Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

eastwest · 26-06-2021 5:07pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Could also ask the council for the 5000 replicated copies of the greenway submission for the Development Plan. They will all need recycling fairly soon.

Shocking isn't it? The plebs are organised, they've forgotten their place in the scheme of things.
What next, they'll be asking county councils to be transparent and represent them?

ShaneC1600 · 26-06-2021 10:17pm

eastwest wrote: »

Shocking isn't it? The plebs are organised, they've forgotten their place in the scheme of things.
What next, they'll be asking county councils to be transparent and represent them?

Yep, seriously organised and well equipped with 5000 lucky cards, ready to be sent and dropped in to a council near you, or at least near if your from Galway!

ezstreet5 · 26-06-2021 11:36pm

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Yep, seriously organised and well equipped with 5000 lucky cards, ready to be sent and dropped in to a council near you, or at least near if your from Galway!

ouch!

westtip · 27-06-2021 1:58am

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Could also ask the council for the 5000 replicated copies of the greenway submission for the Development Plan. They will all need recycling fairly soon.

Yep Mayo county council has to deal with 1,000 greenway submissions on the county plan, I think what its actually called is people in their droves participating in the democratic process. Hard to deal with isn't it.

ShaneC1600 · 28-06-2021 11:30pm

westtip wrote: »

Yep Mayo county council has to deal with 1,000 greenway submissions on the county plan, I think what its actually called is people in their droves participating in the democratic process. Hard to deal with isn't it.

Well kinda, similar to maybe if China went democratic and they said they would fill in your ballot for you, you just need to agree ðŸ˜€

eastwest · 29-06-2021 9:06am

I see some of the WOT stalwarts are branching out into advising on other areas of public policy.
https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/48907-people-will-get-pneumonia-if-indoor-dining-remains-closed-claims-mayo-councillor

Sam Russell · 29-06-2021 10:11am

eastwest wrote: »

I see some of the WOT stalwarts are branching out into advising on other areas of public policy.
https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/48907-people-will-get-pneumonia-if-indoor-dining-remains-closed-claims-mayo-councillor

From the article heading.

People will get pneumonia if indoor dining remains closed, claims Mayo Councillor

It is summer, so they might get sunburnt, but not pneumonia - obviously not in the real world.

Decades · 29-06-2021 11:34am

I'm backing this - West on Track are proposing a Quiet Man Greenway ... only 700M, but it's a start. https://www.facebook.com/groups/213079802087801/posts/4470283366367402/

ezstreet5 · 29-06-2021 6:55pm

Finally just getting to this new WOT-published appraisal report. Agree that a lot of the opening material is superfluous for a rail review & CBA. It may be interesting for historians, but not for transport planners. The WOT analysis does not actually begin until halfway through.

The build costs are really going to be a significant driver, though. EY says that those are €263.8m and WOT says they are €153.8m. Given that Phase 1 cost €106.5m for 58km and included five new/refurbished stations, I can't see the Phase 2/3 costs exceeding WOT's estimate. Phases 2/3 would be 6km shorter, and include three fewer stations. On this point, I would have to reject EY's costs as being "officially" exorbitant and incorrect. Perhaps EY were just trying to avoid the embarrassment of a cost overrun, and went a little (way) to far to protect themselves.

29-06-2021 7:10pm

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Finally just getting to this new WOT-published appraisal report. Agree that a lot of the opening material is superfluous for a rail review & CBA. It may be interesting for historians, but not for transport planners. The WOT analysis does not actually begin until halfway through.

The build costs are really going to be a significant driver, though. EY says that those are €263.8m and WOT says they are €153.8m. Given that Phase 1 cost €106.5m for 58km and included five new/refurbished stations, I can't see the Phase 2/3 costs exceeding WOT's estimate. Phases 2/3 would be 6km shorter, and include three fewer stations. On this point, I would have to reject EY's costs as being "officially" exorbitant and incorrect. Perhaps EY were just trying to avoid the embarrassment of a cost overrun, and went a little (way) to far to protect themselves.

So a few things

You say phase 1 cost 106.5m. Don't forget that was against WOT's estimate of 76m, so it ended up being 40% higher than their makey uppey numbers so they have form in being wayyyyy off

Next, you say you reject EY's costs. Thats fine. The important thing is their costs have been accepted by Cabinet, Dept of Transport & IE. Whether you or I accept them is irrelevant

On a final note, its great to see the consultants have been appointed for the Galway section of the greenway, The Quiet Man Greenway.

A consultant has been appointed to lead a feasibility study on the Quiet Man Greenway between Athenry and Milltown.

The proposed amenity has been the subject of long-running local campaigns and would run for 47km, connecting Athenry, Ballyglunin, Tuam and Milltown.

Earlier this year, €75 thousand was allocated for the carrying out of a feasibility study.

Galway East Deputy Ciaran Cannon says a consultant has now been appointed to lead that process.

He points out that two previous studies have outlined how the disused rail line will not be needed for any rail service for the foreseeable future.

Deputy Cannon is hopeful we’ll have a final answer on the future of the greenway by the end of the year.

ezstreet5 · 29-06-2021 7:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

So a few things

You say phase 1 cost 106.5m. Don't forget that was against WOT's estimate of 76m, so it ended up being 40% higher than their makey uppey numbers so they have form in being wayyyyy off

The real costs for Phase 1 were €106.5 million, so that's a valid data point. Once real data becomes available, the accuracy of prior forecasts becomes unimportant. And based on the real data of that time, I would again reject EY's cost on this current item.

Deleted User wrote: »

Next, you say you reject EY's costs. Thats fine. The important thing is their costs have been accepted by Cabinet, Dept of Transport & IE. Whether you or I accept them is irrelevant

You are right that we are not the decision makers, but I would also reject the notion that DTTAS and/or Irish Rail always act impartially and in the best interest of the State and the Province. Those working closely with civil servants understand that departments can be biased for any number of reasons. So I cannot accept bad data on an "appeal to authority" fallacy.

Deleted User wrote: »

On a final note, its great to see the consultants have been appointed for the Galway section of the greenway, The Quiet Man Greenway.

OK.

ShaneC1600 · 29-06-2021 11:18pm

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Finally just getting to this new WOT-published appraisal report. Agree that a lot of the opening material is superfluous for a rail review & CBA. It may be interesting for historians, but not for transport planners. The WOT analysis does not actually begin until halfway through.

The build costs are really going to be a significant driver, though. EY says that those are €263.8m and WOT says they are €153.8m. Given that Phase 1 cost €106.5m for 58km and included five new/refurbished stations, I can't see the Phase 2/3 costs exceeding WOT's estimate. Phases 2/3 would be 6km shorter, and include three fewer stations. On this point, I would have to reject EY's costs as being "officially" exorbitant and incorrect. Perhaps EY were just trying to avoid the embarrassment of a cost overrun, and went a little (way) to far to protect themselves.

I thought EY based their costs on a recent track renewal in the UK which was a double track section which would explain the higher costs, although they did have meetings with IE but I don't think they used the information but I could be wrong.

westtip · 30-06-2021 1:03pm

Just a thought on the lobbyist West on Track report regarding Tourism. The EY report mentions 23,000 tourists per annum using the, WOT in their usual robust forecasts say this could rise to 80,000 per annum by 2030 (assuming the line was built by 2025 I think!), In another part of the lobbyist report they state Westport is likely to be the biggest beneficiary tourism-wise of the reopening of Athenry – Claremorris An interesting thought, but what this simple statement shows us is this, small towns say like Claremorris, will not benefit from the tourists on the railway line as people will simply not get off, you cannot monetise tourists on a train looking out the window at your local townland. They travel from one tourist hotspot to anther. That is just a point to make. The other issue is numbers.

It is always difficult to get up to date numbers and in many respects it is pre-covid numbers we need to look at, but consider this, the Waterford greenway hit 280,000 visitors and users in 2019 and they weren't just arriving in tourist hotspots like Dungarvan and Waterford they were spending money along the route. Just look at this link or google visitors using waterford greenway

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/greenways-ireland-tourist-numbers/

Being connected to the national greenway network the greenway we advocate could put half a million tourists on this route a year, they will have no choice but to stop for a coffee, lunch or a night in the smaller communities along the way, and the actual numbers a greenway will bring in will greatly surpass any railway.....and this is not counting the local usage when people locally just pop out for a day out buy a lunch or pint on the way and circulate money around their own local economy. You see the greenway is not such a bad idea and will create an economy of its own.

ezstreet5 · 30-06-2021 1:26pm

westtip wrote: »

Just a thought on the lobbyist West on Track report regarding Tourism. The EY report mentions 23,000 tourists per annum using the, WOT in their usual robust forecasts say this could rise to 80,000 per annum by 2030 (assuming the line was built by 2025 I think!), In another part of the lobbyist report they state Westport is likely to be the biggest beneficiary tourism-wise of the reopening of Athenry – Claremorris An interesting thought, but what this simple statement shows us is this, small towns say like Claremorris, will not benefit from the tourists on the railway line as people will simply not get off, you cannot monetise tourists on a train looking out the window at your local townland. They travel from one tourist hotspot to anther. That is just a point to make. The other issue is numbers.

Pejoratives aside, I think you are wrong on this point. I think both reports agree on 23,000 tourists with respect to the CBA.

westtip wrote: »

It is always difficult to get up to date numbers and in many respects it is pre-covid numbers we need to look at, but consider this, the Waterford greenway hit 280,000 visitors and users in 2019 and they weren't just arriving in tourist hotspots like Dungarvan and Waterford they were spending money along the route. Just look at this link or google visitors using waterford greenway

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/greenways-ireland-tourist-numbers/.

It's a bit obtuse and simple to say that if we build a bicycle trail, we will have the same results as Waterford or the Great Western Greenway. There is a difference. We will be akin to the Old Rail Trail, and perhaps not even rise to that level as we are not part of a Eurovelo route.

westtip wrote: »

Being connected to the national greenway network the greenway we advocate could put half a million tourists on this route a year, they will have no choice but to stop for a coffee, lunch or a night in the smaller communities along the way, and the actual numbers a greenway will bring in will greatly surpass any railway.....and this is not counting the local usage when people locally just pop out for a day out buy a lunch or pint on the way and circulate money around their own local economy. You see the greenway is not such a bad idea and will create an economy of its own.

We are unconnected. Perhaps we will be depending on the Athlone to Galway route decision, but as of now, it is a disconnected, inland segment.

westtip · 30-06-2021 1:39pm

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Pejoratives aside, I think you are wrong on this point. I think both reports agree on 23,000 tourists with respect to the CBA.

It's a bit obtuse and simple to say that if we build a bicycle trail, we will have the same results as Waterford or the Great Western Greenway. There is a difference. We will be akin to the Old Rail Trail, and perhaps not even rise to that level as we are not part of a Eurovelo route.

We are unconnected. Perhaps we will be depending on the Athlone to Galway route decision, but as of now, it is a disconnected, inland segment.

Well 23,000 tourists is even worse than the 80,000 they do point to in the lobbyist report.

Obtuse is your opinion, I am not suggesting visitors will come to visit the Western rail trail just because it is there, but connectivity is why they will use it. Dublin Galway will be built it and will more than likely go through Athenry based on the route option being considered and defacto could be connected to the Athenry Collooney route. Connection will be made to Enniskillen and to the Cavan/Lakes greenways to connect with the east coast via greenway to collooney. The Castlebar/Turlough house greenway would be a simple connection to the swinford area and Castlebar is due to be connected to Westport and the GWG. The whole point of the Western Rail Trail is that it is a key route to providing national connectivity, this will bring tourists in who spend money along the route in parts of ireland that simply don't see tourists spending money. so in truth I don't really don't accept your arguments.

Decades · 30-06-2021 1:40pm

ezstreet5 wrote: »

We will be akin to the Old Rail Trail, and perhaps not even rise to that level as we are not part of a Eurovelo route.
We are unconnected. Perhaps we will be depending on the Athlone to Galway route decision, but as of now, it is a disconnected, inland segment.

Yes, Old Rail Trail will be a more realistic user target and I don't think an Athenry-Claremorris route would even emulate those figures which are quite higher than targeted. Like the railway argument though, the tourism factor would just be a potential cherry on top. E-bikes are the game-changer here, making the idea of connecting towns, villages and hinterlands within a 20k radius or more a real viable, and proper carbon-neutral, proposition for active travel.

westtip · 30-06-2021 3:18pm

Decades wrote: »

I don't think an Athenry-Claremorris route would even emulate those figures which are quite higher than targeted. .

I am not suggesting half a million will come to just to use Athenry-claremorris-collooney, what I am suggesting it is perfectly feasible to suggest that if this route was connected to the National Greenway network it is possible anywhere btween 300k and 600k could use the route. They have to stop everyday at some stage, they will spend money on the route, and the small communities along the way will benefit, it would make a huge difference to tourism spend if it was distributed along the route, you won't get that distribution of spend from 23,000 tourist every year looking out the window on the way to westport, which as the lobbying report from West on track says that is where they will be heading, people will not get off the train to buy lunch in Ballyglunin. Greenway-nomics will transform the tourism spend along this route.

Pete_Cavan · 30-06-2021 8:59pm

You could even flip those figures and you still get the same result; 0.5m tourists on trains heading north of Athenry likely wont spend a penny south of Claremorris, 23k tourists on the greenway would likely each spend something ranging from a bottle of water to several overnight stays and meals.

I can't see any tourists getting off a train heading north from Athenry. The journey would likely be less than an hour and the faster it is the less likely they would be to get off. Getting off probably loses you the full day as you would likely have to wait for the train to complete its journey to Claremorris, return to Athenry and then get to where you are on its next northbound journey, before you can continue north.

eastwest · 01-07-2021 8:57am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

You could even flip those figures and you still get the same result; 0.5m tourists on trains heading north of Athenry likely wont spend a penny south of Claremorris, 23k tourists on the greenway would likely each spend something ranging from a bottle of water to several overnight stays and meals.

I can't see any tourists getting off a train heading north from Athenry. The journey would likely be less than an hour and the faster it is the less likely they would be to get off. Getting off probably loses you the full day as you would likely have to wait for the train to complete its journey to Claremorris, return to Athenry and then get to where you are on its next northbound journey, before you can continue north.

But Gort has experienced a tourism.boom from the 500,000 tourists that pass through it every year, surely?

Decades · 05-07-2021 5:29pm

Eamon Ryan endorsing the "Atlantic Rail Corridor" from Athenry up to " the Northwest" on Newstalk. He's bought the IRC/WOT/NWRA ARC jargon for sure. There'll be nothing doing on that line while his green arse is on that red hot-seat.

end of the road · 06-07-2021 2:35pm

yes it's a great day for the west on track campaign and for the people.
just one more brave step and that is to give it the go ahead.
very prowd and happy for all involved in that campaign.

L1011 · 06-07-2021 3:11pm

Ryan making a single statement that has absolutely no substance is not something to be happy about. It brings it no closer to happening

Sam Russell · 06-07-2021 3:33pm

L1011 wrote: »

Ryan making a single statement that has absolutely no substance is not something to be happy about. It brings it no closer to happening

He really is a loose cannon. He should try and make sure his brain is engaged before he lets his lips move.

end of the road · 06-07-2021 4:10pm

L1011 wrote: »

Ryan making a single statement that has absolutely no substance is not something to be happy about. It brings it no closer to happening

we will have to wait and see, however it's a minister seeing common sense for once on the issue and it's high profile endorsement and support for the campaign.
so still a good day.

06-07-2021 4:13pm

Decades wrote: »

Eamon Ryan endorsing the "Atlantic Rail Corridor" from Athenry up to " the Northwest" on Newstalk. He's bought the IRC/WOT/NWRA ARC jargon for sure. There'll be nothing doing on that line while his green arse is on that red hot-seat.

Cheers, just had a listen to it. Its here for others if they want a listen

He made a lot of good points across a lot of topics

He raised the point that not building the M20 and instead using the money for bypasses would allow us to bypass 20-30 towns around the country allowing for those places to be revitalized.

He talked about having more people living in city and town centers, increasing availability of broadband and amenities in such places. Looking to have bb fully rolled out by 2024.

He spoke about loads of investment into rail (electrification, suburban rail in Cork, new stations on existing lines, high density residential on public lands located around stations) escooter legislation, pedestrian-first infrastructure development.

He talked about using excess energy from wind to create green hydrogen, off-shore wind, using excess heat from data centers to provide heating/hot water for residential properties, rewetting bogs, massive expansion of forestry, changing how farmers farm etc

Loads and loads and loads of really good stuff

With regards to the Western Transport Corridor he stated that theres a line already there so it might make economic sense to reopen that line. The rail review is looking at that.

However based on the last few reports, its unlikely to find any economic justification for reopening the line. Its impossible to see what kind of calculations they would be able to do that would justify reopening the line at this point in time.

Maybe there is something I'm missing, but outside of emotion, I don't see any way they can justify spending the money on that line ahead of other projects with far, far higher CB ratio's.

eastwest · 06-07-2021 6:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Cheers, just had a listen to it. Its here for others if they want a listen

He made a lot of good points across a lot of topics

He raised the point that not building the M20 and instead using the money for bypasses would allow us to bypass 20-30 towns around the country allowing for those places to be revitalized.

He talked about having more people living in city and town centers, increasing availability of broadband and amenities in such places. Looking to have bb fully rolled out by 2024.

He spoke about loads of investment into rail (electrification, suburban rail in Cork, new stations on existing lines, high density residential on public lands located around stations) escooter legislation, pedestrian-first infrastructure development.

He talked about using excess energy from wind to create green hydrogen, off-shore wind, using excess heat from data centers to provide heating/hot water for residential properties, rewetting bogs, massive expansion of forestry, changing how farmers farm etc

Loads and loads and loads of really good stuff

With regards to the Western Transport Corridor he stated that theres a line already there so it might make economic sense to reopen that line. The rail review is looking at that.

However based on the last few reports, its unlikely to find any economic justification for reopening the line. Its impossible to see what kind of calculations they would be able to do that would justify reopening the line at this point in time.

Maybe there is something I'm missing, but outside of emotion, I don't see any way they can justify spending the money on that line ahead of other projects with far, far higher CB ratio's.

Even if one report (apart from an inflated lobbyist document) actually finds for a railway, it will have to get to the back of a very long queue.
And even if WOT's political wing get into government, the priority list will be difficult to satisfy. There are just too many genuine rail projects that need to be done before getting to the vanity stuff.

06-07-2021 6:50pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Cheers, just had a listen to it. Its here for others if they want a listen

He made a lot of good points across a lot of topics

He raised the point that not building the M20 and instead using the money for bypasses would allow us to bypass 20-30 towns around the country allowing for those places to be revitalized.

He talked about having more people living in city and town centers, increasing availability of broadband and amenities in such places. Looking to have bb fully rolled out by 2024.

He spoke about loads of investment into rail (electrification, suburban rail in Cork, new stations on existing lines, high density residential on public lands located around stations) escooter legislation, pedestrian-first infrastructure development.

He talked about using excess energy from wind to create green hydrogen, off-shore wind, using excess heat from data centers to provide heating/hot water for residential properties, rewetting bogs, massive expansion of forestry, changing how farmers farm etc

Loads and loads and loads of really good stuff

With regards to the Western Transport Corridor he stated that theres a line already there so it might make economic sense to reopen that line. The rail review is looking at that.

However based on the last few reports, its unlikely to find any economic justification for reopening the line. Its impossible to see what kind of calculations they would be able to do that would justify reopening the line at this point in time.

Maybe there is something I'm missing, but outside of emotion, I don't see any way they can justify spending the money on that line ahead of other projects with far, far higher CB ratio's.

The M20 needs to be built. Simple as. No bollox acting with bypasses or road upgrades. Just a motorway from cork to Limerick.

westtip · 18-07-2021 11:44am

Remember the Velorail in Kiltimagh. they won't like this in County Hall in Castlebar, Department officials crawling all over them.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/local-authority-pays-back-80000-after-funding-overlap-40664218.html

D'Peoples Voice · 18-07-2021 1:12pm

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626938#Comment_117626938

Sums up politicians in Ireland🙄

[quote]The project, which is under construction, received a bigger funding allocation than any other local authority project in 2017, according to records released under the Freedom of Information Act.

In 2017 a senior civil servant noted that the project had the “least compelling case” for additional support. However the funding was approved by then minster and Mayo TD Michael Ring.[/quote]

19-07-2021 12:14am

Oh my, that's embarrassing

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

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