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annual leave being canceled

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  • 04-07-2021 11:58am
    #1
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭


    Can my employer cancel my annual leave that they had already signed of on?

    If so how much notice do they have to give?

    I am a permanent is that matters in any way.


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    #2
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    anonymous holiday wrote: »
    Can my employer cancel my annual leave that they had already signed of on?

    If so how much notice do they have to give?

    I am a permanent is that matters in any way.

    I should add the holiday's were signed off on 8 weeks ago and the work place policy states 1 months notice for applying for holidays.

    They contacted me Friday evening to say they need me now and my holidays are due to start next Friday.


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    #3
    dennyk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭dennyk


    Your employer can determine when you can take your leave (and conversely, when you can't), but per the Organisation of Working Time Act they must consult with you at least one month prior to the date the leave in question is set to commence (either to require you to take leave starting on a certain date or to cancel a previously approved scheduled period of leave). If your leave was already scheduled to commence next Friday, they would have had to consult you at least a month before that date to cancel that leave. Telling you a week before is in violation of the OWTA and you're under no obligation to accept their proposed change to your scheduled leave on that short notice. You could always contact the WRC for advice on the matter.


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    #4
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,305 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    anonymous holiday wrote: »
    I should add the holiday's were signed off on 8 weeks ago and the work place policy states 1 months notice for applying for holidays.

    They contacted me Friday evening to say they need me now and my holidays are due to start next Friday.


    And presumably they did not just randomly pick you out for cancellation, so what was the reason?


    You got a week's notice, are the any expenses for cancellation etc you need to be compensated for?


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    #5
    dennyk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭dennyk


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    You got a week's notice

    A week's notice is not sufficient, per the law; it must be one month.


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    #6
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    As per the other posts regarding minimum notice to cancel your leave, you should ask your employer if they are willing to refund you the costs of your holiday if they intend to break the law.


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    #7
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    dennyk wrote: »
    Your employer can determine when you can take your leave (and conversely, when you can't), but per the Organisation of Working Time Act they must consult with you at least one month prior to the date the leave in question is set to commence (either to require you to take leave starting on a certain date or to cancel a previously approved scheduled period of leave). If your leave was already scheduled to commence next Friday, they would have had to consult you at least a month before that date to cancel that leave. Telling you a week before is in violation of the OWTA and you're under no obligation to accept their proposed change to your scheduled leave on that short notice. You could always contact the WRC for advice on the matter.


    Thank you I emailed this to my manger and cc in the HR person and within minutes I got a phone call and an email reply apologizing saying there was mix up. I don't believe there was a mistake anyway thank you to those who also replied it is good to know these things and now it is something I can pass on to my colleagues if these mistakes happen to them.


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    #8
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,305 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    dennyk wrote: »
    A week's notice is not sufficient, per the law; it must be one month.

    Which is why I asked the reason... one hopes there is a critical issue.


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    #9
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,159 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Tell them you're going because they signed off on it as required and that you're going.

    Any issues around stalled work or idle resources is the fault of whoever signed off on your leave without fully considering what might be coming down the tracks. Poor management really.

    Enjoy your break.


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    #10
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,975 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Tell them you're going because they signed off on it as required and that you're going.

    Any issues around stalled work or idle resources is the fault of whoever signed off on your leave without fully considering what might be coming down the tracks. Poor management really.

    Enjoy your break.

    Follow this approach, and you'd best spend the break jobhunting.


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    #11
    bluelegend
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭bluelegend


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Follow this approach, and you'd best spend the break jobhunting.

    Sorry but that’s rubbish.


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    #12
    Oafley Jones
    Registered Users Posts: 6,495 ✭✭✭Oafley Jones


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Follow this approach, and you'd best spend the break jobhunting.

    Out of curiosity; why hasn’t this poster been banned for trolling. It’s just a constant stream of absolute nonsense from them. I’m convinced they’ve never actually held a job with any level of responsibility at all. It’s like they’ve learned everything about the workplace from watching hard nosed business characters on American TV.


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    #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 596 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Oafley Jones wrote: »
    Out of curiosity; why hasn’t this poster been banned for trolling. It’s just a constant stream of absolute nonsense from them. I’m convinced they’ve never actually held a job with any level of responsibility at all. It’s like they’ve learned everything about the workplace from watching hard nosed business characters on American TV.

    Because they're right.


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    #14
    Noo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Noo


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Follow this approach, and you'd best spend the break jobhunting.

    And the company best spend the break lawyering up for the unfair dismissal case.


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    #15
    Darc19
    Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    Noo wrote: »
    And the company best spend the break lawyering up for the unfair dismissal case.

    Remember, except in certain circumstances the only compensation from wrc is your loss of earnings and you must show that you made good effort for alternative employment.

    In the op case, the company is being ****ty and if it's a critical matter, they should discuss and explain and offer some form of monetary apology


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    #16
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,975 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Noo wrote: »
    And the company best spend the break lawyering up for the unfair dismissal case.

    Who said anything about dismissal?

    Lack of career opportunities isn't something you can sue for. Neither is refusing to approve leave more than a month in advance. Or just plain not being trusted by management. Or being assigned to the most boring tasks all the time.
    Etc.

    The OP may win a war by taking the leave anyways. But any hope of a satisfying career there would be over.


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    #17
    RossieMan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,766 ✭✭✭RossieMan


    Mrs OBumble wrote:
    The OP may win a war by taking the leave anyways. But any hope of a satisfying career there would be over.

    They've a holiday booked for well over a month you'd assume. Employer comes back a week before holidays and tells them they are cancelling the holidays as they are needed.
    You want the employee to cancel holiday and go to work? Am I right?

    Are you absolutely mental? No wonder this country is in such a mess.

    **** the job. If this is the way they treat employees you're better off somewhere else OP.
    Ignore the "advise" above. Some people seem to be above the ban hammer here, don't ever see any decent answers in any thread.


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    #18
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It’s the same as every similar thread, acting the contrarian. Or worse, someone it would be an absolute nightmare to work with/for.


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    #19
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,305 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Tell them you're going because they signed off on it as required and that you're going.

    Any issues around stalled work or idle resources is the fault of whoever signed off on your leave without fully considering what might be coming down the tracks. Poor management really.

    Enjoy your break.

    We have no idea why the holidays were cancelled yet... there could have been a fatal accident involving the planned cover for the OP or any other number of reason which might make them look a right a**hole and shorten their career prospects.


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    #20
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Who said anything about dismissal?

    Lack of career opportunities isn't something you can sue for. Neither is refusing to approve leave more than a month in advance. Or just plain not being trusted by management. Or being assigned to the most boring tasks all the time.
    Etc.

    The OP may win a war by taking the leave anyways. But any hope of a satisfying career there would be over.

    I agree fully with your advice. Any reputable company will only cancel leave with very good cause. Assuming that this is the case, refusing to cooperate would be remembered.

    I've had to cancel leave twice, in over 20 years. Wasn't nice, but the employees understood. In both cases I discussed it with the employee and agreed reasonable costs to be reimbursed. (Cost of rescheduling holidays, including cancellation fees.)

    As a side note I've also had leave cancelled, at less than a weeks notice. It wasn't nice and Wifey WAS NOT HAPPY. However, it was urgent and the request was reasonable, in the circumstances. It didn't enter my mind to refuse.


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    #21
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,305 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    RossieMan wrote: »
    Employer comes back a week before holidays and tells them they are cancelling the holidays as they are needed.

    Do you seriously think that the average manager or employer are in the habit of cancelling people's holidays at the last minute to mess them about?

    If the holidays were signed off on some time ago, it's reasonable to assume that management had planned for the absence and something went wrong. Incompetence on the part of management, a serious incident or something else... we have yet to hear the reason given.


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    #22
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,632 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Do you seriously think that the average manager or employer are in the habit of cancelling people's holidays at the last minute to mess them about?

    If the holidays were signed off on some time ago, it's reasonable to assume that management had planned for the absence and something went wrong. Incompetence on the part of management, a serious incident or something else... we have yet to hear the reason given.

    I would not totally accept that. Now I like to know what size company and how many people working there. If leave was approved a month+ in advance the replacement staff members would have needed to have passed away or be seriously ill and that no manager or owner manager could replace OP.

    There is no way that a company unless the similar circumstances as above were in place would sack a worker if he stood up for his entitlement.

    Under the working directive's a permanent worker is entitled to two weeks leave during the summer season. This is June to August inclusive. As well if OP has family and holiday arrangements were in place his partner may not be able to change there holidays.

    It's untrue to say in an unfair dismissal case that the WRC would only compensate for loss of wages in a case like this. They would also compensate for loss of potential future earnings. This would be a 40-100k compensation case not an 5-10k one.

    However it would dependant on senario above not being after happening

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #23
    RossieMan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,766 ✭✭✭RossieMan


    Jim2007 wrote:
    Do you seriously think that the average manager or employer are in the habit of cancelling people's holidays at the last minute to mess them about?


    No I don't. But reasonable cover should be able to be sought in a week rather than cancelling holidays.

    As has been said, more information is definitely required. It's not a black and white case.


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    #24
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,975 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    I
    Under the working directive's a permanent worker is entitled to two weeks leave during the summer season.

    Side question: can you link to something saying that the 2-weeks entitlement is specifically in the summer season? I always thought it was year-round.


    Back on topic: the OP can either put on big-boy pants and negotiate, or they can throw their toys and insist on going on leave. And if there's a cash cost (lost deposits etc) I 100% expect the employer to cover that,and likely a little more.

    But overall, one option is going to be far more career enhancing than the other.

    Employee privacy rules mean that management possibly cannot tell you details of why your own leave is cancelled (cover person may be sick or have a sick family member etc). Informal networking may provide you with information about these - or in our new WFH world, it may not.


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    #25
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,575 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Oafley Jones wrote: »
    Out of curiosity; why hasn’t this poster been banned for trolling. It’s just a constant stream of absolute nonsense from them. I’m convinced they’ve never actually held a job with any level of responsibility at all. It’s like they’ve learned everything about the workplace from watching hard nosed business characters on American TV.

    That poster is 100% correct.
    I’ve worked in a number of companies Amy supervisor and manager level amd an employee displaying that attitude would be watched tight, I’ve been instructed on a few occasions to manage such employees out the door, and in some instances I’ve done it too.

    I smile to myself when people give the advice to go back to your employer and the first approach being to act like a dick, do you seriously think that doing that doesn’t have implications down the line ?? Yes the employer was wrong in this instance either by mistake or not, but acting like a dick in return just further degrades the relationship and that a bad move, if I make a mistake I want someone to come back and point it out discreetly, we all make mistakes, and when an employee comes back at me acting like an asshole, I remember that down the line.


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    #26
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,771 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    _Brian wrote: »
    That poster is 100% correct.
    I’ve worked in a number of companies Amy supervisor and manager level amd an employee displaying that attitude would be watched tight, I’ve been instructed on a few occasions to manage such employees out the door, and in some instances I’ve done it too.

    I smile to myself when people give the advice to go back to your employer and the first approach being to act like a dick, do you seriously think that doing that doesn’t have implications down the line ?? Yes the employer was wrong in this instance either by mistake or not, but acting like a dick in return just further degrades the relationship and that a bad move, if I make a mistake I want someone to come back and point it out discreetly, we all make mistakes, and when an employee comes back at me acting like an asshole, I remember that down the line.

    We differ in that. I don't think taking the holidays makes me a dick. There's only one person in this following the law and its the OP.


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    #27
    HalfAndHalf
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭HalfAndHalf


    _Brian wrote: »
    That poster is 100% correct.
    I’ve worked in a number of companies Amy supervisor and manager level amd an employee displaying that attitude would be watched tight, I’ve been instructed on a few occasions to manage such employees out the door, and in some instances I’ve done it too.

    I smile to myself when people give the advice to go back to your employer and the first approach being to act like a dick, do you seriously think that doing that doesn’t have implications down the line ?? Yes the employer was wrong in this instance either by mistake or not, but acting like a dick in return just further degrades the relationship and that a bad move, if I make a mistake I want someone to come back and point it out discreetly, we all make mistakes, and when an employee comes back at me acting like an asshole, I remember that down the line.

    You’re admitting on a public forum that if an employee knows their employment rights you’ve performance managed (set them up to fail) out the door.

    And you call the OP a dick for their troubles.

    Wow.


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    #28
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Oafley Jones wrote: »
    Out of curiosity; why hasn’t this poster been banned for trolling. It’s just a constant stream of absolute nonsense from them. I’m convinced they’ve never actually held a job with any level of responsibility at all. It’s like they’ve learned everything about the workplace from watching hard nosed business characters on American TV.

    Haha, I could have guessed the poster you are referring to without you having to quote them

    Btw, that’s an impressive number of thanks your post has received in a short period of time so plenty of other posters feeling the same


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    #29
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Isn't this 'case closed'..?! The OP may have edited an earlier post, but they stated there was a 'mistake', they are free to go on their holidays.


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    #30
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,632 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    givyjoe wrote: »
    Isn't this 'case closed'..?! The OP may have edited an earlier post, but they stated there was a 'mistake', they are free to go on their holidays.

    It's amazing how understanding you rights can change the situation. Middle managers in large organisation's can often take actions without realising the implications. Companies in general do not want to lose good workers even ones that act the dick now and again.

    Every company has a leave policy. The policy is not defined by the working time act. Most have criteria for annual leave. Yes managers can refuse leave but when granted it should require extraordinary circumstances to withdraw the leave. Even if necessary it a negotiation not a directive is where it should start.

    I once saw a situation where two years running the same employee was requested to cancel his leave because he was a single person. In both cases there was other options available. The second time he refused and pointed out that he obliged the company the previous year.

    Extraordinary circumstances are not because someone else is out sick. A manager can alway carry out the required work or delegate it to another worker under his direct supervision.

    I have seen situations where it was just the easy option to cancel leave or leave a leave request hanging even though there may be set protocol's in place. It amazing how much difference a good manager makes in these situations. They manage the situation not take the easy option.

    I say HR knew that there was no extraordinary reason to cancel his leave just a poor management reaction to a situation

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #31
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,632 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Mayo_fan wrote: »
    Haha, I could have guessed the poster you are referring to without you having to quote them

    Btw, that’s an impressive number of thanks your post has received in a short period of time so plenty of other posters feeling the same

    I would not think anybody should be banned. But as I pointed out the vast majority of employers do not sack people or manage people out the door for pointing out there rights. After a 40 year's in direct employment I have found that people who are reasonable are valued by employers. If such an employee makes a point about what they consider an unfair situation then any of these employers will not lose a good workers for the same of making a point that they rule inside the workplace.

    As well the risk of an unfair dismissal case would be huge. The costs can be massive and for larger companies the publicity unwanted especially if they are continually trying to attract employees.

    It amazing what employer's will do to retain good employees

    Slava Ukrainii



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