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United Ireland Poll - please vote

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    #4022
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,782 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    schmittel wrote: »
    Nobody is going to object to unionists waving the red hand anywhere in the country any more than they object to Munster flag flying. Similarly I doubt we’ll pass laws banning them painting symbols and murals on the sides of their houses. Let them do as they please, as long as it’s within the law, and the laws are the same for everybody.

    Modern Ireland is a pretty tolerant and inclusive society overall. We don’t need to go the extra mile for unionists.


    Give them time to grieve and to reflect on the ruling from today's court case. Issue of flags etc might be too much for them to take so soon.


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    #4023
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,647 ✭✭✭eire4


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    No. The flag is the flag until there an agreement between people to change it. As I said, the tail will not wag the dog in a United Ireland.

    I suspect that unionists would rather have nailed-down rights on flags and symbols they subscribe to in the northeast of the country.

    For me personally I have always preferred the 4 provinces flag and its what I fly outside my house most of the year. I go with the tricolour for March for instance. But I highly doubt we would change the flag after reunification. To do that I think it would only be ok only if a majority agreed with changing the flag and that is not happening I would think. I have never been a big fan of our national anthem either. Just never found it very uplifting or inspiring. But again it should only be changed if a majority agree it should.

    Unionists should certainly be listened to and other then the extremist's their concerns taken into consideration in the reunification process but as you say the tail will not and it should not wag the dog when it comes to Irish reunification.


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    #4024
    ineedeuro
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 989 ✭✭✭ineedeuro


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    That's just one of the opinions that will be around the table. You can't exclude people just because you disagree with their opinion. Well obviously, you can exclude as people have been excluded in NI and here, but you shouldn't do it if they are happy to make democratic decisions after discussion.

    Really? you spend every day trying to exclude every opinion apart from your own from the conversation. You are right and everyone else is wrong, if they don't admit you are right cue trying to ridicule them. Look at the last few days of posting. Some debate?

    This whole thread is confirmation Ireland will never be "United", still too much hate. Some people just want a "United Ireland" so you can divide the exclude huge section of the population both North & South of the border. A "United Ireland" at this moment in time based on this thread would end up with a worse situation than in Northern Ireland in the 70's

    Some achievement.


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    #4025
    ineedeuro
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 989 ✭✭✭ineedeuro


    eire4 wrote: »
    For me personally I have always preferred the 4 provinces flag and its what I fly outside my house most of the year. I go with the tricolour for March for instance. But I highly doubt we would change the flag after reunification. To do that I think it would only be ok only if a majority agreed with changing the flag and that is not happening I would think. I have never been a big fan of our national anthem either. Just never found it very uplifting or inspiring. But again it should only be changed if a majority agree it should.

    Unionists should certainly be listened to and other then the extremist's their concerns taken into consideration in the reunification process but as you say the tail will not and it should not wag the dog when it comes to Irish reunification.

    If you don't want to exclude certain sections of the community from day 1 the Irish flag goes. So does the national anthem. Others as well.

    It's not a case of the majority, it is a United Ireland, a new Ireland. We are joining loads of different communities under one flag and that will have to be a new one.


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    #4026
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,641 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ineedeuro wrote: »
    Really? you spend every day trying to exclude every opinion apart from your own from the conversation. You are right and everyone else is wrong, if they don't admit you are right cue trying to ridicule them. Look at the last few days of posting. Some debate?

    No problem admitting to taking part in robust debate. But debate it is.
    This whole thread is confirmation Ireland will never be "United", still too much hate. Some people just want a "United Ireland" so you can divide the exclude huge section of the population both North & South of the border. A "United Ireland" at this moment in time based on this thread would end up with a worse situation than in Northern Ireland in the 70's

    Some achievement.

    NI ended up in the situation it was in the 70's because of exclusion. It is fairly typical you would ignore those who were excluded in defence of the decades long excluders.
    Belligerent Unionism and partitionism needs to be dealt with robustly, there is no place for it in a modern inclusive society.
    The penny has dropped in Unionism and we are seeing a move away from the belligerents to the more moderate UUP and Alliance. They have learned the lesson nationalists learned with the GFA, adherence to democratic principles moves you forward, not backwards, which is the way the DUP are going.


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    #4027
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    ineedeuro wrote: »
    If you don't want to exclude certain sections of the community from day 1 the Irish flag goes. So does the national anthem. Others as well.

    So now 'certain sections' of the unionist community who just voted against a United Ireland and lost will be demanding the abolition of the flag, the anthem, and whatever else they don't like the look of?

    Lol, no.


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    #4028
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,641 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ineedeuro wrote: »
    If you don't want to exclude certain sections of the community from day 1 the Irish flag goes. So does the national anthem. Others as well.

    It's not a case of the majority, it is a United Ireland, a new Ireland. We are joining loads of different communities under one flag and that will have to be a new one.

    If the DUP ask for the Union Jack to be included on the new flag as it is in some former colonies would you be happy with that?


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    #4029
    ineedeuro
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 989 ✭✭✭ineedeuro


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    So now 'certain sections' of the unionist community who just voted against a United Ireland and lost will be demanding the abolition of the flag, the anthem, and whatever else they don't like the look of?

    Lol, no.

    Yes. If anyone thinks a United Ireland starts with the Irish flag they need to wake up. Even the Sinn Fein lady who hadn't a clue could tell they would need to change it.

    This "United Ireland" doesn't seem very united based on your posting, how do you think it will work?


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    #4030
    ineedeuro
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 989 ✭✭✭ineedeuro


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    If the DUP ask for the Union Jack to be included on the new flag as it is in some former colonies would you be happy with that?

    The Union Jack and Tri Colour are part of old Ireland. A new United Ireland has a new flag.


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    #4031
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,831 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    So now 'certain sections' of the unionist community who just voted against a United Ireland and lost will be demanding the abolition of the flag, the anthem, and whatever else they don't like the look of?

    Lol, no.

    What I am concerned about is not the idea that unionists after a YES border poll will start making demands like this.

    But that in order to increase the chances of a YES vote, all sorts of commitments are made to unionists before the border poll.

    Some of the appeasers on here think that promising to change our flag, anthem etc, there is even chat about changing the name of the country, would be worth it to ensure a YES vote in the 6.


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    #4032
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,641 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ineedeuro wrote: »
    Yes. If anyone thinks a United Ireland starts with the Irish flag they need to wake up. Even the Sinn Fein lady who hadn't a clue could tell they would need to change it.

    This "United Ireland" doesn't seem very united based on your posting, how do you think it will work?

    Did somebody just get upset about 'ridicule' :):):)

    innedeuro, you have just proven that you can't even live in the state we have in a 'united' way based on your previous post. :):) That's called 'hoist by your own petard' I think.


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    #4033
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,641 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ineedeuro wrote: »
    The Union Jack and Tri Colour are part of old Ireland. A new United Ireland has a new flag.

    But if they ask, which I think is a bolt on certainty that some will, what will be your answer?


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    #4034
    ineedeuro
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 989 ✭✭✭ineedeuro


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    But if they ask, which I think is a bolt on certainty that some will, what will be your answer?
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Did somebody just get upset about 'ridicule' :):):)

    innedeuro, you have just proven that you can't even live in the state we have in a 'united' way based on your previous post. :):) That's called 'hoist by your own petard' I think.

    So I have a different opinion and off you start, true to form, trying to ridicule the poster. No thanks.


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    #4035
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,641 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ineedeuro wrote: »
    So I have a different opinion and off you start, true to form, trying to ridicule the poster. No thanks.

    You ridiculed somebody after having a rant about ridicule. Gas.

    Yes, I am laughing at you proving you are just as guilty as the people you accuse...sorry.


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    #4036
    PeaSea
    Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭PeaSea


    Most unionists dont actually know that the orange in the flag represents them. They are more likely to call it "green white and gold". Education on this point would be an eye-opening starter.


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    #4037
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,348 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    PeaSea wrote: »
    Most unionists dont actually know that the orange in the flag represents them. They are more likely to call it "green white and gold". Education on this point would be an eye-opening starter.

    Doesn't matter, the flag has become a symbol of terrorism. The way it was misappropriated by SF/IRA was a disgrace.

    The idea of the flag signifying peace between green and orange is a nice ideal, but the actual practical use of the flag in Northern Ireland has only created division. No amount of "education" will take away from the abuse of the flag by SF/IRA.


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    #4038
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,348 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »

    NI ended up in the situation it was in the 70's because of exclusion.



    eire4 wrote: »
    But I highly doubt we would change the flag after reunification. To do that I think it would only be ok only if a majority agreed with changing the flag and that is not happening I would think. I have never been a big fan of our national anthem either. Just never found it very uplifting or inspiring. But again it should only be changed if a majority agree it should.

    Unionists should certainly be listened to and other then the extremist's their concerns taken into consideration in the reunification process but as you say the tail will not and it should not wag the dog when it comes to Irish reunification.

    This is why the SF/republican view of a united Ireland is so outdated. They are seeking to repeat the mistakes of the past in some sort of revenge vendetta.


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    #4039
    droidman123
    Registered Users Posts: 5,454 ✭✭✭droidman123


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Doesn't matter, the flag has become a symbol of terrorism. The way it was misappropriated by SF/IRA was a disgrace.

    The idea of the flag signifying peace between green and orange is a nice ideal, but the actual practical use of the flag in Northern Ireland has only created division. No amount of "education" will take away from the abuse of the flag by SF/IRA.

    By that logic the union flag is a symbol of world wide terrorism considering the atrocities committed under it.


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    #4040
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,348 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    droidman123 wrote: »
    By that logic the union flag is a symbol of world wide terrorism considering the atrocities committed under it.

    In what way was the Union Jack misappropriated by non-State actors who then engaged in terrorist activities?

    Actually, scratch that, no point in going down another whataboutery route following criticism of SF/IRA.


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    #4041
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,641 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    In what way was the Union Jack misappropriated by non-State actors who then engaged in terrorist activities?

    Actually, scratch that, no point in going down another whataboutery route following criticism of SF/IRA.

    Why aren't you lobbying for a change now?

    Hard to believe that you think there is remotely any logic in your position.


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    #4042
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,348 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Why aren't you lobbying for a change now?

    Hard to believe that you think there is remotely any logic in your position.

    What??!!???

    The flag is an affront and an insult to the unionist population in Northern Ireland but I am not seeking to persuade them into a united Ireland at this point in time. I clearly referenced the use of the flag in Northern Ireland.
    the actual practical use of the flag in Northern Ireland has only created division

    I really wish you would stop the blatant misrepresentation of what others say.


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    #4043
    droidman123
    Registered Users Posts: 5,454 ✭✭✭droidman123


    blanch152 wrote: »
    In what way was the Union Jack misappropriated by non-State actors who then engaged in terrorist activities?

    Actually, scratch that, no point in going down another whataboutery route following criticism of SF/IRA.

    Ok so you dont agree that there were worldwide atrocities committed under the union flag?


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    #4044
    Granadino
    Registered Users Posts: 729 ✭✭✭Granadino


    blanch152 wrote: »
    In what way was the Union Jack misappropriated by non-State actors who then engaged in terrorist activities?

    Actually, scratch that, no point in going down another whataboutery route following criticism of SF/IRA.

    Try Kenya for a start if you don't want to look closer to home.

    Any united Ireland would need a new flag and a new anthem. That has to be a given.


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    #4045
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,348 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    droidman123 wrote: »
    Ok so you dont agree that there were worldwide atrocities committed under the union flag?

    I didn't address that issue, and I won't be addressing that issue, which has nothing to do with the point I made.

    The Irish flag has been misappropriated by non-State actors (SF/IRA) who then engaged in terrorist activities.

    You whatabouted the Union Jack. I am not aware of any incidents of the misappropriation of the Union Jack by non-State actors who then engaged in terrorist activities. If you are aware of such examples, please let me know.


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    #4046
    droidman123
    Registered Users Posts: 5,454 ✭✭✭droidman123


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I didn't address that issue, and I won't be addressing that issue, which has nothing to do with the point I made.

    The Irish flag has been misappropriated by non-State actors (SF/IRA) who then engaged in terrorist activities.

    You whatabouted the Union Jack. I am not aware of any incidents of the misappropriation of the Union Jack by non-State actors who then engaged in terrorist activities. If you are aware of such examples, please let me know.

    Ok so by your deflection i will take it that you dont agree


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    #4047
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,348 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    droidman123 wrote: »
    Ok so by your deflection i will take it that you dont agree

    I am not addressing an irrelevant whataboutery point. That doesn't mean I agree or disagree. If there is a relevant comparative example, I will address that, but I couched my position in particular limited terms that don't apply outside of that.


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    #4048
    Whatcar212
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭Whatcar212


    blanch152 wrote: »
    The flag is an affront and an insult to the unionist population in Northern Ireland

    So you are insulted on behalf of all unionists or are you just assuming you know what all unionists think?

    I know many unionists (pretty much all my unionists friends actually) who don't give a crap about the flag or the anthem or any of that.
    Those are token issues for those with extreme views.

    The normal people of NI are only concerned about their quality of life and how that is affect. The rest is just tokenism.


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    #4049
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    blanch152 wrote: »
    What??!!???

    The flag is an affront and an insult to the unionist population in Northern Ireland but I am not seeking to persuade them into a united Ireland at this point in time. I clearly referenced the use of the flag in Northern Ireland.



    I really wish you would stop the blatant misrepresentation of what others say.

    the union flag is an affront - I agree there


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    #4050
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I am not addressing an irrelevant whataboutery point. That doesn't mean I agree or disagree. If there is a relevant comparative example, I will address that, but I couched my position in particular limited terms that don't apply outside of that.

    a poster said you disagreed, and you come back with the amazing revelation that you dont agree or disagree. once again, blanch152 doesnt have an opinion - but yet likes to constantly state an opinion ... which turns into no opinion when under scrutiny


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    #4051
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,641 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I didn't address that issue, and I won't be addressing that issue, which has nothing to do with the point I made.

    The Irish flag has been misappropriated by non-State actors (SF/IRA) who then engaged in terrorist activities.

    You whatabouted the Union Jack. I am not aware of any incidents of the misappropriation of the Union Jack by non-State actors who then engaged in terrorist activities. If you are aware of such examples, please let me know.

    So why are you not lobbying to get rid of it now.

    If it is 'irredeemable', that is your logic.

    No need to mention the UJ, deal with your position on the flag.


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