BER Rating: F

03-07-2021 1:33am #1

I'm looking to get a better understanding of what exactly in day to day terms the BER rating means as I'm house hunting at the moment.

What should I expect from a house that has an F rating?

Dav010 · 03-07-2021 1:36am

That you would be warmer in a tent, but it could be worse, a G would be a tent with holes.

SupaCat95 · 03-07-2021 1:42am

Dav010 wrote: »

That you would be warmer in a tent.

That is assuming you have a grown sheet down.

G means that it has Zero insulation and is probably as warm as a haybarn.
F means it is water proof and will hold zero heat.
E means it will be a challenge to heat. (I grew up in a 1970s bungalow with an attached garage and Henderson up and over garage door.)

mickdw · 03-07-2021 1:45am

Well just to give idea, seai give indicated running costs for the various ratings.
They have a large house at 600 euro running cost per year for an A rating versus 9500 euro for an F.
Now, nobody spends 9500 heating the house so basically, you will be wearing layers in the f rated house with maybe sitting room heated all evening with bedrooms and other areas heated for short spells.

con747 · 03-07-2021 1:55am

Spend a night in your fridge in your underwear and you will know what an F rated BER is.

10pennymixup · 03-07-2021 8:45am

A low rating is not always an indicator of how poor the insulation in the property is.

If a BER assessor cannot see the insulation in walls or floors, then they have to consider it that there is none.

sydthebeat · 03-07-2021 8:50am

10pennymixup wrote: »

A low rating is not always an indicator of how poor the insulation in the property is.

If a BER assessor cannot see the insulation in walls or floors, then they have to consider it that there is none.

Not true.

The default u values of houses is dependent on the age.

For example a 1950s house would be considered to have no insulation under the floors as pretty much every house didn't, and no building regs were applicable

Whereas as 2003 House will be assumed to have insulation under the floors as it was a building reg requirement at that time.

Same with walls, though often its easier to see what's in a cavity wall when you look in the meter box

03-07-2021 8:53am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Not true.

The default u values of houses is dependent on the age.

For example a 1950s house would be considered to have no insulation under the floors as pretty much every house didn't, and no building regs were applicable

Whereas as 2003 House will be assumed to have insulation under the floors as it was a building reg requirement at that time.

Same with walls, though often its easier to see what's in a cavity wall when you look in the meter box

I know of a 50's house for sale that is rated F, even though the owner fully insulated it (walls and ceiling) but just has no paperwork.
I'm sure this isn't the only one.

sydthebeat · 03-07-2021 8:57am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I know of a 50's house for sale that is rated F, even though the owner fully insulated it (walls and ceiling) but just has no paperwork.
I'm sure this isn't the only one.

In order for the insulation to be included it either must be backed up by doc evidence (receipts, letter from supervising engineer etc) or it must be seen and measured... Which means holes would need to be opened up in all areas

Did the owner do this?

If not, how would the assessor know?

SEAI make the rules, assessors have to abide by these under threat of audit and penalty points

listermint · 03-07-2021 9:01am

sydthebeat wrote: »

In order for the insulation to be included it either must be backed up by doc evidence (receipts, letter from supervising engineer etc) or it must be seen and measured... Which means holes would need to be opened up in all areas

Did the owner do this?

If not, how would the assessor know?

SEAI make the rules, assessors have to abide by these under threat of audit and penalty points

Receipts, photographic installation evidence.

The BER system is tbh a bit of a farce and only gives a tick box Framework to work from. It's better than no framework. But anyone seriously relying on it as the sole indicator of comfort or running costs of a home hasn't a clue how it works or why .

In short no it's not a true Indicator of any home at all. Take it as an advisement. Not fact

sydthebeat · 03-07-2021 9:05am

listermint wrote: »

Receipts photographic insulation evidence.

The BER system is tbh a bit of a farce any only gives a tick box Framework to work from. It's better than no framework. But anyone seriously relying on it as the sole indicator of comfort or running costs of a home hasn't a clue how it works or why .

In short no it's not a true Indicator of any home at all. Take it as an advisement. Not fact

100% agreed.

The problem is its sold by SEAI as a measurement of how energy efficient a particular house is..... When in reality all it is a useful comparison tool when comparing like for like properties.

Its absolutely not an indication of how easy or hard it is to heat a specific house

Dayo93 · 03-07-2021 9:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

I know of a 50's house for sale that is rated F, even though the owner fully insulated it (walls and ceiling) but just has no paperwork.
I'm sure this isn't the only one.

Happened me , have no reciptes so any insulation added was not taken into consideration, offered to remove sockets to prove but ber guy didn't want to know

listermint · 03-07-2021 9:13am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I know of a 50's house for sale that is rated F, even though the owner fully insulated it (walls and ceiling) but just has no paperwork.
I'm sure this isn't the only one.

Mine has an E rating. I've self installed 200mm EPS foundation to top of cavity. Involved digging out around the bungalow. Had cavity pumped. Self installed 300 mm attic insulation. Self installed TVRs on all rads. LEDs throughout the house updated windows and all doors to composite. Brought windows out past outer leaf for thermal bridging and used air tightness measures all over the place .

It cost me circa 1000 to 1100 to heat last year in a 200 sq m bungalow. With a rating of E the rating came from the cavity wall pump pre EPS work .

Now does that rating reflect the level of comfort there is in the house ? No chance. Why did I go the self install route for EPS? Because no one I got would dig below or go to top of block and their quotes were the price of a new Golf.

I have all this stuff fully documented and at some point will pay for a new BER but this is our lifetime home and we've zero plans to sell it so it's not a necessity.

I'm sure there are other people who've had lots of work done to good level but the costs outweigh the evidence. I'm smart enough to have kept all of it documented . If the assessor doesn't take the evidence so be it. I will still have saved the price of two golfs on all the works and live in a low cost for size and really comfortable year round home

I'm not the norm fully understand that. But making a point that there are in sure other homes out there like this .

Might get an air tightness test next to see what further improvements can be made. All of this is for my comfort not that of anyone else so it makes sense to me . From coming from an A rated apartment that was ludicrously warm . My wife and I didn't want to lost the comfort. But frankly couldn't at the time afford the astronomical costs and they've only gone up dramatically. So self install was our chosen method.

Gael23 · 04-07-2021 11:32pm

You’ll need new windows, insulation in walls and attic, replace open fire with stove or gas unit at least.
The only issue I have with composite windows is they have to go to landfill at the end of their life

FileNotFound · 04-07-2021 11:40pm

whatnow! wrote: »

I'm looking to get a better understanding of what exactly in day to day terms the BER rating means as I'm house hunting at the moment.

What should I expect from a house that has an F rating?

Honeslty low ratings do mean when it's cold you will really know and wish you had better.

Then again a C in my house costs the same in bills to keep warm as my mates A rated new home. So I think once you get above C you are fine.

Mine was an E - aluminium windows, no insulation.

Internal slabbing, standard double glaze, few more bits. Now it's grand.

Double glaze and pump the walls if the cavity is right and you'll be grand. Some work in the attic to keep the heat in, spray on cost effective

04-07-2021 11:44pm

It means feck all in reality. We moved up 2 grades by changing our light bulbs to LED. :rolleyes:

Look at the house itself and you'll know.

04-07-2021 11:47pm

Gael23 wrote: »

The only issue I have with composite windows is they have to go to landfill at the end of their life

But even if that's the case, it's not like they only last 3 months. You'd get 20 years out of them, if not more.

My house has the cheapest double glazed pvc window you can get (house used to be owned by the council and they put them in). They were installed about 15 (maybe 20 actually) years ago and we recently replaced all rubber seals and hinges and they're good as new again.

Darc19 · 04-07-2021 11:49pm

Simply ask for the ber report and see what it says. Any decent estate agent will provide it.

Chances are that the light bulbs are old style, windows are single glazed and possibly electric heating.

It may not cost too much to bring it to 'C' rating. (10-15k) assuming it's a average sized house

Bass Reeves · 17-07-2021 10:23am

I did up an old farm house. 600 mm solid stone walls. I drylined inside, installed solar panels, new PVC windows, attic and floors insulated. The house got a D rating and i had receipts. However it costs nothing to heat. The stone walls were treated as block cavity walls. House should be C rated and hen only because i installed oil heating.

My own house was build in the 1990, rock wool in the cavity, insulated plaster board, insulated floor with 2'' of the highest quality wall insulation I could get at he time. At the end of it all I be lucky to get an E as i have no receipts from back then. Its just another box ticking excerise.

Yellow_Fern · 18-07-2021 1:02am

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117576634#Comment_117576634

Loads of old houses perform far better than expected, or far worse.

Emma2019 · 18-07-2021 4:39pm

My house is a G. It has the attic insulated, double glazing and warm boarding on the gable end but there were no receipts.

Ask the EA what the story is with windows, attic and was any insulation done. It'll tell you more than the report.

sydthebeat · 18-07-2021 10:01pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626196#Comment_117626196

the BER assessment is not a measure of specific performance... never was intended to be either. SEAI sold the public a pup

Ray Palmer · 19-07-2021 12:28pm

BER is very misleading and can be changed by replacing light bulbs. The rating system on walls is laughable. A 2 foot deep wall on a Georgian house is deemed to have less insulation qualities than a 80s house with cavity block and no insulation. It just isn't true and the accessors are not even sure what they are doing and just use a rule book. Better truly understanding how it works and talking to the surveyor

JimmyVik · 23-07-2021 9:39am

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117576655#Comment_117576655

Same with my parents house. When tested it was an E. We reckon we brought it up to C at least over the years.

Costs max of around €1200 to heat in a cold year. And thats with electricity (oil kept getting stolen so no more oil).

Had an assesor our at one point and he didnt want to know about the pumped cavity insulation or the totally automated heating and thermostats in each room. He did give bonus points for the LED bulbs though :)

Anyway we decided that we would wait and get another assessor out at sopme point but it would probably be the same story.

Samuel T. Cogley · 23-07-2021 1:01pm

The assessors vary hugely. Some will go out of their way to give you a good rating.

Buddy Bubs · 23-07-2021 1:33pm

I told a surveyor I needed a B3 or better to get lower mortgage rate, he said ah yeah that should be no problem Ill get that for you, I think the houses in your estate are all B3 anyway. This was before he saw the house.

I got a B2. He was here 15 mins max.

BER Rating: F

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