Why are the Irish Government siding with the DUP and Tories over Article 16?

Fred Cryton · 31-01-2021 10:45AM #1

Monitoring and if necessary preventing EU produced vaccines moving from EU to UK is a legitimate and perfectly reasonable aim of the EU in the context of the AstraZeneca contract reneging debacle.

Last i checked the UK included NI, and would be a backdoor into GB.

The Irish government need to decide who's side they're on here. The DUP/Tories or the EU? Of course SF are against anything which acknowledges partition, so their view isn't relevant here. Are the Irish government so naive that they would allow vaccines be shipped from Dublin to Belfast and on to GB at a time of limited supply, rather than upset the Unionists?

The_Brood · 31-01-2021 10:53AM

It's this extremely weird and ongoing, decades-long dance of pretending like Northern Ireland is both part of the UK and part of Ireland at the same time. That's a fantasy that is always going to come crashing down when practical issues arise. How long precisely does everyone think it can drag on for? There needs to be a final vote on the issue and then a hard border needs to be drawn - either on this island or in the sea. The fact that it will make life much harder for folks that live/work across borders? Well welcome to the reality people face almost everywhere else in the world.

31-01-2021 10:54AM

With their frantic dismissal of Zero Covid and sheer reluctance to introduce quarantine measures to suppress new variants, the Irish Government are undoubtedly bending over backwards to appease the Tories & DUP. Shinners are hopelessly out of step here, temporary border checks are essential. EU were only right to shut the door after Britain slyly courted AZ and skipped to the top of queue. Quid pro quo, as Farage would mangle into his pint of bitter.

lawred2 · 31-01-2021 10:57AM

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Monitoring and if necessary preventing EU produced vaccines moving from EU to UK is a legitimate and perfectly reasonable aim of the EU in the context of the AstraZeneca contract reneging debacle.

Last i checked the UK included NI, and would be a backdoor into GB.

The Irish government need to decide who's side they're on here. The DUP/Tories or the EU? Of course SF are against anything which acknowledges partition, so their view isn't relevant here. Are the Irish government so naive that they would allow vaccines be shipped from Dublin to Belfast and on to GB at a time of limited supply, rather than upset the Unionists?

Because dealing with this vaccine needs an all Island approach

We need as much vaccine as possible on both sides of the border.

It's on our interest to ensure that those in NI are vaccinated as soon as possible and vice versa.

It's not about the DUP. It's about Irish people who live on all corners of this island.

meeeeh · 31-01-2021 11:02AM

Those who call for shutting the border forget that if EU closes the border so quickly so can UK. Eu gave huge gift to Arlene for future reassessment of article 16 (every 4 years).

EU action was incredibly stupid and rash. I say that as huge pro European.

TheValeyard · 31-01-2021 11:10AM

Because it was a stupid thing for the EU to do. The Dail Mail, Daily Express, DUP, and Tory party are touching themselves silly over this.

Fred Cryton · 31-01-2021 11:25AM

lawred2 wrote: »

Because dealing with this vaccine needs an all Island approach

We need as much vaccine as possible on both sides of the border.

It's on our interest to ensure that those in NI are vaccinated as soon as possible and vice versa.

It's not about the DUP. It's about Irish people who live on all corners of this island.

Sounds suspiciously like the Shinner viewpoint which pretends the island is one country.

Fred Cryton · 31-01-2021 11:27AM

TheValeyard wrote: »

Because it was a stupid thing for the EU to do. The Dail Mail, Daily Express, DUP, and Tory party are touching themselves silly over this.

Why is it stupid? It's perfectly correct thing for the EU to do - AstraZeneca have not interrupted UK vaccine supplies even though UK factories are listed on the EU contract. You really want EU produced vaccines shipped to the UK after that? Who cares if Arlene is furious.

beerguts · 31-01-2021 11:43AM

For a lot of Irish people in the Republic we are sick to death of the Northern Irish. They make everything political, where common sense in this covid 19 pandemic should dictate that we work together we can't because a bunch of planters. These morons who think they are superior to us in every sense have lived of the British tit for generations and would never lower themselves to take the lead from Dublin. Coupled with this a nationalist population up there who love to be seen as the victim always.
I cannot hack any northerner anymore and I want done with the place. But what really galls me is our political parties who never challenged them or try to impose some standards in how they run their affairs, just look at the Quinn industries where the director was kidnapped and mutilated. This happened because our authorities dont want to rock the boat up there with the nordies on the border and let the situation get totally out of hand.
But let the Irish government know this if they in some way endanger our place in the single market just to placate them in that northern dump they will have a very angry populace in the Republic. Shut the border now.

lawred2 · 31-01-2021 01:15PM

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Sounds suspiciously like the Shinner viewpoint which pretends the island is one country.

Jesus wept

Good thread this

31-01-2021 01:19PM

lawred2 wrote: »

Jesus wept

Good thread this

Well, it’s not.

joseywhales · 31-01-2021 01:28PM

I dont understand why this is so nationalistic, the eu should just sue astra zeneca if they are breaking contract. If the liability is high enough to bring down the company, they will route some supply from their uk factories.

O'Neill · 31-01-2021 01:29PM

beerguts wrote: »

For a lot of Irish people in the Republic we are sick to death of the Northern Irish. They make everything political, where common sense in this covid 19 pandemic should dictate that we work together we can't because a bunch of planters. These morons who think they are superior to us in every sense have lived of the British tit for generations and would never lower themselves to take the lead from Dublin. Coupled with this a nationalist population up there who love to be seen as the victim always.
I cannot hack any northerner anymore and I want done with the place. But what really galls me is our political parties who never challenged them or try to impose some standards in how they run their affairs, just look at the Quinn industries where the director was kidnapped and mutilated. This happened because our authorities dont want to rock the boat up there with the nordies on the border and let the situation get totally out of hand.
But let the Irish government know this if they in some way endanger our place in the single market just to placate them in that northern dump they will have a very angry populace in the Republic. Shut the border now.

Why are comments like the one above hardly ever challenged on here. Nice generalisation you've got there. You sound like a victim yourself FFS. Don't know where to even begin with this nonsense.

lawred2 · 31-01-2021 01:30PM

O'Neill wrote: »

Why are comments like the one above hardly ever challenged on here. Nice generalisation you've got there. Don't know where to even begin with this nonsense.

Why challenge it?

Just ignore it.

suicide_circus · 31-01-2021 01:33PM

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Why is it stupid? It's perfectly correct thing for the EU to do

Then why did the EU furiously back peddle and call it an "oversight"?

livia21 · 31-01-2021 01:38PM

Article 16 had it been invoked would have made it difficult for Irish in the north getting the vacine,,Irish Gov did not side with DUP and tories.

They sided with the Irish

Fionn1952 · 31-01-2021 01:39PM

beerguts wrote: »

just look at the Quinn industries where the director was kidnapped and mutilated. This happened because our authorities dont want to rock the boat up there with the nordies on the border and let the situation get totally out of hand.
But let the Irish government know this if they in some way endanger our place in the single market just to placate them in that northern dump they will have a very angry populace in the Republic. Shut the border now.

Despite Kevin Lunney being a fellow Fermanagh man, I'd suggest you look into who is alleged to have been behind the attack.

Cyril McGuinness, a Dub. Luke O'Reilly from Cavan, Alan O’Brien and Darren Redmond both Dubs.

But sure, go on ahead with your faux outrage.

Donald Trump · 31-01-2021 02:02PM

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Despite Kevin Lunney being a fellow Fermanagh man, I'd suggest you look into who is alleged to have been behind the attack.

Cyril McGuinness, a Dub. Luke O'Reilly from Cavan, Alan O’Brien and Darren Redmond both Dubs.

But sure, go on ahead with your faux outrage.

Those lads didn't wake up one morning and spontaneously think to themselves - "hey lads, you know what would be great craic - couldn't we go up and attack some facilities related to Quinn's previous business, and sure later on we could escalate it to kidnapping and assault".

If it had been a crowd of Sicilian gangsters shipped in who had done it you'd hardly be blaming the people of Italy for it.

Fionn1952 · 31-01-2021 02:10PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Those lads didn't wake up one morning and spontaneously think to themselves - "hey lads, you know what would be great craic - couldn't we go up and attack some facilities related to Quinn's previous business, and sure later on we could escalate it to kidnapping and assault".

If it had been a crowd of Sicilian gangsters shipped in who had done it you'd hardly be blaming the people of Italy for it.

I would tend towards the outlandish approach of blaming the people who committed a crime for committing said crime.

Would I blame the entire population of Italy for the actions of a few Sicilian gangsters? No.....but I wouldn't go blaming all of the Greeks either because I'd heard a few of them were shifty and they might have talked to those Sicilians.

Fred Cryton · 31-01-2021 02:13PM

livia21 wrote: »

Article 16 had it been invoked would have made it difficult for Irish in the north getting the vacine,,Irish Gov did not side with DUP and tories.

They sided with the Irish

You mean the British territory in the North which is well ahead of the Irish in the South getting the vaccine? And whats to prevent it then being shipped into GB.

Yamanoto · 31-01-2021 02:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

EU were only right to shut the door after Britain slyly courted AZ and skipped to the top of queue. Quid pro quo, as Farage would mangle into his pint of bitter.

Were the UK sly?

They quickly moved to secure supply a couple of months ago and same was absolutely public knowledge.

As per usual, the EU were slug-slow to act in the best interests of their citizens.

beerguts · 31-01-2021 03:21PM

O'Neill wrote: »

Why are comments like the one above hardly ever challenged on here. Nice generalisation you've got there. You sound like a victim yourself FFS. Don't know where to even begin with this nonsense.

What generalisation. It is because we have to thread on eggshells with them up there that we could not attempt a zero covid policy on the island. I am not trying to lessen the balls we made with international travel and the general irresponsibility of the population here but because they are so sensitive to any distancing from their mother country or to be seen to give an inch to the other side they cannot see reason. I am tired of it completely.

beerguts · 31-01-2021 03:26PM

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Despite Kevin Lunney being a fellow Fermanagh man, I'd suggest you look into who is alleged to have been behind the attack.

Cyril McGuinness, a Dub. Luke O'Reilly from Cavan, Alan O’Brien and Darren Redmond both Dubs.

But sure, go on ahead with your faux outrage.

What faux outrage. It is because the border area gets a very light touch from the authorities that the intimidation of the Quinn directors went unchecked. Its doesn't matter where the persons came from that did the assault but rather the environment that allowed it to fester

suicide_circus · 31-01-2021 03:29PM

Yamanoto wrote: »

As per usual, the EU were slug-slow to act in the best interests of their citizens.

Just as you have people who think the EU can do no right, you have a lot of people who think it can do no wrong.

James Brown · 31-01-2021 03:33PM

You have everyone saying it was a bad idea, because it was. The brits snook some vaccine and thats on the company. Penalise the company. Don't play with the north.
Doing so so soon has Foster pissed off and thats understandable.

tdf7187 · 31-01-2021 03:34PM

O'Neill wrote: »

Why are comments like the one above hardly ever challenged on here. Nice generalisation you've got there. You sound like a victim yourself FFS. Don't know where to even begin with this nonsense.

As Lawred said, comments like the one you refer to, by no means uncommon here, are probably better off ignored, but unfortunately anti-northern prejudice - essentially a form of bigotry/racism - is seen as acceptable here. It's a close cousin, perhaps a subset, of partitionism, though traditionally partitionists tend to only exhibit prejudice against northern nationalists while simpering and sucking up to unionists (a weird form of self-hatred, ultimately. The unionists probably think they are strange).

tayto lover · 31-01-2021 03:36PM

The EU let Ireland down in a sneaky manner.
They had plenty of time for the NI Protocol until it didn’t suit them.

tdf7187 · 31-01-2021 03:38PM

The OP is so bizarre I can barely take it seriously.

If a move unites SF, the DUP, the SDLP (I couldn't be bothered listing all the NI parties), the Irish government and the UK government against you, it might possibly be because the move was wrong, and indeed the EU has speedily bowed to pressure and reversed itself.

grassylawn · 31-01-2021 03:54PM

I don't see vaccines that go into NI directly coming out of our share.
The level of infection up there does directly affect he level of infection here.
So it's in our interest that they get the vaccines.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 31-01-2021 03:56PM

I don't know. I think romantic notions of an United Ireland coupled with the weird status of Northern Ireland with Brexit led our politicians in the Republic to back Northern Ireland and Britain.

I fear violence regarding Northern Ireland is getting closer, Loyalists have threatened to kill Varadkar for instance. The more an United Ireland is discussed the more the tensions will get ratcheted up.

Living in the southwest of the country I have more things in my mind than Northern Ireland.

lawred2 · 31-01-2021 03:59PM

Lucy Sparse Burglar wrote: »

I don't know. I think romantic notions of an United Ireland coupled with the weird status of Northern Ireland with Brexit led our politicians in the Republic to back Northern Ireland and Britain.

I fear violence regarding Northern Ireland is getting closer, Loyalists have threatened to kill Varadkar for instance. The more an United Ireland is discussed the more the tensions will get ratcheted up.

Living in the southwest of the country I have more things in my mind than Northern Ireland.

huh?

um7y1h83ge06nx · 31-01-2021 04:01PM

lawred2 wrote: »

huh?

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/psni-treating-graffiti-aimed-tanaiste-23416953

lawred2 · 31-01-2021 04:03PM

Lucy Sparse Burglar wrote: »

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/psni-treating-graffiti-aimed-tanaiste-23416953

That doesn't mean a whole lot

bilston · 31-01-2021 04:06PM

beerguts wrote: »

For a lot of Irish people in the Republic we are sick to death of the Northern Irish. They make everything political, where common sense in this covid 19 pandemic should dictate that we work together we can't because a bunch of planters. These morons who think they are superior to us in every sense have lived of the British tit for generations and would never lower themselves to take the lead from Dublin. Coupled with this a nationalist population up there who love to be seen as the victim always.
I cannot hack any northerner anymore and I want done with the place. But what really galls me is our political parties who never challenged them or try to impose some standards in how they run their affairs, just look at the Quinn industries where the director was kidnapped and mutilated. This happened because our authorities dont want to rock the boat up there with the nordies on the border and let the situation get totally out of hand.
But let the Irish government know this if they in some way endanger our place in the single market just to placate them in that northern dump they will have a very angry populace in the Republic. Shut the border now.

We love you too mate.

Like really you are incredibly ignorant of Northern Ireland the people who live there.

Admit...you really haven't a clue what you're talking about.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 31-01-2021 04:07PM

lawred2 wrote: »

That doesn't mean a whole lot

The PSNI seem to think differently. Maybe it isn't but it would be naive to think that even a small minority in NI aren't happy about all the recent talk about an United Ireland. I say they are still pretty hardcore in places like East Belfast.

bilston · 31-01-2021 04:11PM

I voted Remain and stand by that viewpoint (being from NI)...but what staggers me about it is that the EU actually invoked Article 16 without telling the Irish government...think about that for a minute and tell me that isn't staggering. I'm still a Remainer (for what it's worth nowadays), but when I see things like that I have to concede that not all Brexiteer points are ridiculous.

joseywhales · 31-01-2021 04:13PM

The issue is macron and his belief that playing billy big balls works politically in the modern era. He has been constantly throwing jibes around brexit and then after this issue he threw shade on whether astra zeneca was safe for over 65s , clearly against the recommendation of eu health.

He is basically a **** stirrer who uses populist french sentiment to mask his own incompetence.

And I actually support the EU, just not a macron fan. Merkel is her balanced and we'll thought out self as usual.

CrazyFather1 · 31-01-2021 04:21PM

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Monitoring and if necessary preventing EU produced vaccines moving from EU to UK is a legitimate and perfectly reasonable aim of the EU in the context of the AstraZeneca contract reneging debacle.

Last i checked the UK included NI, and would be a backdoor into GB.

The Irish government need to decide who's side they're on here. The DUP/Tories or the EU? Of course SF are against anything which acknowledges partition, so their view isn't relevant here. Are the Irish government so naive that they would allow vaccines be shipped from Dublin to Belfast and on to GB at a time of limited supply, rather than upset the Unionists?

The Northern assembly are f**king useless. At this stage the English have tried to break as many ties as possible so they have passed them over to us. Unless the Republic does something then nothing will happen.

beerguts · 31-01-2021 04:23PM

bilston wrote: »

We love you too mate.

Like really you are incredibly ignorant of Northern Ireland the people who live there.

Admit...you really haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Yes I am an Irish citizen from a county over a hundred miles from your statelet (Assuming you are from there and not some Shinner fanboy). I have been to Belfast which was a nice city but I have seen it once and have no desire to go there again. I have worked with Northern Irish in the Republic and have always avoided talking about their views or life up there in general. This is because I do not know much regards the North nor really care. What I do care about is how my politicians in the Republic represent this country. I do not want for them to be seen taking the side of either GB or the Northern Irish above the EU. This is where my loyalties lie. Does this make you happy!!

BTW - I brought up the Quinn incident because of his role in the Anglo Irish collapse and his subsequent attempts to avoid facing the consequences for his actions which led in part to the assault of the ex Quinn director.

suicide_circus · 31-01-2021 04:44PM

bilston wrote: »

I voted Remain and stand by that viewpoint (being from NI)...but what staggers me about it is that the EU actually invoked Article 16 without telling the Irish government...think about that for a minute and tell me that isn't staggering. I'm still a Remainer (for what it's worth nowadays), but when I see things like that I have to concede that not all Brexiteer points are ridiculous.

The EU's support for Ireland in terms of the border during the Brexit talks was little more than a negotiating tactic, something to hit the brits over the head with.

timeToLive · 31-01-2021 04:45PM

No vaccines should leave the EU at all until we're all accounted for unless it's reciprocal

suicide_circus · 31-01-2021 04:47PM

timeToLive wrote: »

No vaccines should leave the EU at all until we're all accounted for unless it's reciprocal

The WHO disagrees.

timeToLive · 31-01-2021 04:52PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

The WHO disagrees.

Who?

Do not rely on the WHO

suicide_circus · 31-01-2021 04:55PM

timeToLive wrote: »

Who?

Do not rely on the WHO

Well i'd agree the WHO havent exactly played a blinder over the last year but using this vaccine and a small member state as pawns is not a good look for the Union.

firemansam4 · 31-01-2021 05:07PM

bilston wrote: »

I voted Remain and stand by that viewpoint (being from NI)...but what staggers me about it is that the EU actually invoked Article 16 without telling the Irish government...think about that for a minute and tell me that isn't staggering. I'm still a Remainer (for what it's worth nowadays), but when I see things like that I have to concede that not all Brexiteer points are ridiculous.

The EU never invoked Article 16. It was never actually passed.
The EU realised what a **** up they made by threatening to invoke this, and promptly backtracked on it. They have admitted it was a mistake.
Now up until this the EU have backed Ireland in every way when it comes to the protocol to protect against the hard border.

Contrast this to the way the UK have acted throughout the Brexit process where they actually did bring in the Internal markets bill and broke international law doing so. I think many might give the EU a pass on this as long as its not indicitive of future actions.

statesaver · 31-01-2021 05:43PM

Lucy Sparse Burglar wrote: »

The PSNI seem to think differently. Maybe it isn't but it would be naive to think that even a small minority in NI aren't happy about all the recent talk about an United Ireland. I say they are still pretty hardcore in places like East Belfast.

People in both countries unhappy about talk of an united Ireland.

flazio · 01-02-2021 11:44AM

In relation to the OP. The Dáil was elected, both government and opposition TDs, to do what is in the best interests of the Irish people, not Europe, not the UK, the Irish.

Why are the Irish Government siding with the DUP and Tories over Article 16?

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