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Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.
Comments
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Why do people hate the yellow sliothar so much?1
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There were some very good, close games in 2018 and that’s still papering over the cracks. There were a couple in 2016 too.
The adjustments in football have worked rather well, much better game now, but the dominance of Dublin has overshadowed that.
The 02 and 2011 All Ireland’s were in Eir sport, hurling was a far better watch in those years than now unfortunately.
To compare it to other sports, watching it used to be a bit like watching a big heavyweight fight, you couldn’t take your eyes off it or there was a good chance of missing something significant. Now I think that tension has gone from most games, you could have a chat with someone, look at stuff on your phone, and not really worry that much about it.0 -
Why do you keep mentioning 70s and 80s? Nobody cares about that.
Rules have always been brought into sports to deal with prevailing conditions. That's all that being suggested. Sport does not evolve in a vacuum. Rules have a fundamental impact. Helps move a game forward. You are the only one mentioning the past. Even the past five years is irrelevant. It's the next 5/10 that count now.
Hang on, there's been numerous references to sliothars being much heavier in the past and ground hurling which hasn't been a factor in the game since the mid eighties so no its not me bringing it up. The game is evolving, its in a good place apart from the rules that aren't enforced. That's where the conversation should start, not bringing in new rules.1 -
Why do people hate the yellow sliothar so much?
Find it a little harder see, not that much, but definitely a step in the wrong direction. If they were going to change the colour I think yellow was a poor choice, at certain times of the year and particularly in summer the grass will also have a yellow hue.
Was glad to hear Mullane raise this on the radio, again tinkering to appease TV analysts got taken too far and a new issue arose.0 -
Sunny Disposition wrote: »There were some very good, close games in 2018 and that’s still papering over the cracks. There were a couple in 2016 too.
The adjustments in football have worked rather well, much better game now, but the dominance of Dublin has overshadowed that.
The 02 and 2011 All Ireland’s were in Eir sport, hurling was a far better watch in those years than now unfortunately.
To compare it to other sports, watching it used to be a bit like watching a big heavyweight fight, you couldn’t take your eyes off it or there was a good chance of missing something significant. Now I think that tension has gone from most games, you could have a chat with someone, look at stuff on your phone, and not really worry that much about it.
Hurling hit a sweet spot around 2010 where players were exceptionally skilful and coached but not a physically powerful as now. We've entered a different phase with a settling in period where big powerful men using the ball really well is a new phenomenon and its needs time to come good. Today was a great example of where we're heading.
You mention heavyweight boxing and whilst that may be box office it ignores the fact that the best fights were always in the light and middle weights where skill was far more essential. The same is true of hurling. The skill we see now would blow away teams from 15years ago.1 -
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There was a bit of ground hurling in the 02 final which was on Eir tonight. Nowadays when there’s a stalemate on the ground you just get a ruck, no one ever pulls on it, because given the ease in getting scores, possession totally trumps territory. You can’t risk pulling on it cos possession could be lost. The fact that there are heaps of rucks is an unfortunate side effect.0
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- Increase weight of the sliothar by 33%.
- Remove sin bin, instead have a rule to give a penalty for pulls down within 30 yards of the goal.
- Where the hand pass comes from the ball released from the hand, the receiving player can’t catch it. All other forms of passing are ok.
- 40 seconds to take a dead ball
- 6 subs allowed, but no more than 4 a half
- No subs allowed after time moves into injury time
- Reduce and standardize the size of the bás. Any player found in breach received an immediate 2 match ban.
Worth trying out I reckon.
This is a great post, if only two of the proposals were introduced; the size of the bas and the weight of the ball; hurling would be in a much better position.2 -
Sunny Disposition wrote: »There was a bit of ground hurling in the 02 final which was on Eir tonight. Nowadays when there’s a stalemate on the ground you just get a ruck, no one ever pulls on it, because given the ease in getting scores, possession totally trumps territory. You can’t risk pulling on it cos possession could be lost. The fact that there are heaps of rucks is an unfortunate side effect.
And why would anyone pull on it when you know the outcome is negative. Its no longer a game driven by pure wild passion. Its a lot more considered and no amount of rule changes will change that.1 -
[QUOTE=threeball;117362457. The skill we see now would blow away teams from 15years ago.[/QUOTE]
So you reckon Kilkenny 2006/07 would be destroyed by the average county team now?1 -
And why would anyone pull on it when you know the outcome is negative. Its no longer a game driven by pure wild passion. Its a lot more considered and no amount of rule changes will change that.[/quote
Not so long ago it wasn’t likely to be negative, because territory was important. Now with the changed flight of the ball it isn’t really, it’s all about possession, hence no ground hurling and a lot of rucks. But this is something that a change in the ball can improve as it would make the play ore free flowing.
I don’t think you really thought about the post you replied to, you missed the point.0 -
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Scoring a point is not anything to get excited by anymore, not when there are going to be 60 points scored in a match, The risk of going for a goal is not worth it either,
3 things that would help are to enforce the steps rule, change the ball so that it doesn't travel so far and award a free for any handpass where you cannot see clear separation between the ball and hand
I would like to see a trial in next year's league for a 4 point goal0 -
So you reckon Kilkenny 2006/07 would be destroyed by the average county team now?
Playing those tactics against a team like Limerick now would play into their hands. No doubt KK had the superior hurlers but a system like that will negate how good the opposition are. Plus they're bigger and physically fitter. That should never be underestimated.0 -
Sunny Disposition wrote: »And why would anyone pull on it when you know the outcome is negative. Its no longer a game driven by pure wild passion. Its a lot more considered and no amount of rule changes will change that.[/quote
Not so long ago it wasn’t likely to be negative, because territory was important. Now with the changed flight of the ball it isn’t really, it’s all about possession, hence no ground hurling and a lot of rucks. But this is something that a change in the ball can improve as it would make the play ore free flowing.
I don’t think you really thought about the post you replied to, you missed the point.
No i think you're just posting from a nostalgic viewpoint. The flight of the ball from 2011 to now hasn't changed. It probably hasn't changed since 2002. What has changed is attitude to possession and use of it. To be honest whilst hurling in 2002 was great to watch the use of the ball was nonsensical. How it survived so long without change is a bigger mystery1 -
- Increase weight of the sliothar by 33%.
- Remove sin bin, instead have a rule to give a penalty for pulls down within 30 yards of the goal.
- Where the hand pass comes from the ball released from the hand, the receiving player can’t catch it. All other forms of passing are ok.
- 40 seconds to take a dead ball
- 6 subs allowed, but no more than 4 a half
- No subs allowed after time moves into injury time
- Reduce and standardize the size of the bás. Any player found in breach received an immediate 2 match ban.
Worth trying out I reckon.
I like that idea.1 -
Sunny Disposition wrote: »
No i think you're just posting from a nostalgic viewpoint. The flight of the ball from 2011 to now hasn't changed. It probably hasn't changed since 2002. What has changed is attitude to possession and use of it. To be honest whilst hurling in 2002 was great to watch the use of the ball was nonsensical. How it survived so long without change is a bigger mystery
What has change hugely also is that the ball is travelling 20% farther. A score from a 100 meters is commonplace, 20 years ago a score from 80 meters was more unusual. If the ball didn't travel as far, you would have far more balls landing in the vicinity of the goals, creating more excitement0 -
Hurling hit a sweet spot around 2010 where players were exceptionally skilful and coached but not a physically powerful as now. We've entered a different phase with a settling in period where big powerful men using the ball really well is a new phenomenon and its needs time to come good. Today was a great example of where we're heading.
You mention heavyweight boxing and whilst that may be box office it ignores the fact that the best fights were always in the light and middle weights where skill was far more essential. The same is true of hurling. The skill we see now would blow away teams from 15years ago.
The best fights have not always been outside of the heavyweight division, that’s not true. There have been loads of great heavyweight fights. The first White-Chisora fight would be one that would be hard replicate at any other division and was in many people’s opinion the best fight of that year. Skill is not less important at heavyweight either, look at Fury.
Anyway, the comparison is true for boxing in general, across weight divisions. It’s a little more applicable at heavyweight because of the power, but any fight one watches has to be watched all the way through or you’ll at least run a major risk of missing something significant.
The same used to be true of hurling, but that’s gone to a certain extent. More like watching basketball or soccer now, you’ll probably miss nothing of note or nothing that won’t be repeated moments later.
As a spectacle it is far worse than it was, but a few close games over a few years are enough to convince a fairly weak media that the Emperor is not naked.
But the era of hurling snobbery is almost over, maybe forever.
As an aside, the amount of spoofing done about hurling now surely exceeds that in any other sport. Heard people in the radio today saying Cork-Limerick was a great game. It definitely wasn’t, it was over as a contest long before the end.
There is a way back from this malaise, but it needs to be faced up to.1 -
Sunny Disposition wrote: »This is a great post, if only two of the proposals were introduced; the size of the bas and the weight of the ball; hurling would be in a much better position.
Even if it made no changes to the outcome of games and I dont think a smaller bas will change much it is crazy that there is not strict regulation of playing equipment. You would think that would be normal practice in any sport1 -
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breezy1985 wrote: »Even if it made no changes to the outcome of games and I dont think a smaller bas will change much it is crazy that there is not strict regulation of playing equipment. You would think that would be normal practice in any sport
I think there is a rule, but it’s never enforced. Very interesting when you see old games, the bas was way smaller even in the noughties. Having a fella who could point most 65s used to be a big asset to teams, even at inter county.1 -
Sunny Disposition wrote: »
No i think you're just posting from a nostalgic viewpoint. The flight of the ball from 2011 to now hasn't changed. It probably hasn't changed since 2002. What has changed is attitude to possession and use of it. To be honest whilst hurling in 2002 was great to watch the use of the ball was nonsensical. How it survived so long without change is a bigger mystery
It absolutely has changed.
A club in Clare brought a motion to their convention a few years ago, looking to increase the weight. A report was prepared on the motion but it found the weight on its own wasn’t the issue, it’s the stuff in the core of the ball, which was changed and means the ball travels faster and further now. The ball has actually become marginally heavier but you wouldn’t know it because of how it travels now.
The reason the attitude to possession has changed is because of this and the change in hurleys, territory is nowhere near as important anymore because the scoring zone is now massive. Possession is all that really matters. Which is ruining the game.0 -
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Playing those tactics against a team like Limerick now would play into their hands. No doubt KK had the superior hurlers but a system like that will negate how good the opposition are. Plus they're bigger and physically fitter. That should never be underestimated.
How had Kilkenny superior hurlers? You already said the skill levels of today would blow away teams of 15 years ago.0 -
Hang on, there's been numerous references to sliothars being much heavier in the past and ground hurling which hasn't been a factor in the game since the mid eighties so no its not me bringing it up. The game is evolving, its in a good place apart from the rules that aren't enforced. That's where the conversation should start, not bringing in new rules.
"The bas of a hurley at its widest point shall not be more than 13cm"
Here's the Tipp team of 2001 - no frying pan sized hurleys there:
There isn't a single hurley in the country that meets that definition. That's one of the biggest issues. The big bas is much more forgiving for a first touch. It has a much bigger sweet spot which combined with the lighter sliotar with the shaved down rim makes points from 90 metres commonplace. It facilitates a game where the ball is carried rather than propelled. Hurling now is essentially a different sport than the game of the 90s. Senior players, men of 6 foot 2 are now using 32" or 34" hurleys - this would have been the size associated with 15 year olds in the past. This has had a significant impact on the amount of ground hurling - that and the obsession with tactics, retaining possession and elimination of risk.New rules aren't needed here - just apply the current rules! Hurling at it's essence was a chaotic sport, littered with man on man clashes, excitement the norm, rather than the exception. Watching a top level game was exhausting, never mind play it. Hurling, unlike Gaelic football, was also a game where you didn't have to be 6 foot plus to make the grade
While hurling is still a game laced with high skill levels - hooks, blocks fantastic scores, etc.The players' fitness levels and physical conditioning have never been greater and the dedication of the players is exemplary. The constant scrums and rucks are a blight on the game as is the spare hand tackle. I don't believe teams should be regularly scoring 30 points in a game. Even the much celebrated points from line balls are becoming so commonplace and they'll be the expectation going forward.
Hurling is still an amazing game but the GAA need to decide what they want it to be - a high scoring shootout where teams play the ball up the field o
in a series of short passes (almost rugby league like) until the player reaches the "scoring zone" (which these days is probably his own half back line) and takes their shot? Do they which the determining factor in which team wins is the relative accuracy of the freetakers and the overall level of wides? Do they want to continually sanitise and productise the sport or can they see any way where they can marry the high skill and fitness levels of today's elite players and return to the traditional elements of hurling which involved uncertainty, "mano a mano" clashes, controversy and still had great skill.
Hurling is still a great sport to watch but I think that there is an increasing belief that the direction which is going is taking the sport away from some of the traditional (and tradition shouldn't be a dirty word) aspects and we may be approaching a crossroads where the GAA will need to decide what they want from our national game0 -
As mentioned earlier, I definitely enjoyed it; if refs blow for all fouls, players will be less prone to foul and give away a 100% score from almost anywhere
58 scores in a 70 minute match suggests scoring is too easy, irrespective of the numbers of frees. Ball was probably in play no more than 45 minutes. With nearly 60 scores that tell you there was little on no contest for possession.
One i the most memorable games I can think off was the 97 quarter final between Kilkenny and Galway - 4-15 to 3 -16. Widely regarded as a very high scoring game at the time. With 20 more scores each score is devalued and the game becomes basketball, essentially an accuracy competition.0 -
https://www.gaa.ie/api/pdfs/image/upload/i4xicuecdjcyj3bgb52f.pdf
"The bas of a hurley at its widest point shall not be more than 13cm"
Here's the Tipp team of 2001 - no frying pan sized hurleys there:
There isn't a single hurley in the country that meets that definition. That's one of the biggest issues. The big bas is much more forgiving for a first touch. It has a much bigger sweet spot which combined with the lighter sliotar with the shaved down rim makes points from 90 metres commonplace. It facilitates a game where the ball is carried rather than propelled. Hurling now is essentially a different sport than the game of the 90s. Senior players, men of 6 foot 2 are now using 32" or 34" hurleys - this would have been the size associated with 15 year olds in the past. This has had a significant impact on the amount of ground hurling - that and the obsession with tactics, retaining possession and elimination of risk.New rules aren't needed here - just apply the current rules! Hurling at it's essence was a chaotic sport, littered with man on man clashes, excitement the norm, rather than the exception. Watching a top level game was exhausting, never mind play it. Hurling, unlike Gaelic football, was also a game where you didn't have to be 6 foot plus to make the grade
While hurling is still a game laced with high skill levels - hooks, blocks fantastic scores, etc.The players' fitness levels and physical conditioning have never been greater and the dedication of the players is exemplary. The constant scrums and rucks are a blight on the game as is the spare hand tackle. I don't believe teams should be regularly scoring 30 points in a game. Even the much celebrated points from line balls are becoming so commonplace and they'll be the expectation going forward.
Hurling is still an amazing game but the GAA need to decide what they want it to be - a high scoring shootout where teams play the ball up the field o
in a series of short passes (almost rugby league like) until the player reaches the "scoring zone" (which these days is probably his own half back line) and takes their shot? Do they which the determining factor in which team wins is the relative accuracy of the freetakers and the overall level of wides? Do they want to continually sanitise and productise the sport or can they see any way where they can marry the high skill and fitness levels of today's elite players and return to the traditional elements of hurling which involved uncertainty, "mano a mano" clashes, controversy and still had great skill.
Hurling is still a great sport to watch but I think that there is an increasing belief that the direction which is going is taking the sport away from some of the traditional (and tradition shouldn't be a dirty word) aspects and we may be approaching a crossroads where the GAA will need to decide what they want from our national game
A lot of this is fair enough but your point that there's no need for new rules just application of the existing ones doesn't really show how many of the issues you mention will be addressed. It does seem like a lot of it needs some rules involvement.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »
58 scores in a 70 minute match suggests scoring is too easy, irrespective of the numbers of frees. Ball was probably in play no more than 45 minutes. With nearly 60 scores that tell you there was little on no contest for possession.
That's the fundamental problem or at least the fundamental symptom (too easy to score) . Listened to Galway-Waterford yesterday and (this could be any match) and it sounded like the puckouts were assists. Every puckout it seemed brought a score. The broader problem is that it creates big gaps between teams which by all normal observation are fairly evenly matched when even a small advantage in possession is reflected in an avalanche of scores.
Unfortunately when you point out this you'll be told irrelevant stuff about fitness and the strength of players' wrists etc.
The point is the game as a spectacle is suffering as there is less and less action in between scores. It is just too easy to score or at least attempt a score if you are in space, and despite all the rucks and crowding of players trying to rise the ball at times, a player shooting for goal is very often in acres of space.
It's a difficult conversation as some people talk about fitness of players as if that's an end or spectacle in itself. If that were the case marathon running would be the biggest spectator sport in the world. The GAA world needs to deal with this obsessional stuff and move on to a mature conversation.
You won't turn on the French Open Tennis and be bombarded by people telling you how amazingly fit the players are. It's a given in most sports. It's not the aspect that makes it entertaining. Proper contests for possession, doubts about the eventual outcome of the game, and the sense that scores are earned rather than just simply being a nearly inevitable follow-on from having the puckout are all part of that I would think. Not the knowledge of how much some guy's bench press improved in UL.
It's slightly ironic that it's often the people who get on their high horse about the evils of "tradition" are often the same people who abhor the idea of changing anything about the game.0 -
https://www.gaa.ie/api/pdfs/image/upload/i4xicuecdjcyj3bgb52f.pdf
"The bas of a hurley at its widest point shall not be more than 13cm"
Here's the Tipp team of 2001 - no frying pan sized hurleys there:
There isn't a single hurley in the country that meets that definition. That's one of the biggest issues. The big bas is much more forgiving for a first touch. It has a much bigger sweet spot which combined with the lighter sliotar with the shaved down rim makes points from 90 metres commonplace. It facilitates a game where the ball is carried rather than propelled. Hurling now is essentially a different sport than the game of the 90s. Senior players, men of 6 foot 2 are now using 32" or 34" hurleys - this would have been the size associated with 15 year olds in the past. This has had a significant impact on the amount of ground hurling - that and the obsession with tactics, retaining possession and elimination of risk.New rules aren't needed here - just apply the current rules! Hurling at it's essence was a chaotic sport, littered with man on man clashes, excitement the norm, rather than the exception. Watching a top level game was exhausting, never mind play it. Hurling, unlike Gaelic football, was also a game where you didn't have to be 6 foot plus to make the grade
While hurling is still a game laced with high skill levels - hooks, blocks fantastic scores, etc.The players' fitness levels and physical conditioning have never been greater and the dedication of the players is exemplary. The constant scrums and rucks are a blight on the game as is the spare hand tackle. I don't believe teams should be regularly scoring 30 points in a game. Even the much celebrated points from line balls are becoming so commonplace and they'll be the expectation going forward.
Hurling is still an amazing game but the GAA need to decide what they want it to be - a high scoring shootout where teams play the ball up the field o
in a series of short passes (almost rugby league like) until the player reaches the "scoring zone" (which these days is probably his own half back line) and takes their shot? Do they which the determining factor in which team wins is the relative accuracy of the freetakers and the overall level of wides? Do they want to continually sanitise and productise the sport or can they see any way where they can marry the high skill and fitness levels of today's elite players and return to the traditional elements of hurling which involved uncertainty, "mano a mano" clashes, controversy and still had great skill.
Hurling is still a great sport to watch but I think that there is an increasing belief that the direction which is going is taking the sport away from some of the traditional (and tradition shouldn't be a dirty word) aspects and we may be approaching a crossroads where the GAA will need to decide what they want from our national game
For the record I have no issue with changing the core of the ball or with regulating bas size, I've had numerous posts on boards about that subject. I do however object to rule changes trying to curb the evolution of the game.
A heavier sliothar is dangerous and shouldn't be considered but a less "bouncy" core is acceptable and the bás is just another rule thats ignored which is the issue in the first place.0 -
How had Kilkenny superior hurlers? You already said the skill levels of today would blow away teams of 15 years ago.
Kilkenny had the players more than capable of playing the game like its played now given the chance but playing the long ball into a back 7 now is counter productive. Anyone that goes long consistently now is generally conceding at least 50% of those puckouts. Its not a platform from which to generate a win.0 -
Just one query on this - whats the implications of increasing the weight of the sliotar. I coach at underage - am no expert on the game, but I do have to implement any new rules as they come in - and I'd just wonder about the transition for kids when they move to the heavier ball, as they currently do at around age 14 I think.
How would that be for catching for example in terms of impact.
As an aside - a lot of people talk about GAA as if it only exists in the little prism of the top 6 championship teams. In fact thats just a tiny part of it, and I'd question whether any rules should be changed because of tactics issues that have emerged with just that tiny slice of the playing population.
Is it too much to ask that managers find a way to counter it?2 -
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As an aside - a lot of people talk about GAA as if it only exists in the little prism of the top 6 championship teams. In fact thats just a tiny part of it, and I'd question whether any rules should be changed because of tactics issues that have emerged with just that tiny slice of the playing population.
Is it too much to ask that managers find a way to counter it?
Sometimes, yes, it is not possible to deal with issues which emerge through managers finding a way to counter it. Hence, the sin bin and black card solutions in the GAA, one player in goal for penalties etc. It's okay to change.
And realistically it's always the best teams and players which drive rule changes and trends. With due respect to the Naomh Mearnóg or Dicksboro under 12s, they are not really in a position to be influencers, and given that many will drop out of the game early anyway it's maybe just as well.
What you say is superficially attractive as it makes an argument for the 'small guy' but doesn't stack up unfortunately.0
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