbish, instead. :D
    If European Govts had the will and the courage they would have stopped this back in 2016 after the New Year's Eve rape and sexual assaults in Malmo and other parts of Europe. Instead Merkel and the EU have doubled down on mass importing them and demanding that we take them in. The media have gone to great lengths to protect them and appease them. They can commit rape or murder and get a slap on the wrist [not even get charged in certain instances, but if we criticize this we get charges and prison time.

    It seems you want to take these issues and place them in a vacuum, ignoring the range of social changes that swept Europe over the last three decades, from the attempts to embrace PC culture through to the virtue signalling exercises that many countries engaged in.

    There weren't the conditions required to make sweeping changes to the "perceived" benefits or superiority of the western way of living. ie. freedom for all. There was too much hypocrisy and superficial thinking going on with any real introspection to acknowledge the weaknesses within our wonderful system. People didn't want, and many still don't, want to face up to the weaknesses that make us a soft target for migrants, con artists, and extremists.

    However, we're starting/beginning to turn a corner with this. Both online and offline, populations are starting to question the benefits of such behavior, and what the cost for doing so entails. The boom times for economies has passed by, and people are realizing just how expensive all this posturing has become.
    Yeah, Europeans are ready to stop this ****. :rolleyes: More like bending over and continue taking it.

    Ahh well, oddly enough, we're able to have different opinions. I don't see it changing immediately, nor for a few years, but the seeds have been sown.. and I'd say within a decade, we'll see serious movement towards tightening European nations against this kind of rubbish.


  • #57
    46 Long
    Closed Accounts Posts: 355 ✭✭46 Long


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think part of problem is france introducing laws targeting muslims..

    that banning hi-jab,while i can understand the logic behind it,is surely bound to have also bred resentment among muslims??


    This resentment is then used to feed the extremist rethoric,a government coming in from high and demanding.x,y and z,seems a sure-fire way to harden views on all sides?



    (That being said,im sure your average french muslim is sick sh1t of being associated with nutters within islam,and just wants to live their life)

    "The Muslims are only beheading teachers in the street because we're mean with them"


  • #58
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,867 ✭✭✭✭briany


    46 Long wrote: »
    "The Muslims are only beheading teachers in the street because we're mean with them"

    We can all agree that the kind of maniac who wants to behead someone in the street for words said should feel the full brunt of the law and condemnation from all sides.

    But I'm always seeing the sneaky, pernicious rhetoric of the far-right. Use Islamist extremists to generate a fear and hatred of all Muslims, regardless of whether those people aren't of any extreme opinion and basically want to get on with their lives in peace.

    And this is exactly what the Nazis did with the Jews. Generate a hatred and mistrust of Jews based on the idea of them all being shylock moneylenders and bankers who are destabilising Europe. Even, somehow, the ones in Warsaw ghettos without a penny to their name. The Nazis originally just wanted the Jews out of Europe, or at least their dominion. That proved a bit difficult as these people were citizens of Poland or Germany or the Netherlands etc., so we know what final solution the Nazis came to. On the current trajectory, I can only envision things going a similar way for the Muslim populations of Europe, especially where they're 2 or 3 generations deep in a given country and can't simply be deported.

    But I can't and never condone the killing of innocents, either by Muslim extremists, or by far-right elements using fear of the other based on the actions of a tiny minority to fuel their own sleazy, slimy rise to power.


  • #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    briany wrote: »
    But I can't and never condone the killing of innocents, either by Muslim extremists, or by far-right elements using fear of the other based on the actions of a tiny minority to fuel their own sleazy, slimy rise to power.

    Whereas, I see people who just can't allow the far right to fade into nothingness, needing to draw parallels with them all the time. The far right is the boogeyman. It's a shame they represent such remarkably small numbers considering the amount of airtime they receive from people complaining about them. Which is why, I guess, there's this need to push people who express unfavorable criticisms into the camp of the far right, because then, they'll feel justified in their fears of the far right.

    A lot of the support that the genuine far right has received in recent years has come from people being pushed there because they're not allowed to express their opinions without being labelled, and once labelled, shut down from participating.
    But I'm always seeing the sneaky, pernicious rhetoric of the far-right. Use Islamist extremists to generate a fear and hatred of all Muslims, regardless of whether those people aren't of any extreme opinion and basically want to get on with their lives in peace.

    Making a broad generalisation about the behavior of Muslims on a discussion board discussing said topic, isn't an appropriate example of being far right. People generalise when discussing topics. It's completely natural, and shouldn't need a disclaimer. The gas thing is when posters say all muslims are <insert positive> there's no outcry. Wonder why that is?

    The genuine far right are extremely obvious in their rhetoric, and most people would avoid them like the plague... because they're retards. However, now, that we've got this need to push/assign posters or opinions into being far right, I guess the lines have blurred since even conservatives can be considered far right depending on who's handling the "label gun".

    So, the question is... why do you feel the need to make the association of that posters contribution with the far right? It certainly wasn't my thought on reading it.


  • #60
    46 Long
    Closed Accounts Posts: 355 ✭✭46 Long


    briany wrote: »

    And this is exactly what the Nazis did with the Jews. Generate a hatred and mistrust of Jews based on the idea of them all being shylock moneylenders and bankers who are destabilising Europe. Even, somehow, the ones in Warsaw ghettos without a penny to their name. The Nazis originally just wanted the Jews out of Europe, or at least their dominion. That proved a bit difficult as these people were citizens of Poland or Germany or the Netherlands etc., so we know what final solution the Nazis came to. On the current trajectory, I can only envision things going a similar way for the Muslim populations of Europe, especially where they're 2 or 3 generations deep in a given country and can't simply be deported.

    Do you genuinely think that in Europe, in 2020 - asking Muslims to accept European values starts us on a trajectory that ends in the mass-murder of 6 millions Muslims in concentration camps?


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  • #61
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,998 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So, the question is... why do you feel the need to make the association of that posters contribution with the far right? It certainly wasn't my thought on reading it.

    Ironically enough, he's using fear of the other.


  • #62
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,867 ✭✭✭✭briany


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Whereas, I see people who just can't allow the far right to fade into nothingness, needing to draw parallels with them all the time. The far right is the boogeyman. It's a shame they represent such remarkably small numbers considering the amount of airtime they receive from people complaining about them. Which is why, I guess, there's this need to push people who express unfavorable criticisms into the camp of the far right, because then, they'll feel justified in their fears of the far right.

    A lot of the support that the genuine far right has received in recent years has come from people being pushed there because they're not allowed to express their opinions without being labelled, and once labelled, shut down from participating.



    Making a broad generalisation about the behavior of Muslims on a discussion board discussing said topic, isn't an appropriate example of being far right. People generalise when discussing topics. It's completely natural, and shouldn't need a disclaimer. The gas thing is when posters say all muslims are <insert positive> there's no outcry. Wonder why that is?

    The genuine far right are extremely obvious in their rhetoric, and most people would avoid them like the plague... because they're retards. However, now, that we've got this need to push/assign posters or opinions into being far right, I guess the lines have blurred since even conservatives can be considered far right depending on who's handling the "label gun".

    So, the question is... why do you feel the need to make the association of that posters contribution with the far right? It certainly wasn't my thought on reading it.

    I objected to that posters remark for failing to, or choosing not to, delineate between someone who is simply a Muslim and someone who's an Islamic extremist. We can't generalise on that because in this case it could lead to the unnecessary vilification of innocent people.

    It's unfortunate to have to invoke Godwinn's law, but the historical parallels are too big to ignore. Far right rhetoric and populist rhetoric thrives on crass generalisation, and the antidote to it is nuance. Any group is made of individuals, including Muslims, and moderate/liberal/irreligious ones shouldn't have to face vilification due to the actions of individuals with whom they are associated in the eyes of others.


  • #63
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,867 ✭✭✭✭briany


    46 Long wrote: »
    Do you genuinely think that in Europe, in 2020 - asking Muslims to accept European values starts us on a trajectory that ends in the mass-murder of 6 millions Muslims in concentration camps?

    You would hope not, but let's look at what Mr Karate said,

    "When he starts demolishing Mosques stripping Muslims of citizenship and mass deportations I'll give him credit. Until then its his usual lip service."

    So, I would hope that Mr Karate is just a lone nutter or troll on that one, but the worry is that each measure taken is not extreme enough for some.


  • #64
    SexBobomb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 442 ✭✭SexBobomb


    briany wrote: »
    Any group is made of individuals, including Muslims, and moderate/liberal/irreligious ones shouldn't have to face vilification due to the actions of individuals with whom they are associated in the eyes of others.

    Now what the heck is an irreligious muslim ??


  • #65
    46 Long
    Closed Accounts Posts: 355 ✭✭46 Long


    briany wrote: »
    You would hope not, but let's look at what Mr Karate said,

    "When he starts demolishing Mosques stripping Muslims of citizenship and mass deportations I'll give him credit. Until then its his usual lip service."

    So, I would hope that Mr Karate is just a lone nutter or troll on that one, but the worry is that each measure taken is not extreme enough for some.

    I don't know Mr. Karate, but I would imagine that he meant deporting those convicted of crimes or on terrorist watchlists. Certainly any mosque promoting extremism should be shut down.

    I'm still not seeing anything even remotely resembling calls for concentration camps or the mass slaughter of Muslims. I suggest you either provide something to back up your ridiculous claim, or withdraw it.


  • #66
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,867 ✭✭✭✭briany


    46 Long wrote: »
    I don't know Mr. Karate, but I would imagine that he meant deporting those convicted of crimes or on terrorist watchlists. Certainly any mosque promoting extremism should be shut down.

    I'm still not seeing anything even remotely resembling calls for concentration camps or the mass slaughter of Muslims. I suggest you either provide something to back up your ridiculous claim, or withdraw it.

    You imagine he meant....

    Well if you're willing to give the benefit of the doubt on that one, even though he made no such stipulation, maybe you'd do the same for me, or even better, reread the following,

    "On the current trajectory, I can only envision things going a similar way for the Muslim populations of Europe"

    So, as you can see, this is my speculation on the future based on the current growing hostility toward Muslim populations in Europe.


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  • #67
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,867 ✭✭✭✭briany


    SexBobomb wrote: »
    Now what the heck is an irreligious muslim ??

    Same thing as a cultural Catholic. Someone raised in/around the faith and attends weddings and funerals, but doesn't really care about it outside of that.


  • #68
    46 Long
    Closed Accounts Posts: 355 ✭✭46 Long


    briany wrote: »
    So, as you can see, this is my speculation on the future based on the current growing hostility toward Muslim populations in Europe.


    A slippery slope fallacy, in other words.


  • #69
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,211 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    It would have been better for Macron to get ALL religious leaders in France to sign this.

    Leaders of the catholic protestant churches too...rabbis etc.


  • #70
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    46 Long wrote: »
    Do you genuinely think that in Europe, in 2020 - asking Muslims to accept European values starts us on a trajectory that ends in the mass-murder of 6 millions Muslims in concentration camps?
    About the biggest reason for this gra for "diversity" and "multiculturalism" is not because it works, as it quite clearly doesn't, least of all for the diverse, it's down to exactly that fear and guilt of another war between European nations and a holocaust in mainland Europe that came off the back of WW2 and the nazis(the EU itself came out of that fear). We're still living in the shadow of that.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #71
    donaghs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,865 ✭✭✭donaghs


    briany wrote: »
    I objected to that posters remark for failing to, or choosing not to, delineate between someone who is simply a Muslim and someone who's an Islamic extremist. We can't generalise on that because in this case it could lead to the unnecessary vilification of innocent people.

    It's unfortunate to have to invoke Godwinn's law, but the historical parallels are too big to ignore. Far right rhetoric and populist rhetoric thrives on crass generalisation, and the antidote to it is nuance. Any group is made of individuals, including Muslims, and moderate/liberal/irreligious ones shouldn't have to face vilification due to the actions of individuals with whom they are associated in the eyes of others.

    Was Kemal Ataturk being racist/Islamaphobic when he insisted that Turkish Muslims accept his secular republican system? Marcon is not asking for much in comparison.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Six_Arrows


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  • #72
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    Macron has boxed clever. He has set a target of "Republic values "
    He now has an excuse to go after Islam if that target is not reached

    Well played Emmanuel


  • #73
    donaghs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,865 ✭✭✭donaghs


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    Macron has boxed clever. He has set a target of "Republic values "
    He now has an excuse to go after Islam if that target is not reached

    Well played Emmanuel

    How do you "go after Islam"? Its just a bunch of ideas, open to interpretation.

    If you mean not accepting the interpretation of Islam that preach violence, and promote as a political movement, as a religion - that seems fairly reasonable in the modern world.

    Ataturk's legacy in Turkey is being dissolved, but look how far he went.


  • #74
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    donaghs wrote: »
    Ataturk's legacy in Turkey is being dissolved, but look how far he went.
    Yes but he was making changes in a very different time. A time when more people in majority Muslim states wanted a taste of the "modern" and "western". It happened pretty much everywhere in the Muslim world of the ME. Iraq at one time even had a pretty popular communist party(it's still there, but much reduced). What put paid to it was largely western interference propping up puppet leaders fighting the cold war by proxy. That quite naturally alienated local populations who had long memories of how western powers had carved up the ME previously and dragged them into their wars.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #75
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    donaghs wrote: »
    How do you "go after Islam"? Its just a bunch of ideas, open to interpretation.

    If you mean not accepting the interpretation of Islam that preach violence, and promote as a political movement, as a religion - that seems fairly reasonable in the modern world.

    Ataturk's legacy in Turkey is being dissolved, but look how far he went.

    Sorry i should have been clearer. It gives a reason and justification for french authorities to come down hard on radical Islam and any organisation suspected of radicalisation or fringe operation.

    Normal hard working Muslims have nothing to worry about


  • #76
    ElJeffe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 725 ✭✭✭ElJeffe


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    Macron has boxed clever. He has set a target of "Republic values "
    He now has an excuse to go after Islam if that target is not reached

    Well played Emmanuel

    You can't "go after Islam". The problem has already embedded itself in the greater community and it's impossible to eradicate it. The western world has lost the war, these battles are pointless. People who warned about this happening many years ago where called racists by the likes of Macron.


  • #77
    Mr. Karate
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭Mr. Karate


    briany wrote: »
    Same thing as a cultural Catholic. Someone raised in/around the faith and attends weddings and funerals, but doesn't really care about it outside of that.

    There is no such thing as a cultural Muslim/lapsed Muslim. It is forbidden. You are All In or Dead.

    People need to wake up the reality that this a dangerous ideology.


  • #78
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Mr. Karate wrote: »
    There is no such thing as a cultural Muslim/lapsed Muslim. It is forbidden. You are All In or Dead.

    People need to wake up the reality that this a dangerous ideology.

    I know Muslims who have no interest in observing Islamic religious practices, interestingly they're all still politically very Muslim, great Satan America, don't like Jews and so on.


  • #79
    Mr. Karate
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭Mr. Karate


    Bambi wrote: »
    I know Muslims who have no interest in observing Islamic religious practices, interestingly they're all still politically very Muslim, great Satan America, don't like Jews and so on.

    Then they're bs'ing you. Islam is as much of a political ideology [Sharia] as much as it is a religion. They cannot be separated.


  • #80
    statesaver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭statesaver


    Has any other European leader come out in support of Macron ?


  • #81
    statesaver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭statesaver


    Bambi wrote: »
    I know Muslims who have no interest in observing Islamic religious practices, interestingly they're all still politically very Muslim, great Satan America, don't like Jews and so on.

    Think there is some term / law / passage in the Quran that allows Muslims to lie to infidels.
    Maybe that's what they are doing to you.


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  • #82
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Bambi wrote: »
    I know Muslims who have no interest in observing Islamic religious practices, interestingly they're all still politically very Muslim, great Satan America, don't like Jews and so on.
    If they don't pray etc then they are not real Muslims. They may say they are, but they are not.
    Salah is an obligatory ritual for all Muslims, except for those who are prepubescent or menstruating.


  • #83
    Mr. Karate
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭Mr. Karate


    statesaver wrote: »
    Think there is some term / law / passage in the Quran that allows Muslims to lie to infidels.
    Maybe that's what they are doing to you.

    Taqiyya. The ability to deceive [lie] non Muslims in order to help the spread of Islam [Islam is a religion of peace anyone?] Anything they say to us should be heavily scrutinized.

    Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by God in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And God warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to God is the final return. Qur’an 3:28


  • #84
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Mr. Karate wrote: »
    Then they're bs'ing you. Islam is as much of a political ideology [Sharia] as much as it is a religion. They cannot be separated.

    Honestly they ain't, born into Western Muslim families and have no interest in following Islam, they're kids arent being raised as Muslims but they will still side with Muslim positions on political issues


  • #85
    Mr. Karate
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭Mr. Karate


    Bambi wrote: »
    Honestly they ain't, born into Western Muslim families and have no interest in following Islam,

    History has shown us in the last near 2 decades in the West that those end up the most radicalized.


  • #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    biko wrote: »
    If they don't pray etc then they are not real Muslims. They may say they are, but they are not.
    Salah is an obligatory ritual for all Muslims, except for those who are prepubescent or menstruating.

    I seem to remember that once you're baptized into Christianity, it's pretty difficult to stop being a Christian. At least, in the eyes of other Christians... Dunno, if there is a legal perspective from when the RCC was more influential/powerful?

    "The fact of having been baptized remains a fact and the Catholic Church holds that baptism marks a person with a lasting seal or character that "is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection."

    Would there be something similar for Muslims? Once inducted into the faith, that it's difficult to leave it, except as an non-practicing Muslim, but still seen as a Muslim? Considering that Islam is a very community focused faith, leaving it might be possible, but.... would it be sensible? (apostasy) I'd imagine anyone wanting to stop being Muslim, would still call themselves such, while keeping a very low profile...


  • #87
    Mr. Karate
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭Mr. Karate


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I seem to remember that once you're baptized into Christianity, it's pretty difficult to stop being a Christian. At least, in the eyes of other Christians... Dunno, if there is a legal perspective from when the RCC was more influential/powerful?

    "The fact of having been baptized remains a fact and the Catholic Church holds that baptism marks a person with a lasting seal or character that "is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection."

    Would there be something similar for Muslims? Once inducted into the faith, that it's difficult to leave it, except as an non-practicing Muslim, but still seen as a Muslim? Considering that Islam is a very community focused faith, leaving it might be possible, but.... would it be sensible? (apostasy) I'd imagine anyone wanting to stop being Muslim, would still call themselves such, while keeping a very low profile...

    No, leaving Islam is punishable by death.

    https://abdullahsameer.com/apostasy/

    https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx

    People to seriously start removing their heads from their asses when it comes to Islam. It is NOTHING like Christianity. And people need to stop acting like it is.


  • #88
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mr. Karate wrote: »
    No, leaving Islam is punishable by death.

    https://abdullahsameer.com/apostasy/

    https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx

    People to seriously start removing their heads from their asses when it comes to Islam. It is NOTHING like Christianity. And people need to stop acting like it is.

    I've said before this that there can be no true comparison between Islam and Christianity. Discussing about how people can/can't leave a religion isn't seeking to compare the two to justify anything...

    So... yeah.. people do need to start removing their heads from their asses, and remember what has been said before. :rolleyes:
    Forcing reform isn't possible, since it simply creates martyrs. Christianity and Islam are completely different, and there's no real comparison to be made. The reform of Christianity is directly connected to our history of social development, and Islamic countries have gone a different direction to what European/western nations did.


  • #89
    Mr. Karate
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭Mr. Karate


    [QUOTE=Deleted User;115377579]I've said before this that there can be no true comparison between Islam and Christianity. Discussing about how people can/can't leave a religion isn't seeking to compare the two to justify anything...

    So... yeah.. people do need to start removing their heads from their asses, and remember what has been said before. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    That last statement of mine was more of a general one than a statement made directly at you. My apologies for that.

    It amazes me seeing willful ignorance of people defending Islam. How much more evidence do they need before they realize the truth? Does Ireland need a 9/11 of its own before the bleeding hearts here finally the truth?


  • #90
    not yet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,008 ✭✭✭not yet


    A good start would be stopping the billions of euro sent to these communities from Saudi. There is a programme to place to fund the building of Mosques around Europe, funded Saudi Arabia.


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  • #91
    Mr. Karate
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭Mr. Karate


    not yet wrote: »
    A good start would be stopping the billions of euro sent to these communities from Saudi. There is a programme to place to fund the building of Mosques around Europe, funded Saudi Arabia.

    Or Govt doesn't have the backbone to do it.


  • #92
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mr. Karate wrote: »
    That last statement of mine was more of a general one than a statement made directly at you. My apologies for that.

    Fair enough, I appreciate the apology.
    It amazes me seeing willful ignorance of people defending Islam. How much more evidence do they need before they realize the truth? Does Ireland need a 9/11 of its own before the bleeding hearts here finally the truth?

    Yeah, I can understand, however, nowhere in my post was I defending Islam.... and that's the danger. Just as people previously shut down discussion about Islam by throwing around Racist, Islamophobia, etc, we need to be careful not to shut down discussion in other ways...

    Ireland... TBH I doubt a 9/11 would waken people up that much. It's not a single incident that would likely need to happen but a series of horrible incidents over a few months. The Irish have an amazing ability to shrug off just about anything, which we've seen before.

    All the same, Ireland is good at following in the steps of others, and if a few countries in Europe, head down this path, maybe/possibly, our Politicians might seek approval from the Irish people.


  • #93
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,054 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    When you look at the bombing of the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester . 22 dead, 10 of them children.

    The reaction was muted, the Mosque he went to with its constant hate preaching was untouched, people laid lots of flowers, and that was that.

    A clear message was sent out to Islamic radicals, no matter how hard you push, we will bend further for you.


  • #94
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    If you have a free hour, this is an eye opening interview

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-HhxAImKwU


  • #95
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,054 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    If you have a free hour, this is an eye opening interview

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-HhxAImKwU

    Very good.


  • #96
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,631 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    Danzy wrote: »
    When you look at the bombing of the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester . 22 dead, 10 of them children.

    The reaction was muted, the Mosque he went to with its constant hate preaching was untouched, people laid lots of flowers, and that was that.

    A clear message was sent out to Islamic radicals, no matter how hard you push, we will bend further for you.

    There is still more outrage in the UK over the Birmingham pub bombings than there is displayed over the Manchester Arena attack which happened ~45 years ago with a similar death toll of 21. I've noted when newsreaders introduce a topic on the Manchester attack to this day their tone is one as if it was a tragic accident rather than what it really was.


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  • #97
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    One way to combat extremism is doing what Morocco does.
    I've heard their prayers are written centrally and distributed out to the mosques.
    There isn't much room for imams to go rogue.


    Note, it doesn't always work. Where there is religion there is the possibility of terrible crimes.
    On 17 December 2018, the bodies of Louisa Vesterager Jespersen, a 24-year-old Danish woman, and Maren Ueland, a 28-year-old Norwegian woman, were found decapitated in the foothills of Mount Toubkal near to the village of Imlil in the Atlas Mountains of Morocco.

    A total of 18 men have been arrested by Moroccan Police in relation to the murders. The murders were described by the Moroccan general prosecutor as a terrorist act after a video of some of the suspects swearing allegiance to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant while decapitating Louisa Jespersen was released on the Internet


  • #98
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,998 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Danzy wrote: »
    When you look at the bombing of the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester . 22 dead, 10 of them children.

    The reaction was muted, the Mosque he went to with its constant hate preaching was untouched, people laid lots of flowers, and that was that.

    A clear message was sent out to Islamic radicals, no matter how hard you push, we will bend further for you.

    When you consider the reaction to the death of George Floyd it is shameful. British public figures still bow in veneration to an American BLM narrative. Meanwhile those British children at the Ariana Grande concert are completely forgotten about - no murals, no rioting, no kneeling gestures by sports teams, no demands for change. Just don't look back in anger, deescalate, demotivate and forget.

    Let alone the related scandal of tens of thousands of British girls being groomed and raped by ethnic gangs brought into the UK by the government. An estimated 19,000 girls still being groomed every year and no scandal. The official report into the scandal has been buried by the Johnson government - they're still afraid to release it. And no scandal. It seems ethnic grooming gangs are just part and parcel of living in the multicultural UK.

    You know the UK is a deeply sick society when the death of a drug using convicted criminal in a foreign country is more unacceptable to that society than the murder and rape of their own children.


  • #99
    ElJeffe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 725 ✭✭✭ElJeffe


    AllForIt wrote: »
    There is still more outrage in the UK over the Birmingham pub bombings than there is displayed over the Manchester Arena attack which happened ~45 years ago with a similar death toll of 21. I've noted when newsreaders introduce a topic on the Manchester attack to this day their tone is one as if it was a tragic accident rather than what it really was.

    Islamic terrorism is a massive growing problem that won't be solved with a few empty election focused words from Macron. Islam has embedded itself deeply in French society and the problem is impossible to resolve and Macron knows this well.

    What France has become should serve as a warning to other countries such as ourselves but unfortunately i see no signs of our leaders wanting to go a different avenue.


  • #100
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Islamic terrorism is a massive growing problem that won't be solved with a few empty election focused words from Macron.

    It's a problem, but it's not a massive problem. The number of attacks over the last decade haven't been particularly "massive".
    Islam has embedded itself deeply in French society and the problem is impossible to resolve and Macron knows this well.

    No, it hasn't.. because French society (for French people, and most other westerners) is still removed from the Islamic migrants, because integration has consistently failed to occur. The migrants and those who naturalised coming from Islamic nations, tend to create enclaves, and keep themselves separate from French society.

    While there has been some absorbing of Muslims into French society, the actual impact is really low.. as are the numbers involved. In most French cities, or their suburbs, Muslims live together in Ghettos or enclaves, promoting their own culture and society, rather than involving themselves directly in French society/culture.
    What France has become should serve as a warning to other countries such as ourselves but unfortunately i see no signs of our leaders wanting to go a different avenue.

    Sure, it should serve as a warning, as should Sweden, Denmark, the UK, etc.. but let's not go overboard here. Deportations, and greater regulations/monitoring of migrants would solve many of the current issues.


  • #101
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Sand wrote: »
    When you consider the reaction to the death of George Floyd it is shameful. British public figures still bow in veneration to an American BLM narrative. Meanwhile those British children at the Ariana Grande concert are completely forgotten about - no murals, no rioting, no kneeling gestures by sports teams, no demands for change. Just don't look back in anger, deescalate, demotivate and forget.

    For some reason "don't kneel on my neck" is more catchy than "don't saw through my neck"


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