Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Podge_irl · 06-07-2021 11:07am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

They may be refusing to eat it because of potentially different standards (which should not yet be the case) or they may simply be choosing to eat EU sourced food simply because they would rather that than food from a third country. Solidarity of sorts.
In terms of non-food items, if buying online, I've changed to using EU based sources - usually cheaper and as efficient.

Except on this thread posters were explicitly referencing the former. Which is silly.

If people want to do the latter then indeed fire ahead.

Padre_Pio · 06-07-2021 11:08am

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not sure of your nationality but Britain and British people have always realised things like NATO or WW2 was a joint effort by many nations.
Admittedly,that might be incomprehensible if you country wasn't part of those moments in history.

Ah, WW2. The mainstay of Brexit thinking.
Hark back to a time when you'd hardly see a brown face on the street who wasn't a servant.

A time when the plucky Brits marched off to war in defence of Belgium and gave the Hun another black eye.
The massive victory at Dunkirk, that definitely wasn't a humiliating defeat of the BEF resulting in them holing up in Britain for 4 years until the Russians and Americans were by their side.

A time when Britain peaked just before 80 years of slow, sad decline.

Sorry Rob, what was your point ? I was getting all nostalgic there for a second.

Peregrinus · 06-07-2021 11:10am

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not sure of your nationality but Britain and British people have always realised things like NATO or WW2 was a joint effort by many nations.

That's my point, Rob. Thought I'd lost you there for a bit.

If it's "a joint effort by many nations", then it's not a "British battle fleet". Glad to have helped you clear that up.

RobMc59 · 06-07-2021 12:03pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's my point, Rob. Thought I'd lost you there for a bit.

If it's "a joint effort by many nations", then it's not a "British battle fleet". Glad to have helped you clear that up.

Well,as I'm sure you are aware,all nations like to highlight their contribution to wars etc..If you have ever watched 'saving private Ryan'the Americans singlehandedly were responsible for D day according to them.
I'd also like to point out that the presence of the British aircraft carrier does project British military power on the world stage and does appear to be leading the fleet. Personally,I question the effectiveness of aircraft carriers beyond prestige on the world stage as the development of modern weapons puts such a large target at risk imo.
Anyway,getting back to countries over enthusiastic opinion of their own contribution/importance in a situation,Ireland are also guilty of that in brexit matters.
The recent antics if von der leyen resulted in a number of posters on this thread overstating irelands subsequent contribution to this being an example.

McGiver · 06-07-2021 12:11pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Panorama (Ended up being bumped down to BBC2 because of tennis so I missed the first few minutes).

Languistines fishing guy in Scotland
Lots of extra paperwork for EU sales, stressed, overworked. Talk of how he is re-focussing his business and looking to the UK and to the far east. Conveniently talking on the phone when order were coming in from Hong Kong and Singapore. Referred to an order for '200 guests' from the Hyatt in Taiwan.
Later on we saw him doing manifests and appears he is sending via airplane (mention of Heathrow/Manchester) which can't be cheap, but absolutely no discussion of profit margins etc. Would have liked to see the maths of it.

Guy&girl running vegan business from London
Lots of problems selling to EU, with Maltese customs in particular clearly having a good laugh consistently looking for 'animal hygiene certs' for their vegan products.
Stock for EU was tied up for months, lots of opening of pallets to individually label packages whilst the camera was rolling.
Expanding into Canada/USA - sales going great apparently. Nothing they couldn't have done anyway from within EU but seemed a get-up-and-go duo, wish them well.

Guy running huge truck hire company for music gigs
Huge operation, biggest supplier of gigs in Europe with 100 mega trucks. Lots of problems running it from UK so has spent £4M on a site in Holland to park his trucks. Then found out his UK drivers couldn't drive them. I didn't understand the next bit
but he apparently found a loophole to get around this, which involved sending 100 drivers to Ireland for a few weeks to get Irish truck licenses. Because "Ireland has a special rule". Can anyone explain?

Northern Ireland food distributor
Big operation (£150M turnover). Didn't have any huge horror stories to tell, small downturn in profits, just worried about the future when new rules come in in October, and thinks EU need less bureaucracy and UK ought to 'give a bit' as well, though didn't really define this.

So more or less several irrelevant examples (in grand scheme of things) used as a propaganda tool making sure that British English people carry on with the "we've to get on with it, it's going to be fine" attitude?

The vegan product case is an absolute manipulation and disgusting propaganda. Not only they use an edge case, where a small company is cought with one of the smallest EU countries which is having some sort of a bureauractic spasm/issue in a very specific case, mostly likely a clerical error or some confusion, which does happen more often than you think, to perpetuate the myth of the EU bogeyman, but they also add the cherry on top where they create a narrative how well the company is doing with exports outside of the EU, namely to Canada, the US and the Middle East and place this directly in the narritive of the EU bogeyman as well as show the "benefit" of Brexit. This is an absolute disgrace - ABSOLUTELY nothing was stopping the said company to export its products globally including the said markets while the UK was part of the EU.

MustangMick · 06-07-2021 12:19pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Well,as I'm sure you are aware,all nations like to highlight their contribution to wars etc..If you have ever watched 'saving private Ryan'the Americans singlehandedly were responsible for D day according to them.

Since when was "Saving Private Ryan" a factual documentary about WW2 issued by the US Government? I must have missed that memo :-)
It's a work of fiction...

RobMc59 · 06-07-2021 12:38pm

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Ah, WW2. The mainstay of Brexit thinking.
Hark back to a time when you'd hardly see a brown face on the street who wasn't a servant.

A time when the plucky Brits marched off to war in defence of Belgium and gave the Hun another black eye.
The massive victory at Dunkirk, that definitely wasn't a humiliating defeat of the BEF resulting in them holing up in Britain for 4 years until the Russians and Americans were by their side.

A time when Britain peaked just before 80 years of slow, sad decline.

Sorry Rob, what was your point ? I was getting all nostalgic there for a second.

I've noticed an increase in this type of post recently,remarks about skin colour or India being 'a kip'(Irish word for 'a state' I believe).
All that about plucky Britain marching off to war..Well yes that's how its seen here.
A number of posters seem to believe if you're not part if the EU you are an inferior 3rd status country.

ambro25 · 06-07-2021 12:42pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'd also like to point out that the presence of the British aircraft carrier does project British military power on the world stage and does appear to be leading the fleet. Personally,I question the effectiveness of aircraft carriers beyond prestige on the world stage as the development of modern weapons puts such a large target at risk imo.

Would you have an opinion about the trade power-projecting capacity and effectiveness of royal yachts, to help bring this thread still further back on topic?

Now then, what are these “antics” of Von der Leyden you speak of? And how do they rate in relation to the “antics” of Lord Frost this weekend?

CelticRambler · 06-07-2021 12:49pm

McGiver wrote: »

So more or less several irrelevant examples (in grand scheme of things) used as a propaganda tool making sure that British English people carry on with the "we've to get on with it, it's going to be fine" attitude?

The vegan product case is an absolute manipulation and disgusting propaganda. Not only they use an edge case, where a small company is cought with one of the smallest EU countries which is having some sort of a bureauractic spasm/issue in a very specific case ...

Just had a look at that tweeted video and looked into the company and its product, and - like the musicians' tour trucks - it seems to be a question of the CEO not knowing just how much of her previous life was facilitated by Britain's member of the EU.

The Maltese authorities are/were correct in requiring certificates of phytosanitary compliance (veterinary checks? no, but is that in fact what was being asked?) It's the importer's responsibility to ensure that foodstuffs of plant origin are free of a long list of chemical and biological contaminants, and it appears that Ms. Ponan collects all kinds of ingredients from all over the world and does nothing/little more than press them into the shape of a snack-bar.

Is she sourcing these products herself, direct from the far-side-of-the-world producers, or is she buying them from a GB-based wholesaler? That's a question the Maltese importer needs to ask, because it defines who'll carry the can if an inspection finds something in the product that shouldn't be there. And may or may not affect what tariffs have to be paid too.

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 06-07-2021 12:53pm

There are times when I think maybe we’ve lived our best days in the 1990s and early 2000s.

It seems like since the economic crisis in 2008 is been a steady decline.

When you look at the toxicity of Brexit, Northern Ireland looking like the GFA is being unravelled, the aftermath of the Trump era (which may yet repeat with new players), the slide back towards authoritarian and strongman governments in many places (including several relatively recent EU members), lack of respect for systems that ensure rule of law and functioning democracies, the rise of rampant right wing stuff like anti LGBT sentiment in eastern EU states and then the utterly profound impact of the COVID pandemic, it just seems that we are just entering a much less optimistic era globally.

Honestly find threads like this one increasingly depressing. It’s just an endless circular discussion with no solutions and posters digging up WWII.

I was going to do academic research on a related topic this year, but decided not to apply as I just thought spending too long in these kinds of topics would completely destroy any enthusiasm and optimism I have left.

RobMc59 · 06-07-2021 1:26pm

ambro25 wrote: »

Would you have an opinion about the trade power-projecting capacity and effectiveness of royal yachts, to help bring this thread still further back on topic?

Now then, what are these “antics” of Von der Leyden you speak of? And how do they rate in relation to the “antics” of Lord Frost this weekend?

If you check back I pointed out I didn't bring up the Falklands and other associated British military discussions.
Regarding von der leyen, and art 16, I've been asked not to go there.

RobMc59 · 06-07-2021 1:31pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

Just had a look at that tweeted video and looked into the company and its product, and - like the musicians' tour trucks - it seems to be a question of the CEO not knowing just how much of her previous life was facilitated by Britain's member of the EU.

The Maltese authorities are/were correct in requiring certificates of phytosanitary compliance (veterinary checks? no, but is that in fact what was being asked?) It's the importer's responsibility to ensure that foodstuffs of plant origin are free of a long list of chemical and biological contaminants, and it appears that Ms. Ponan collects all kinds of ingredients from all over the world and does nothing/little more than press them into the shape of a snack-bar.

Is she sourcing these products herself, direct from the far-side-of-the-world producers, or is she buying them from a GB-based wholesaler? That's a question the Maltese importer needs to ask, because it defines who'll carry the can if an inspection finds something in the product that shouldn't be there. And may or may not affect what tariffs have to be paid too.

The Maltese authorities dogged insistence regarding paperwork and their subsequent confusion with different departments disagreeing and not knowing what paperwork was actually required was reminiscent of 'Dad's army' with hilarious total confusion ensuing.

fly_agaric · 06-07-2021 1:34pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

Yeah, something in all of that doesn't make sense. I'd be wondering if he's interpreted RoI-NI arrangements as Ireland's "special rules" and not realised that they don't extend to continental Europe.

In any case, his British drivers are still British people, and will still be limited to 90 days presence in the EU in any rolling six month period. That'll add an extra challenge and effectively require him to employ and scheduled twice the number of drivers compared to previously. Or employ Europeans and avoid the hassle.

Quite a nice summary of how intricately the EU was woven into ordinary British life - but we knew that ... :rolleyes:

I watched that one and didn't understand it (edit: possibly out of ignorance). How can drivers who do not live here + who are not EU citizens get Irish-issued licences and (presume??) whatever extra certs are needed for driving their HGVs across the EU?
Is it a loophole (aka special Irish rules as per video...some odd aspect of our relationship with the UK like common travel area) or just breaking or bending the law somehow??

Strazdas · 06-07-2021 1:38pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've noticed an increase in this type of post recently,remarks about skin colour or India being 'a kip'(Irish word for 'a state' I believe).
All that about plucky Britain marching off to war..Well yes that's how its seen here.
A number of posters seem to believe if you're not part if the EU you are an inferior 3rd status country.

Most countries in Europe see membership of the Single Market as highly desirable. The likes of Serbia, Montenegro, Albania and North Macedonia would jump at the chance to join the SM tomorrow morning if they could (and we know that Turkey would too).

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 06-07-2021 1:40pm

Perhaps just deliver the equipment trailers to a depot in Ireland and have it driven from Ireland by Irish or continental truckers?

There aren’t any special rules, other than we aren’t and won’t ever be requiring work / residence permits or visas for U.K. citizens who wish to work or live here, but those rights are limited to Ireland and don’t even apply to U.K. citizens long term resident here who wish to work on the continent. They would have to naturalise as Irish to get those rights.

The only way I could see it working is if he basically establishes an Irish business to serve the EU market. It’s probably a lot more straightforward than doing so in France, and Irish legal systems etc are much more familiar if you’re from the U.K., but it’s not like he’s any loopholes to exploit.

There’s a lot of confusion about some of this in the U.K. media and really the interview should have probed a bit more, but I guess that wasn’t the intention of the piece. It was more about illustration of a point by the programme makers.

RobMc59 · 06-07-2021 1:47pm

As a former employee of Vauxhall motors in Ellesmere Port I'm happy the owners are going to build the new battery powered vans there.
The decision was probably helped by the UK taking a leaf out of the French government's book and offering state aid to the automotive industry.

Padre_Pio · 06-07-2021 1:49pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

As a former employee of Vauxhall motors in Ellesmere Port I'm happy the owners are going to build the new battery powered vans there.
The decision was probably helped by the UK taking a leaf out of the French government's book and offering state aid to the automotive industry.

Do the French often offer assistance to Japanese car manufacturers?

Edit: Nissan is part owned by Renault, so I suppose it's the English giving assistance to French car manufacturers

fly_agaric · 06-07-2021 1:49pm

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Perhaps just deliver the equipment trailers to a depot in Ireland and have it driven from Ireland by Irish or continental truckers?

There aren’t any special rules, other than we aren’t and won’t ever be requiring work / residence permits or visas for U.K. citizens who wish to work or live here, but those rights are limited to Ireland and don’t even apply to U.K. citizens long term resident here who wish to work on the continent. They would have to naturalise as Irish to get those rights.

Yes that would work I think.

The video was somewhat implying the existing drivers were getting Irish licences and training/certs though & disruptive and all as it appears to be for that industry (music tours/concerts), presumably they are not all moving their lives to Ireland from the UK thanks to Brexit.

However these are only short videos + as other posters have mentioned the BBC are naturally making an effort to put the pro-UK govt. slant on things (this red tape is the petty EUs fault (not consequences of UK govt. actions), British business making the best of Brexit and working around the difficulties + grasping new opportunities etc...)

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 06-07-2021 1:58pm

There are plenty of entirely non-loophole, totally legitimate reasons why Ireland is a useful locational for British businesses wishing to access to the EU single market.

It’s a particularly friendly, proximate and very familiar location. If you’re an SME or a company that doesn’t have big continental presence already etc it’s a very simple move.

The amount of adjustment to setting up an operation in Ireland is a lot smaller than trying to do so in France, Belgium, the Netherlands etc

Same language, very similar business culture, legal frameworks and concepts etc no complications whatsoever for U.K. staff wishing to work here etc. You’ll also find many qualifications etc will continue to be bilaterally mutually recognised.

It’s probably the easiest location in many respects and I suspect will be the most common stepping stone into the EU for British companies as time goes on and the dust settles.

ArmaniJeanss · 06-07-2021 2:07pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

The Maltese authorities dogged insistence regarding paperwork and their subsequent confusion with different departments disagreeing and not knowing what paperwork was actually required was reminiscent of 'Dad's army' with hilarious total confusion ensuing.

This may be true - but to an extent it misses the point.

Bureaucracy is often inflexible, it sometimes behaves stupidly and inconsistently, and being in the right doesn't always help. The people doing the bureaucracy at the coalface (the passport officer, the customs agent, the desk sergeant) are often much more afraid of giving an incorrect Oui than an incorrect Non, so they double and triple check, they confer, they pass up the line for a decision.
Being a member country or citizen of the EU cuts a swathe through 98% of that bs.

The langoustines fisherman & the vegan snackbar people will eventually come across similar bureaucratic incidents in Asia/America when their sales increase.

BonnieSituation · 06-07-2021 2:18pm

ambro25 wrote: »

For many Continent-based consumers, it’s already an enforced choice.

British food sections, of which there was one in just about every local supermarket (Auchan, Cactus, Delhaize, Smatch) and each very well stocked (Heinz, Cadbury’s, Sharwood, Hellman’s, etc) have simply vanished here in Lux. Everywhere.

Even La Provençale (which is to Lux, what eg Billingsgate is to London and Rungis is to Paris) is long out of such staple GB stuff. And if *they* don’t have it, online is your last resort.

Sure isn't Musgrave's starting to fill that gap.

J Mysterio · 06-07-2021 2:38pm

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

There are plenty of entirely non-loophole, totally legitimate reasons why Ireland is a useful locational for British businesses wishing to access to the EU single market.

It’s a particularly friendly, proximate and very familiar location. If you’re an SME or a company that doesn’t have big continental presence already etc it’s a very simple move.

The amount of adjustment to setting up an operation in Ireland is a lot smaller than trying to do so in France, Belgium, the Netherlands etc

Same language, very similar business culture, legal frameworks and concepts etc no complications whatsoever for U.K. staff wishing to work here etc. You’ll also find many qualifications etc will continue to be bilaterally mutually recognised.

It’s probably the easiest location in many respects and I suspect will be the most common stepping stone into the EU for British companies as time goes on and the dust settles.

I wonder... If the UK stopped playing politics with Northern Ireland and actually implemented the protocol with good faith... would they find that NI could actually be a fantastic bridge to Ireland and the EU?

Also, Unionists need to wake up. The Protocol can more or less maintain the status quo, whereas if they keep attacking it and destabilise NI e.g. bringing down Stormont, then all bets are off as to the future of NI.

BonnieSituation · 06-07-2021 2:42pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've noticed an increase in this type of post recently,remarks about skin colour or India being 'a kip'(Irish word for 'a state' I believe).

It's a rather versatile dialect of the language is Hiberno-English.

That being said, where did that poster say "India is a kip"? Seems a bit low brow for this forum.

All that about plucky Britain marching off to war..Well yes that's how its seen here.

Isn't that the prevailing feeling about plucky little Britain simultaneously ruling the waves and winning wars?

A number of posters seem to believe if you're not part if the EU you are an inferior 3rd status country.

You used to think that too. That's why you voted remain, right?

The Raging Bile Duct · 06-07-2021 2:58pm

Have people on here being calling India a kip? I haven't seen it and I wouldn't have thought it was very prevalent here.

ambro25 · 06-07-2021 3:06pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

If you check back I pointed out I didn't bring up the Falklands and other associated British military discussions.

and I have acknowledged that, then asked you about these oil-and-gas benefits that you brought up.

Regarding von der leyen, and art 16, I've been asked not to go there.

Salutarily so, given the political and factual reality of the chain of events on each side.

You are perfectly entitled to see and argue the best of you pro-British corner, and it does you much credit to persevere on here. All the same, that does nothing to validate or vindicate the alternative worldview on which it is, seemingly, frequently based.

There’s no bias involved in comparing facts against their misrepresentation, either. If the facts are black and white and the EU27 are calling them black and white, but the UK can only call them rainbow-hued out of its political self-snookering, arguing that the facts are black and white in here has nowt to do with a pro-this or -that side, it’s merely arguing facts in the face of misrepresentations.

RobMc59 wrote: »

As a former employee of Vauxhall motors in Ellesmere Port I'm happy the owners are going to build the new battery powered vans there.
The decision was probably helped by the UK taking a leaf out of the French government's book and offering state aid to the automotive industry.

Ellesmere Port belongs to Stellantis these days, by the way.

It’s a Dutch joint-venture between FIAT Chrysler (US-IT) and PSA (FR).

The Raging Bile Duct · 06-07-2021 3:08pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

“Kip” is an English slang as per urban dictionary, you rarely hear it being used on this side of the little pond

I'd hear it the whole time in Ireland.

Seth Brundle · 06-07-2021 3:21pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've noticed an increase in this type of post recently,remarks about skin colour or India being 'a kip'(Irish word for 'a state' I believe).

Can you please provide a link to posts claiming that India being a "kip"?
A quick search does not reveal anything in this thread earlier than your above reference.

RobMc59 wrote: »

A number of posters seem to believe if you're not part if the EU you are an inferior 3rd status country.

I don't think anyone has claimed this.
What they may have claimed is that the UK has walked away from being part of the wealthiest marked into an inferior position as a third country. Is this incorrect? The UK has thrown away lucrative markets in favour of the possibility of deals with much smaller and poorer markets on the other side of the world.
Again, a citation would help.

McGiver · 06-07-2021 3:27pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

Just had a look at that tweeted video and looked into the company and its product, and - like the musicians' tour trucks - it seems to be a question of the CEO not knowing just how much of her previous life was facilitated by Britain's member of the EU.

The Maltese authorities are/were correct in requiring certificates of phytosanitary compliance (veterinary checks? no, but is that in fact what was being asked?) It's the importer's responsibility to ensure that foodstuffs of plant origin are free of a long list of chemical and biological contaminants, and it appears that Ms. Ponan collects all kinds of ingredients from all over the world and does nothing/little more than press them into the shape of a snack-bar.

Is she sourcing these products herself, direct from the far-side-of-the-world producers, or is she buying them from a GB-based wholesaler? That's a question the Maltese importer needs to ask, because it defines who'll carry the can if an inspection finds something in the product that shouldn't be there. And may or may not affect what tariffs have to be paid too.

Are you confident about this being phytosanitary reqs/regs?

If so, then the issue was basically "lost in translation" on the Maltese side as in they meant something else than how they called it in English (quite likely).
Or the other option is Ms Ponan didn't understand what the Maltese side were asking for (more likely). And/or she didn't describe the issue in question properly/correctly in the "documentary" (also very likely).

RobMc59 · 06-07-2021 3:56pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Can you please provide a link to posts claiming that India being a "kip"?
A quick search does not reveal anything in this thread earlier than your above reference.

I don't think anyone has claimed this.
What they may have claimed is that the UK has walked away from being part of the wealthiest marked into an inferior position as a third country. Is this incorrect? The UK has thrown away lucrative markets in favour of the possibility of deals with much smaller and poorer markets on the other side of the world.
Again, a citation would help.

The reference to India being 'a kip'was over in the AZ thread.

ClosedAccountFuzzy · 06-07-2021 4:05pm

Well it’s a potentially huge economic boon for Northern Ireland but the DUP and others don’t care about anything but symbols of national identity.

They could be doing a extremely well out of this but the way things are going that’s unlikely as the situation is set to be unstable with no way of being sure of regulatory environments being maintained. It’s all at the whim of quite extreme politics, not pragmatism.

The U.K. media also can only see it as a negative. The whole thing is presented as an imposition when in reality it was a huge opportunity for NI to exist pretty much without any significant impacts of Brexit.

Instead, it’s being turned into nationalist politics, being largely driven out of London and just fanning flames in NI.

It’s not going to work now. Don’t kid yourselves about it either. No FDI investors in their right mind would locate there until it’s genuinely stable and predictable and it’s absolutely not right now.

The reality of the real world is nobody cares about flags, sausages or bonfires. They care about predicable, stable regulatory environments with no risk of some political whim undermining flow of business. At present, that isn’t what Northern Ireland offers. You’ve a constant risk to the protocol and some notion that it may be voted upon again in 2024.

So the general response is going to be to give the place a wide birth until after 2024.

That’s just the practical reality of it. There’s nothing political or personal in that.

Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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